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Why Atheism?

Why Atheism?
(04-02-2024, 02:53 PM)Inkubus Wrote: It's hardly important I'm just curious but how is this wanker managing to hide text, It shows up when you hit the text button.

Well, maybe "who" matters. And maybe how it is send or read?
A bully hides his fears with fake bravado. That is the opposite of self-assertiveness.
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Why Atheism?
Why Atheism? Because truth is the central pillar of all justice and righteousness.
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Why Atheism?
(04-02-2024, 02:32 PM)SteveII Wrote: First, nowhere ever is God conceived of as an anthropomorphic being.

Of course he does; especially in Christianity and Judaism. In those religion God creates humans in his own image which, at the time these words were written, means looking like God. God is not only describe as anthropomorphic, but specifically as man. His body is too radiant to be looked at directly though according to certain verses and traditions. 

In Christianity, God is so anthropomorphic that it literally is both fully human and fully divine at the same time. You can't be more anthropomorphic than that. Jesus was God and ate food, shat, pissed, sweated, talked and died like a human.

Finally through the entire Bible, God is shown to communicate and think in a way that is both understandable and relatable to humans which is a halmark of anthropomorphism. While, different, his mind is relatable and similar to that human, but better and greater.

It's the general consensus in scholars of religion and Christianity that both Hebrews and early Christians, those who wrote the Bible, believed in a physical God with a human looking body who dwells in the heavens. The transcendental God who is said to be maximalist and prime mover is a later creation much like a character of Satan as a singular person who is the arch-enemy of God.

Quote:That is something you made up quite recently and is an utter misunderstanding of anything remotely close to Christianity. Remember that all that existed before there was anything else was God so you have to remember that the conception of God includes actually being the ultimate reality.

This is a rather mid to late medieval notion of God that was completely abscent from Ancient Hebrew societies and in early Christianism and only got debated and integrated as greco-roman philosophical influence started to be integrated in Christian theology and debates in late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages. Hell, many early Christians did not even considered Jesus to be a literal God. This vision of God as the prime mover and ultimate reality is largely the product of Thomas Aquinas who, despite not being the first to mention it, was the one who popularised and formalized such belief.

Quote:Second, just as a matter of logic, the number of facts from the beginning of the physical universe to this day are not infinite. "Virtually infini" is a stupid concept if you think about it.  The difference between a virtually infinite number of events and an infinite number of events is...well...infinite.

Considering the universe is in constant expansion and constantly changing with no sign of it ever stopping or even slowing down at any point and time. the number of facts in the universe is infinite since it never stops growing. The OP of course, when using the term ''virtually infinite'' mean by that the number of facts in the universe is so large that even attempting to consider it's magnitude is well beyond the comprehension of any human or even human collective and constantly growing. A mind capable of processing such knowledge would be so beyond human that it's presentation in mythology and religious scriptures would seem ridiculous. Equally, the idea of a deity requiring omniscience to be a deity is equally ridiculous. Does a being really need to know every single detail about everything all the time to be considered a God? I would say probably not. The same goes for omnipotence. I don't think someone seriously requires a being to be capable of absolutely everything to be considered divine. Almost all gods in the history of human religion, if not all of them, were neither. The Ancient Hebrew didn't believe their god to be omnipotent nor omniscient, not even close to it. Only towards the greco-roman period did this concept started to make its way into their theology and even then, mostly as an hyperbole. 
 
Quote:God's knowledge is not passive but is fundamentally linked to God's creative and sustaining action in the universe. So, considering an entity so conceived, do you think that the miscount of the grains of salt on someone's eggs is possible or might be a defeater for the concept of divine omniscience?

Absolutely, it would be confusing omnipotence for omniscience. The number of grain of salt in someone's egg is a knowledge. If God doesn't know that, he is not, by definition, omniscient. Omniscience is knowing everything about everything all the time. You are simply moving the goal post and attempting to dodge a philosophical problem by gining up definitions out of nowhere, with no justification, using as many loaded and pseudo-philosophical terms as possible to create the illusion of plausibility. This is not philosophy or even theology. At that point, you are down bad apologetics.
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Why Atheism?
The number of points on a line 1 inch long is infinite.  The distance between each of these points and the infinity of other points is infinite.  The distances expressed as inches, millimeters, miles, fathoms, lightyears, parsecs, and an infinite number of other metrics compounds the infinity.  The ratios of distances between the left half and the right half delineated by an infinity of random points on the line are infinite.

Of course the count of possible facts is infinite.  Add to that the meta-knowledge about the facts:  how many minds know about particular facts, when was the knowledge acquired, how was the knowledge acquired, how much of the knowledge is erroneous, how much is accurate, which of the facts are documented, and on and on to infinity.

All that infinity in a single stretch of distance 1 inch long.  How many of those are there?  An infinite number.

I personally think the property of omniscience was developed in order to prevent a deity from being limited.  A limited deity might possibly be unable to meet a believer's demand for some specific favor.  Only an unlimited deity could sustain a believer's fantasy that the unsolvable problem facing him has a solution and that the deity would only be too happy to solve it for him.  Hence omniscience.

But it's a ludicrous concept, as shown.
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Why Atheism?
Steve reminds me of reformist Muslims, pitching retconned ideas, not because they're more likely to be true, but rather because they're easier to sell.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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Why Atheism?
All of these answers are compelling and interesting. Being raised Baptist, I've now been atheist for about 30 years, give or take, and I find that atheists have all sorts of reasons for their position on gods. I truly believe that learning enough about history, science, religion and many other subjects inevitably leads to an understanding that no religious modality that we know of makes any rational, logical sense. They simply don't hold together. When I'm posed this question now, I'm more apt to respond with the question, why believe in religion? It makes far less sense unless you've accepted the indoctrination and aren't intellectually adventurous enough to learn the truth about existence.
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Why Atheism?
(04-02-2024, 04:28 PM)airportkid Wrote: The number of points on a line 1 inch long is infinite.  The distance between each of these points and the infinity of other points is infinite.  The distances expressed as inches, millimeters, miles, fathoms, lightyears, parsecs, and an infinite number of other metrics compounds the infinity.  The ratios of distances between the left half and the right half delineated by an infinity of random points on the line are infinite.

Of course the count of possible facts is infinite.  Add to that the meta-knowledge about the facts:  how many minds know about particular facts, when was the knowledge acquired, how was the knowledge acquired, how much of the knowledge is erroneous, how much is accurate, which of the facts are documented, and on and on to infinity.

All that infinity in a single stretch of distance 1 inch long.  How many of those are there?  An infinite number.

I personally think the property of omniscience was developed in order to prevent a deity from being limited.  A limited deity might possibly be unable to meet a believer's demand for some specific favor.  Only an unlimited deity could sustain a believer's fantasy that the unsolvable problem facing him has a solution and that the deity would only be too happy to solve it for him.  Hence omniscience.

But it's a ludicrous concept, as shown.

I am sometimes amused that friends sometimes think that there are greater and lesser amounts of infinity.
A bully hides his fears with fake bravado. That is the opposite of self-assertiveness.
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Why Atheism?
(04-02-2024, 04:52 PM)Dānu Wrote: ... pitching retconned ideas ...

I'll be damned, had to look that word up.  That's a useful word.  Thanks!  Smile
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Why Atheism?
(04-02-2024, 04:54 PM)The Paladin Wrote: All of these answers are compelling and interesting.  Being raised Baptist, I've now been atheist for about 30 years, give or take, and I find that atheists have all sorts of reasons for their position on gods.  I truly believe that learning enough about history, science, religion and many other subjects inevitably leads to an understanding that no religious modality that we know of makes any rational, logical sense.  They simply don't hold together.  When I'm posed this question now, I'm more apt to respond with the question, why believe in religion?  It makes far less sense unless you've accepted the indoctrination and aren't intellectually adventurous enough to learn the truth about existence.

Welcome to the forum btw.
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Why Atheism?
Why do you want to think critically and require justification for your beliefs ?

I don't get it. Being gullible is so much easier.
Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
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Why Atheism?
Quote:why believe in religion?

Primarily I think it comes down to convenience.  Most people, unlike the occasional troll which finds his way to our door, don't ever think about religion.  They simply profess to be a member of a certain tribe because it is easier than going through all the bullshit entailed by rejecting it.

Religion is the lazy man's way of doing things.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Why Atheism?
(04-02-2024, 03:56 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(04-02-2024, 02:32 PM)SteveII Wrote: First, nowhere ever is God conceived of as an anthropomorphic being.

Of course he does; especially in Christianity and Judaism. In those religion God creates humans in his own image which, at the time these words were written, means looking like God. God is not only describe as anthropomorphic, but specifically as man. His body is too radiant to be looked at directly though according to certain verses and traditions. 

In Christianity, God is so anthropomorphic that it literally is both fully human and fully divine at the same time. You can't be more anthropomorphic than that. Jesus was God and ate food, shat, pissed, sweated, talked and died like a human.

Finally through the entire Bible, God is shown to communicate and think in a way that is both understandable and relatable to humans which is a halmark of anthropomorphism. While, different, his mind is relatable and similar to that human, but better and greater.

It's the general consensus in scholars of religion and Christianity that both Hebrews and early Christians, those who wrote the Bible, believed in a physical God with a human looking body who dwells in the heavens. The transcendental God who is said to be maximalist and prime mover is a later creation much like a character of Satan as a singular person who is the arch-enemy of God.

Quote:That is something you made up quite recently and is an utter misunderstanding of anything remotely close to Christianity. Remember that all that existed before there was anything else was God so you have to remember that the conception of God includes actually being the ultimate reality.

This is a rather mid to late medieval notion of God that was completely abscent from Ancient Hebrew societies and in early Christianism and only got debated and integrated as greco-roman philosophical influence started to be integrated in Christian theology and debates in late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages. Hell, many early Christians did not even considered Jesus to be a literal God. This vision of God as the prime mover and ultimate reality is largely the product of Thomas Aquinas who, despite not being the first to mention it, was the one who popularised and formalized such belief.

Quote:Second, just as a matter of logic, the number of facts from the beginning of the physical universe to this day are not infinite. "Virtually infini" is a stupid concept if you think about it.  The difference between a virtually infinite number of events and an infinite number of events is...well...infinite.

Considering the universe is in constant expansion and constantly changing with no sign of it ever stopping or even slowing down at any point and time. the number of facts in the universe is infinite since it never stops growing. The OP of course, when using the term ''virtually infinite'' mean by that the number of facts in the universe is so large that even attempting to consider it's magnitude is well beyond the comprehension of any human or even human collective and constantly growing. A mind capable of processing such knowledge would be so beyond human that it's presentation in mythology and religious scriptures would seem ridiculous. Equally, the idea of a deity requiring omniscience to be a deity is equally ridiculous. Does a being really need to know every single detail about everything all the time to be considered a God? I would say probably not. The same goes for omnipotence. I don't think someone seriously requires a being to be capable of absolutely everything to be considered divine. Almost all gods in the history of human religion, if not all of them, were neither. The Ancient Hebrew didn't believe their god to be omnipotent nor omniscient, not even close to it. Only towards the greco-roman period did this concept started to make its way into their theology and even then, mostly as an hyperbole. 
 
Quote:God's knowledge is not passive but is fundamentally linked to God's creative and sustaining action in the universe. So, considering an entity so conceived, do you think that the miscount of the grains of salt on someone's eggs is possible or might be a defeater for the concept of divine omniscience?

Absolutely, it would be confusing omnipotence for omniscience. The number of grain of salt in someone's egg is a knowledge. If God doesn't know that, he is not, by definition, omniscient. Omniscience is knowing everything about everything all the time. You are simply moving the goal post and attempting to dodge a philosophical problem by gining up definitions out of nowhere, with no justification, using as many loaded and pseudo-philosophical terms as possible to create the illusion of plausibility. This is not philosophy or even theology. At that point, you are down bad apologetics.

Because you routinely redefine terms to be just a little off what everyone else thinks of the term, I want to be clear what you believe before I reply. Do you:

A) Believe God to have a physical form even if it is of a different nature than ours (apart from the time he was on the earth as Jesus)?
B) Believe God to be transcendent and immaterial but often is written about anthropomorphically in the Bible.
C) Some other conception (please explain why it's not the same as either of the above)
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Why Atheism?
(04-03-2024, 02:40 PM)SteveII Wrote: Because you routinely redefine terms to be just a little off what everyone else thinks of the term, I want to be clear what you believe before I reply. Do you:

A) Believe God to have a physical form even if it is of a different nature than ours (apart from the time he was on the earth as Jesus)?
B) Believe God to be transcendent and immaterial but often is written about anthropomorphically in the Bible.
C) Some other conception (please explain why it's not the same as either of the above)

Anthropomorphic means "alike to humans" or with "human characterstics". The classical pictue of the Big Bad Wolf is an athropomorphic character. It walks on two legs like a human, speaks and wears cloths. If your God speaks and is presented as possessing human characteristics and emotions, then God is anthropomorphic. This is the case for the God of the Bible.

I do not believe in God. But what I know about religious traditions associated to the Bible do.

A) Believe God is physical. He has a body that can be touched and is specifically described in ancient Hebrew as a man. His body doesn't always dwell in the same reality then us in most circumstances.
B) Believe Transcendental and immaterial are characteristics commonly given today to the God of the Bible, but these are post biblical innovations derived from greco-roman philosophy. It's common to describe God in such term in the modern Orthodoxy. Despite this, God is described with very human traits when it comes down to his emotions and manners so this particular element of anthropomorphism remains present today even though the elements of anthropomorphism associated with God's body as being human-like in appearence have fallen out of fashion in Orthodoxy (though it remains a central part of the nature of God in some Christian and Jewish branches, for example the Mormons).

God is thought as and represented as anthropomorphic in scripture and theology. Furthermore, depiction of god in popular culture and religious art have the character of God being basically Zeus without the lightning bolt and more solar elements instead.
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Why Atheism?
Asking an atheist (who does not believe in any gods) if this atheist thinks the god (he does not believe in) is physical or whatever...... Facepalm
Priceless
R.I.P. Hannes
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(04-03-2024, 02:40 PM)SteveII Wrote: Because you routinely redefine terms to be just a little off what everyone else thinks of the term, I want to be clear what you believe before I reply. Do you:

A) Believe God to have a physical form even if it is of a different nature than ours (apart from the time he was on the earth as Jesus)?
B) Believe God to be transcendent and immaterial but often is written about anthropomorphically in the Bible.
C) Some other conception (please explain why it's not the same as either of the above)

I don't think atheists believe god at all, kind of what atheist means. So A,B,C only apply to you.

Your desperation and ignorance is showing.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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Stevie thinks his 'god' had a body which was nailed to a cross and then, somehow, magically managed to fly up to heaven.

Stevie is an idiot.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Why Atheism?
(04-03-2024, 03:32 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(04-03-2024, 02:40 PM)SteveII Wrote: Because you routinely redefine terms to be just a little off what everyone else thinks of the term, I want to be clear what you believe before I reply. Do you:

A) Believe God to have a physical form even if it is of a different nature than ours (apart from the time he was on the earth as Jesus)?
B) Believe God to be transcendent and immaterial but often is written about anthropomorphically in the Bible.
C) Some other conception (please explain why it's not the same as either of the above)

Anthropomorphic means "alike to humans" or with "human characterstics". The classical pictue of the Big Bad Wolf is an athropomorphic character. It walks on two legs like a human, speaks and wears cloths. If your God speaks and is presented as possessing human characteristics and emotions, then God is anthropomorphic. This is the case for the God of the Bible.

It is certainly true that the Bible uses anthropomorphic language. However, part of the definition of an anthropomorphism is recognizing that the description actually does not apply but is useful for some principle or relation or imagery the author is trying to bring out. In other words, if you think it is actually describing God (as you seem to claim below), it is not anthropomorphic language.

Quote:I do not believe in God. But what I know about religious traditions associated to the Bible do.

A) Believe God is physical. He has a body that can be touched and is specifically described in ancient Hebrew as a man. His body doesn't always dwell in the same reality then us in most circumstances.
B) Believe Transcendental and immaterial are characteristics commonly given today to the God of the Bible, but these are post biblical innovations derived from greco-roman philosophy. It's common to describe God in such term in the modern Orthodoxy. Despite this, God is described with very human traits when it comes down to his emotions and manners so this particular element of anthropomorphism remains present today even though the elements of anthropomorphism associated with God's body as being human-like in appearence have fallen out of fashion in Orthodoxy (though it remains a central part of the nature of God in some Christian and Jewish branches, for example the Mormons).

God is thought as and represented as anthropomorphic in scripture and theology. Furthermore, depiction of god in popular culture and religious art have the character of God being basically Zeus without the lightning bolt and more solar elements instead.

I don't know what you are referring to specifically, but there are a few instances where both Christians and ancient Hebrews believed God appeared as a man in the OT (Abraham, Jacob) These are referred to as theophanies (literally the Greek for God and show). Other theophanies include the burning bush, pillar of cloud/fire leading in the wilderness, the cloud/thunder/lightning that descended on Mount Sinai, the cloud that filled the tabernacle when it was dedicated, the cloud that filled the temple when it was dedicated, and auditory manifestations. These are all things that happened in the physical world. We will leave off visions and dreams, as they are not physical events (I will address it if you think it is important).

Added to this broad range of manifestations of God (many time more non-humanoid than humanoid), what else did the ancient Hebrews believe about God that would be pertinent? In the very first verse of their Torah, it says God created the heavens and the earth--a merism for the 'universe'. They believed him to be transcendent from the very first verse. Here are some representative verses specifically on that:

Deuteronomy 4:15-16 - "You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman."
1 Kings 8:27 - "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!"
Isaiah 55:8-9 - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Jeremiah 23:23-24 - "Am I only a God nearby," declares the LORD, "and not a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.
Psalm 139:7-10 - "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there."
Psalm 113:4-6 - "The LORD is exalted over all the nations, his glory above the heavens. Who is like the LORD our God, the One who sits enthroned on high, who stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth?" [the universe]
Habakkuk 3:3-4 - "God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth. His splendor was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden."

So your belief that ancient Israel and Christians believed in a humanoid God and the transcendent conception is a "post biblical innovations derived from greco-roman philosophy" is flat out wrong. You are welcome to provide references we can explore.
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Why Atheism?
ROFL2 ROFL2 ROFL2

When god is a figment of humans imagination you get to make it anything you want.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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(04-04-2024, 08:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: Psalm 113:4-6 - "The LORD is exalted over all the nations, his glory above the heavens. Who is like the LORD our God, the One who sits enthroned on high, who stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth?" [the universe]
Habakkuk 3:3-4 - "God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth. His splendor was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden."

So your belief that ancient Israel and Christians believed in a humanoid God and the transcendent conception is a "post biblical innovations derived from greco-roman philosophy" is flat out wrong. You are welcome to provide references we can explore.

Emphasis mine. Your own select verses clearly describe a male deity that "sits", "stoops", and has "hands". That's about as anthropomorphic as you're going to get.
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Why Atheism?
(04-04-2024, 09:59 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(04-04-2024, 08:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: Psalm 113:4-6 - "The LORD is exalted over all the nations, his glory above the heavens. Who is like the LORD our God, the One who sits enthroned on high, who stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth?" [the universe]
Habakkuk 3:3-4 - "God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth. His splendor was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden."

So your belief that ancient Israel and Christians believed in a humanoid God and the transcendent conception is a "post biblical innovations derived from greco-roman philosophy" is flat out wrong. You are welcome to provide references we can explore.

Emphasis mine. Your own select verses clearly describe a male deity that "sits", "stoops", and has "hands". That's about as anthropomorphic as you're going to get.

I agree. And since anthropomorphic means not actually having those attributes, I'm fine with that. These verses you highlight point out nicely my point. If one creates the universe, does one really have to "stoop down" to look at it? The male pronoun (as is 'father')is the language we use to relate to another person. Why in the world would anyone think of God as a male or an actual paternal progenitor? That does not even make sense.

It is imagery and relational language: anthropomorphic language.
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Why Atheism?
(04-02-2024, 05:15 PM)Cavebear Wrote: I am sometimes amused that friends sometimes think that there are greater and lesser amounts of infinity.

There are.  The infinity of numbers between zero and 1 is a smaller infinity than the infinite set of numbers between zero and 2.  The number of discrete infinite sets is itself infinite.

Infinite is not a straightforward mathematical concept, closer to cousin to imaginary numbers (square root of -1).  Or that 0! = 1.  Or reckoning that the word "before" is inappropriate to describing the beginning of the universe.

The we have a faculty of mind able to make sense of these counter-intuitive notions is remarkable.
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Why Atheism?
(04-04-2024, 09:24 PM)brewerb Wrote: ROFL2 ROFL2 ROFL2

When god is a figment of humans imagination you get to make it anything you want.

To wit:  Horus

[Image: horus-egyptian-god-2.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng%3Aw...%2Frscb7-1]


Of course, Horus is way cooler than this yhwh scumbag.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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(04-04-2024, 10:39 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(04-04-2024, 09:24 PM)brewerb Wrote: ROFL2 ROFL2 ROFL2

When god is a figment of humans imagination you get to make it anything you want.

To wit:  Horus

[Image: horus-egyptian-god-2.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng%3Aw...%2Frscb7-1]


Of course, Horus is way cooler than this yhwh scumbag.


Waiting for Steve to say 'that's not a real god' or something like 'that's an unfair comparison' (apples/oranges).
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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Why Atheism?
Of course he will..... ignorant religious shitheads always think their god is real and all the others are phony.

We know that they are all phony!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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(04-04-2024, 11:41 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Of course he will..... ignorant religious shitheads always think their god is real and all the others are phony.

We know that they are all phony!

Better watch out, Steve will pray to his old testament vengeful god, then we'll  all be in trouble. Priest
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