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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus

Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(01-09-2023, 03:34 AM)Minimalist Wrote:


Happy New Year

I'm still waiting for the zombie apocalypse

"Matthew 27:52
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life."
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Ehrman suffers from being around too long.  Anyone who wants to can find earlier books/arguments he made which he has now discarded.  In the mind of religitards this makes him a liar because they certainly do not appreciate that someone's views can change with more knowledge.

But as far as I can tell, he still insists that the godboy being crucified by Pilate really, really, really, did happen even though he trashes everything else in the book.

Let go with the other hand, Bart.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(01-30-2023, 11:04 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Anyone who wants to can find earlier books/arguments he made which he has now discarded.  

This is amusing though isn't it. 

Earlier books/arguments can be discarded?
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Sure.  Some people are capable of intellectual growth.


It is uncommon among religitards, though.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
This is from an Amazon book description:

"Christian apologists work hard to defend the resurrection of Jesus, despite the woefully poor descriptions of the supposed event in the New Testament. I suspect they could also rise to the challenge of proving that the Fairy Godmother in Cinderella really did transform a pumpkin into a carriage. It's no surprise that the apologetic literature defending the resurrection is enormous, but there has been considerable pushback from secular writers as well as from religious scholars who can live with a metaphorical understanding of the resurrection. But the task for the curious reader--trying to cut through all this clutter--has been made easy by Robert Conner's The Jesus Cult: 2000 Years of the Last Days. As this title suggests, Conner incisively demonstrates that a crucial element in early Christian belief--the arrival of Jesus on the clouds any day now--is just plain wrong. He also pulls together the New Testament texts that show just how incoherent the resurrection stories are: no wonder the apologists have to work so hard. In his engaging conversational writing style, Conner also shows the on-going damage--into our own times--that the Jesus Cult causes. This book is a must-read, especially for Christians who may be curious enough about their faith to do at least a little due diligence.

David Madison, Ph.D. in Biblical Studies"
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(01-31-2023, 01:20 AM)Alan V Wrote: David Madison, Ph.D. in Biblical Studies"

Yes.

TinyDave.
PhD in Cat Philosophy.
School Of Litter Tray.

Published articles;

A poop.
A poop that was cleared away.
Another poop.

I await your rebuttal to my articules
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(01-30-2023, 11:20 PM)TinyDave Wrote:
(01-30-2023, 11:04 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Anyone who wants to can find earlier books/arguments he made which he has now discarded.  

This is amusing though isn't it. 

Earlier books/arguments can be discarded?

Superstition can always be discarded. Fiction that really pretends to be factual (like alien encounters) can always be discarded. Bad arguments can always be discarded.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(01-31-2023, 01:48 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(01-30-2023, 11:20 PM)TinyDave Wrote: This is amusing though isn't it. 

Earlier books/arguments can be discarded?

Superstition can always be discarded.  Fiction that really pretends to be factual (like alien encounters) can always be discarded.  Bad arguments can always be discarded.

Do you not think that alien encounters will be regarded in they same way as superstition in the near future?

You're right though, bad arguments can always be discarded and discredited. 
Witches, Aliens and whatever comes next need to bee looked at through the lens of sense.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
I regard Alien "encounters" as superstition right now.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Aliens are the next gods
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(01-31-2023, 02:09 AM)TinyDave Wrote:
(01-31-2023, 01:48 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Superstition can always be discarded.  Fiction that really pretends to be factual (like alien encounters) can always be discarded.  Bad arguments can always be discarded.

Do you not think that alien encounters will be regarded in they same way as superstition in the near future?

You're right though, bad arguments can always be discarded and discredited. 
Witches, Aliens and whatever comes next need to bee looked at through the lens of sense.

That was a little confusing. I always hate "do you not think". LOL! But taking out the "not" always makes things clearer. So, "do I think that alien encounters will be regarded in the same way as superstition in the near future"? Well, 20% of Americans believe that extraterrestrials have visited earth. About the same % agree with more earthly superstitions (4 leaf clovers, walking under a ladder, breaking a mirror, etc).

But then, 77% of Americans are religious and I consider that "superstitious".

I expect that, as education improves and society becomes more accustomed to scientific evidence, fewer people with be as superstitious. After all, most people (kicking and screaming) have come to accept the Earth is not flat, the Earth is not the center of the Universe, and we did evolve from primate ancestors.

That is not saying there are not "aliens" out there somewhere. The universe is a huge place and the possibility for life is nearly endless through time, space, and potential biochemistry and conditions. Just not here and now...
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(01-31-2023, 01:47 AM)TinyDave Wrote:
(01-31-2023, 01:20 AM)Alan V Wrote: David Madison, Ph.D. in Biblical Studies"

TinyDave.
PhD in Cat Philosophy.
School Of Litter Tray.

I would assume that in most colleges, Bibilical study is as valid a scholarly specialization as the study of Greek literature.  That's why we have many careful and illuminating critiques of the history of how the Bible was actually compiled, its cultural significance in context, and so on.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Depends on the school. You can bet that Patriot Bible University doesn't teach the historical-critical method.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Speaking of Historical-Critical - here's Ehrman on Mythvision. I love the part where he rips the "empty tomb" horseshit to shreds!

Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2023, 04:52 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Speaking of Historical-Critical - here's Ehrman on Mythvision. I love the part where he rips the "empty tomb" horseshit to shreds!


I tried to listen to the link, but it just got too silly (and long) after a while that I had to just leave. Talk about a bunch of nonsense CRAP!

I try to understand theist discussions sometimes. But I just have to give up on the idea of any kind od sense coning from them.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Ehrman has some annoying vocal quirks.... he loves to laugh at his own jokes for example, which makes him hard to listen to.  Still, he is one of the few actual scholars who tries to write for the general public.  And his discussion of the empty tomb horseshit is spot on.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
No empty tomb.

Someone reading from Ehrman's book on How Jesus Became God.

Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus





If we have its a good thing!
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(12-05-2018, 12:12 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: Are they one in the same, the same thing.
I believe they are the same thing.
any dissenters?
please explain

They are not even close. The historical Jesus is the one historians have been able to put together using actual facts and data. A possible itinerant preacher, spreading some version of Jewish beliefs. That is about all 'History' can come up with.  The 'Biblical Jesus' is a magic man, capable of walking on water, healing the sick. spitting in people's eyes and curing them of blindness. touching lepers and curing them, raising the dead, magically altering water into wine like the priests of Dionysus before him and much more. He is the mythical hero of countless biblical. He begins in the earliest gospels not being understood and by our final gospels he is claiming to be God himself.  The two versions are nothing at all alike.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(12-05-2018, 12:12 AM)Schrodinger's Outlaw Wrote: Are they one in the same, the same thing.
I believe they are the same thing.
any dissenters?
please explain

They are not even close. The historical Jesus is the one historians have been able to put together using actual facts and data. A possible itinerant preacher, spreading some version of Jewish beliefs. That is about all 'History' can come up with.  The 'Biblical Jesus' is a magic man, capable of walking on water, healing the sick. spitting in people's eyes and curing them of blindness. touching lepers and curing them, raising the dead, magically altering water into wine like the priests of Dionysus before him and much more. He is the mythical hero of countless biblical. He begins in the earliest gospels not being understood and by our final gospels he is claiming to be God himself.  The two versions are nothing at all alike.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
This thread has resurrected..... which is more than fucking "jesus" ever did!

Welcome.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Quote:The historical Jesus is the one historians have been able to put together using actual facts and data.


One minor quibble.  The historical jesus is the 20th century creation of a bunch of theologians pretending to be historians.  Somewhere back in the depths of this thread is another post in which a list of these so -called historians was given.  I was able to look most of them up and found plenty of Divinity degrees and Theology degrees.... and damned few History degrees.  They have packaged bullshit into neat little jesus burgers and try to force them down every ones throats.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(08-07-2023, 04:34 AM)Minimalist Wrote: This thread has resurrected..... which is more than fucking "jesus" ever did!

Welcome.

I was debating this guy on reddit/debateachristian a couple days ago.  I do it for shits and giggles, plus I always learn so much about this time period and different methods of attack.    These crazy Christians don't THINK.  They basically just don't THINK.  It would be as if I showed them a rock, tell them it's a rock, handed the rock to them to feel and inspect then their response is that it's a fluffy kitten.  

They often go on a "whataboutism" tangent, trying to divert the discussion away from the subject of Christianity and the fact that the gospels aren't eyewitness accounts and were anonymously written.   This was apparently big news to this guy so he wanted a list of scholars who attest to this.  So I gave him some names.  It wasn't enough.  Then he referred me to Papias mentioning " Mark".  So I had to inform him that we only know what Papias wrote through quotes from Eusibius who quoted Irenaeus who supposedly read Papias's works,  and even with this third hand information Papias says what he read were non-organized, pithy "sayings" of Jesus that were not in the form of a sequential story.   So whatever this was, if it was anything, was not the "mark" that's in the New Testament today. 

It was fun though.  I hope someone else was reading  the conversation. Maybe they got some information on the nonsense that is Christianity which will make them stop and think, "Gee, maybe this is all a bunch of twaddle."
                                                         T4618
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(08-07-2023, 04:51 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: ... if I showed them a rock, tell them it's a rock, handed the rock to them to feel and inspect then their response is that it's a fluffy kitten ...

The bottom line question for the religious is:  How is the world better for Christ's having been in it?

Any and every answer will point to hospitals, charitable works, etc.  First of all, hospitals, charitable works, etc. serve the secular, not religious, aims of making life materially better, or more comfortable, and, secondly, function without needing religion, and are also conducted by the non-religious.  Christ's presence did not measurably increase or improve these measures.

Meanwhile any and every answer will omit answering for the endless religious strife that gravely inhibits humanitarian progress with bombs and murder.  Wasn't Christ supposed to do something about all that?

If Christ is scheduled to return someday what in the world is he waiting for?  2,000 years is a long wait that demands an explanation for the delay.

Maybe the fluffy kitten still needs time to grow up?
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Quote:These crazy Christians don't THINK.  They basically just don't THINK.



They are not allowed to think, hon.  Thinking is the antithesis of "faith." 

When this jesus shit started spreading its poison in the 5th century the church told them that "we'll do the thinking for you.... you just pay up when the collection plate comes by."

The extent of their "thinking" was "how much can I afford to give these crooks!"
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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