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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus

Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-30-2021, 07:13 AM)vulcanlogician Wrote: The thing is, faith (in an ordinary sense, not in a "belief in the otherworldly" sense) is kinda useful in our daily lives and interpersonal relationships. That's part of the problem. It's so useful, people think they can figure out cosmic truths with it. But they can't. Its usefulness only goes so far.

I agree that "faith is a totally useless method of finding out whether something is true or not." Evidence, analysis, skepticism... these are way better at sussing out the truth than faith. And faith has no business anywhere near investigations into the truth. But it still has its uses.

Since the word "faith" has been co-opted by the religious, I don't bother to use it in any way which actually makes sense. That avoids confusions.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Not a bad idea at all, Alan.  Some words should be retired.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Hey! My name means faith and I ain't retiring it Dodgy

Am reminded of this poem, called Faith, by a poet who, sadly, was executed as a communist during WWII...


Faith

"Here am I - breathing,
working,
living
and writing my poetry
(my best to it giving).
Life and I glower
across at each other
and with it I struggle
with all my power.
(my favourite bit  Angel )

Life and I quarrel,
but don't draw the moral
that I despise it.
No, just the opposite!
Though I should perish,
life with its brutal
claws of steel
still would I cherish,
still would I cherish!

Suppose round my neck they tie fast
the rope
and they ask:
"Would you like one more hour to live?"
I would instantly cry:
"Untie!
Untie!
Come, quickly untie
the rope, you devils!"
For Life there is nothing
I would not dare.
I would fly
a prototype plane in the sky,
climb into a roaring
rocket, exploring
alone
in space
distant
planets.

Still would I feel
a joyous thrill
gazing
up
at the blue sky.
Still would I feel
a joyous thrill
to be alive,
to go on living.

But look, suppose
you took - how much? -
a single grain
from this my faith,
then would I rage,
I would rage from pain
like a panther
pierced to the heart.

For what of me
would there remain?
After the theft
I'd be distraught.
To put it plainly
and more directly -
after the theft
I would be nought.

Maybe you wish
you could erase
my faith
my faith
in happy days,
my faith
that tomorrow
life will be finer,
life will be wiser?

Pray, how will you smash it?
With bullets?
No! That is useless!
Stop! It's not worth it!

My faith has strong armour
in my sturdy breast
and bullets able to shatter
my faith
do not exist,
do not exist!
"

Not a perfect translation and I'm not sure I have much faith in a better, wiser life, but...
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-30-2021, 04:58 PM)Vera Wrote: Am reminded of this poem, called Faith, by a poet who, sadly, was executed as a communist during WWII...

Faith

"Here am I - breathing,
working,
living
and writing my poetry
(my best to it giving).
Life and I glower
across at each other
and with it I struggle
with all my power.
(my favourite bit  Angel )

I don't know why one needs faith to struggle with life.  Consciousness evolved to serve the interests of the self, so it only makes sense.  From that point of view, faith is something certain people need as an additional justification for their behaviors because they assume their soul has a separate life from their body.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-30-2021, 05:45 PM)Alan V Wrote: I don't know why one needs faith to struggle with life. 

Um, I don't think that part has much to do with his faith. He's just talking about life and how despite their "struggle", he still loves it with everything he's got (and yet, was killed when he was 32).

And then he starts talking his faith - "that life will be better and wiser". That's the whole point, people have faith in a whole lot of things, not just religious concepts.

Hell, I had "faith" that things and humanity were getting and will continue to get better.

I don't anymore, but that's a different story.


Not sure if Vaptsarov even meant to oppose religious faith to his own (faith isn't necessarily or primarily a religious word in Bulgaria), like one of our most celebrated poets (and a revolutionary - against the Ottoman empire), who was an atheist, way back then, did with his poem called Prayer. And he does "pray" to "God" but, his "prayer" and "God" are not those that first come to mind:

"Oh, you, my God, my fair God,
who doesn't live in Heaven up,
but you, who are in me, my God,
into my soul and in my heart.

Not you to whom the monks and priests
make their bows and bend, not you
whom all the orthodoxal beasts
light up the sacred tapers to.

Not you who made of mud and dirt
the man, the woman, but forsakes
the human being on the Earth
to be its everlasting slave.


Not you who's consecrated kings,
the patriarchs and every Pope,
not you who's left in misery
my poor brothers in the woe.

Not you, who teaches slaves to pray,
to cry for mercy and to bear
the suffering until the grave
with their hopes in vain to cherish.


Not you, oh, God of liars, who
has blessed dishonest tyrants all,
not you, an idol of the fools,
an idol of the human foes.


But you, oh, God of sense and mind,
oh, God, defender of the slaves,
whose day the people and mankind
are going soon to celebrate.


Inspire everyone, oh, God
with love alive for freedom, then
each one will struggle as he could
with all the enemies of men.

And at the end support my arms,
when rises the revolt of slaves,
in rows of their fight at last
to find also my only grave.

Don't let abroad this vigour heart
lost in youth cool down at present.
Don't let my voice unlikely pass
silently as through the desert."

Again the translation leaves a lot to be desired but...
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-30-2021, 06:18 PM)Vera Wrote: Hell, I had "faith" that things and humanity were getting and will continue to get better.

I don't anymore, but that's a different story.

...

Again the translation leaves a lot to be desired but...

If I once had faith in anything, it was that the truth would win out over time.  Like you, I lost that faith. Ignorance seems to ebb and flow.

I don't easily understand poetry, no matter the translation.  I apparently don't have the mindset for it, just like I have no talent for languages.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-30-2021, 06:18 PM)Vera Wrote:
(07-30-2021, 05:45 PM)Alan V Wrote: I don't know why one needs faith to struggle with life. 

Um, I don't think that part has much to do with his faith. He's just talking about life and how despite their "struggle", he still loves it with everything he's got (and yet, was killed when he was 32).

And then he starts talking his faith - "that life will be better and wiser". That's the whole point, people have faith in a whole lot of things, not just religious concepts.

Hell, I had "faith" that things and humanity were getting and will continue to get better.

I don't anymore, but that's a different story.


Not sure if Vaptsarov even meant to oppose religious faith to his own (faith isn't necessarily or primarily a religious word in Bulgaria), like one of our most celebrated poets (and a revolutionary - against the Ottoman empire), who was an atheist, way back then, did with his poem called Prayer. And he does "pray" to "God" but, his "prayer" and "God" are not those that first come to mind:

"Oh, you, my God, my fair God,
who doesn't live in Heaven up,
but you, who are in me, my God,
into my soul and in my heart.

Not you to whom the monks and priests
make their bows and bend, not you
whom all the orthodoxal beasts
light up the sacred tapers to.

Not you who made of mud and dirt
the man, the woman, but forsakes
the human being on the Earth
to be its everlasting slave.


Not you who's consecrated kings,
the patriarchs and every Pope,
not you who's left in misery
my poor brothers in the woe.

Not you, who teaches slaves to pray,
to cry for mercy and to bear
the suffering until the grave
with their hopes in vain to cherish.


Not you, oh, God of liars, who
has blessed dishonest tyrants all,
not you, an idol of the fools,
an idol of the human foes.


But you, oh, God of sense and mind,
oh, God, defender of the slaves,
whose day the people and mankind
are going soon to celebrate.


Inspire everyone, oh, God
with love alive for freedom, then
each one will struggle as he could
with all the enemies of men.

And at the end support my arms,
when rises the revolt of slaves,
in rows of their fight at last
to find also my only grave.

Don't let abroad this vigour heart
lost in youth cool down at present.
Don't let my voice unlikely pass
silently as through the desert."

Again the translation leaves a lot to be desired but...

Well, faith is often defined as belief without evidence and in the case of religions this is what they're relying on to keep believing in a god or gods.  One can have hope but I don't think hope is the same thing as faith.  I still have hope for mankind,  though I don't think I'm using faith to arrive at that.   Crazy as it sounds....I still have hope.
                                                         T4618
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-30-2021, 06:49 PM)Alan V Wrote: If I once had faith in anything, it was that the truth would win out over time.  Like you, I lost that faith.  Ignorance seems to ebb and flow.

I don't easily understand poetry, no matter the translation.  I apparently don't have the mindset for it, just like I have no talent for languages.

I do think that languages as well as poetry and a grasp of metaphors and the like, is a bit like maths or physics - some brains have a knack for them and others - not so much.

As for us... I think ignorance isn't even our biggest problem. I think we're doomed by our own nature.

(07-30-2021, 06:50 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Well, faith is often defined as belief without evidence and in the case of religions this is what they're relying on to keep believing in a god or gods.  One can have hope but I don't think hope is the same thing as faith.  I still have hope for mankind,  though I don't think I'm using faith to arrive at that.   Crazy as it sounds....I still have hope.

Faith, Hope and Love, and their mother Wisdom, as one corinthian says Big Grin

Not sure I have of any of those... Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Though all kidding aside - I do not believe we can overcome our instincts, a lot of which are proving to be destructive. Certainly not in time to at least somewhat reverse the immense harm we've done to this planet and all life on it. And possibly not ever, even if we did have enough time (which I don't think we do).

But of course, species come and species go, we're just another one slouching towards Bethlehem. And by this I mean hurtling towards self-inflicting extinction.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Ultimately, 'faith' is defined as belief without evidence.

I have faith that electrons flow in an electric current, and I have recorded evidence of electrode potential.

The theist has faith that gods speak to people, but they have no voice recordings to provide any evidence.

[Yes, I know that's a bit silly, but.....]
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
I think that must have been a pretty good translation of the poem, because it had the feel of it being written in English.

I don't think the faith the poet speaks of has much to do with religious faith. He's speaking more about hope or optimism or perhaps whether one's existence gives them enough dopamine to feel subjectively like it's "worth it". Religious faith in my view has little to do with those things, although it is often conflated with them and probably is deployed alongside them.

Religious faith is simply a belief in asserted truth involving the unverifiable without a requirement of evidence. There is some basis, however questionable, to assume, hope or wish that the life you clearly already have will get better rather than worse. There is no basis at all to assume hope or wish that an invisible sky wizard has you in his back pocket and is influencing your lived experience for your personal benefit. That is wrongly ascribing agency to simple dumb luck. It is also arrogant.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-30-2021, 03:09 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Not a bad idea at all, Alan.  Some words should be retired.

I like to reclaim those words, myself. For example, "righteous." Perfectly good word... utterly ruined by the Christians.

But the hippies reclaimed it, and restored much of its original meaning. Surfers made good use of the word too.

I'm not at all in favor of letting Christians have cool words. I like those words, dammit! If they want to have words of their own, they can keep "transubstantiation" and lame-ass words like that. I have no use for them.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-31-2021, 07:30 PM)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(07-30-2021, 03:09 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Not a bad idea at all, Alan.  Some words should be retired.

I like to reclaim those words, myself. For example, "righteous." Perfectly good word... utterly ruined by the Christians.

But the hippies reclaimed it, and restored much of its original meaning. Surfers made good use of the word too.

I'm not at all in favor of letting Christians have cool words. I like those words, dammit! If they want to have words of their own, they can keep "transubstantiation" and lame-ass words like that. I have no use for them.

Cowabunga, dude!   Sun

English offers more than enough words without my having to delve into ambiguities, especially since I'm motivated to be accurate.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(07-31-2021, 07:30 PM)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(07-30-2021, 03:09 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Not a bad idea at all, Alan.  Some words should be retired.

I like to reclaim those words, myself. For example, "righteous." Perfectly good word... utterly ruined by the Christians.

But the hippies reclaimed it, and restored much of its original meaning. Surfers made good use of the word too.

I'm not at all in favor of letting Christians have cool words. I like those words, dammit! If they want to have words of their own, they can keep "transubstantiation" and lame-ass words like that. I have no use for them.

Speaking of the word "righteous".......

I'm the youngest of 8 and I remember when I was around  4 or 5 years old my oldest brothers had a Righteous Brothers album.  

[Image: 48623573116_b9d6d2c79e_k.jpeg]
                                                         T4618
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
[Image: EVKPmPwU0AAIZMd?format=jpg&name=small]
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(08-01-2021, 03:17 PM)SYZ Wrote: [Image: EVKPmPwU0AAIZMd?format=jpg&name=small]

I find it highly amusing that Magical Jesus, the son of a god who made everything in the universe, has to roll a rock out of the way to get out of an enclosed space.  Couldn't he just walk through the wall?   It would have been much more amazing, much more god-like.
                                                         T4618
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(08-01-2021, 04:17 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-01-2021, 03:17 PM)SYZ Wrote: [Image: EVKPmPwU0AAIZMd?format=jpg&name=small]

I find it highly amusing that Magical Jesus, the son of a god who made everything in the universe, has to roll a rock out of the way to get out of an enclosed space.  Couldn't he just walk through the wall?   It would have been much more amazing, much more god-like.

Aye, same problem with all incorporeal entities afaics, ghost's fr-instance: walking through walls n shit. Why don't they fall through the floor? But anyway regarding the Jebus story wouldn't it make a wee bit more sense to have him rematerialise in Palate's bedroom at four in the morning?

That's fucking it! I warned you! And I fucking warned you!

But no you wouldn't have it. You are now sooo fucked!

An enquiring mind needs to know.
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