Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus

[Alan V]

The thing is, faith (in an ordinary sense, not in a "belief in the otherworldly" sense) is kinda useful in our daily lives and interpersonal relationships. That's part of the problem. It's so useful, people think they can figure out cosmic truths with it. But they can't. Its usefulness only goes so far.

I agree that "faith is a totally useless method of finding out whether something is true or not." Evidence, analysis, skepticism... these are way better at sussing out the truth than faith. And faith has no business anywhere near investigations into the truth. But it still has its uses.

Since the word "faith" has been co-opted by the religious, I don't bother to use it in any way which actually makes sense. That avoids confusions.

[Minimalist]

Not a bad idea at all, Alan.  Some words should be retired.

[Vera]

Hey! My name means faith and I ain't retiring it

Am reminded of this poem, called Faith, by a poet who, sadly, was executed as a communist during WWII...


Faith

"Here am I - breathing,
working,
living
and writing my poetry
(my best to it giving).
Life and I glower
across at each other
and with it I struggle
with all my power. (my favourite bit   )

Life and I quarrel,
but don't draw the moral
that I despise it.
No, just the opposite!
Though I should perish,
life with its brutal
claws of steel
still would I cherish,
still would I cherish!

Suppose round my neck they tie fast
the rope
and they ask:
"Would you like one more hour to live?"
I would instantly cry:
"Untie!
Untie!
Come, quickly untie
the rope, you devils!"
For Life there is nothing
I would not dare.
I would fly
a prototype plane in the sky,
climb into a roaring
rocket, exploring
alone
in space
distant
planets.

Still would I feel
a joyous thrill
gazing
up
at the blue sky.
Still would I feel
a joyous thrill
to be alive,
to go on living.

But look, suppose
you took - how much? -
a single grain
from this my faith,
then would I rage,
I would rage from pain
like a panther
pierced to the heart.

For what of me
would there remain?
After the theft
I'd be distraught.
To put it plainly
and more directly -
after the theft
I would be nought.

Maybe you wish
you could erase
my faith
my faith
in happy days,
my faith
that tomorrow
life will be finer,
life will be wiser?

Pray, how will you smash it?
With bullets?
No! That is useless!
Stop! It's not worth it!

My faith has strong armour
in my sturdy breast
and bullets able to shatter
my faith
do not exist,
do not exist!"

Not a perfect translation and I'm not sure I have much faith in a better, wiser life, but...

[Alan V]

Am reminded of this poem, called Faith, by a poet who, sadly, was executed as a communist during WWII...

Faith

"Here am I - breathing,
working,
living
and writing my poetry
(my best to it giving).
Life and I glower
across at each other
and with it I struggle
with all my power. (my favourite bit   )

I don't know why one needs faith to struggle with life.  Consciousness evolved to serve the interests of the self, so it only makes sense.  From that point of view, faith is something certain people need as an additional justification for their behaviors because they assume their soul has a separate life from their body.

[Vera]

I don't know why one needs faith to struggle with life. 

Um, I don't think that part has much to do with his faith. He's just talking about life and how despite their "struggle", he still loves it with everything he's got (and yet, was killed when he was 32).

And then he starts talking his faith - "that life will be better and wiser". That's the whole point, people have faith in a whole lot of things, not just religious concepts.

Hell, I had "faith" that things and humanity were getting and will continue to get better.

I don't anymore, but that's a different story.


Not sure if Vaptsarov even meant to oppose religious faith to his own (faith isn't necessarily or primarily a religious word in Bulgaria), like one of our most celebrated poets (and a revolutionary - against the Ottoman empire), who was an atheist, way back then, did with his poem called Prayer. And he does "pray" to "God" but, his "prayer" and "God" are not those that first come to mind:

"Oh, you, my God, my fair God,
who doesn't live in Heaven up,
but you, who are in me, my God,
into my soul and in my heart.

Not you to whom the monks and priests
make their bows and bend, not you
whom all the orthodoxal beasts
light up the sacred tapers to.

Not you who made of mud and dirt
the man, the woman, but forsakes
the human being on the Earth
to be its everlasting slave.

Not you who's consecrated kings,
the patriarchs and every Pope,
not you who's left in misery
my poor brothers in the woe.

Not you, who teaches slaves to pray,
to cry for mercy and to bear
the suffering until the grave
with their hopes in vain to cherish.

Not you, oh, God of liars, who
has blessed dishonest tyrants all,
not you, an idol of the fools,
an idol of the human foes.

But you, oh, God of sense and mind,
oh, God, defender of the slaves,
whose day the people and mankind
are going soon to celebrate.

Inspire everyone, oh, God
with love alive for freedom, then
each one will struggle as he could
with all the enemies of men.

And at the end support my arms,
when rises the revolt of slaves,
in rows of their fight at last
to find also my only grave.

Don't let abroad this vigour heart
lost in youth cool down at present.
Don't let my voice unlikely pass
silently as through the desert."

Again the translation leaves a lot to be desired but...

[Alan V]

Hell, I had "faith" that things and humanity were getting and will continue to get better.

I don't anymore, but that's a different story.

...

Again the translation leaves a lot to be desired but...

If I once had faith in anything, it was that the truth would win out over time.  Like you, I lost that faith. Ignorance seems to ebb and flow.

I don't easily understand poetry, no matter the translation.  I apparently don't have the mindset for it, just like I have no talent for languages.

[Dancefortwo]

I don't know why one needs faith to struggle with life. 

Um, I don't think that part has much to do with his faith. He's just talking about life and how despite their "struggle", he still loves it with everything he's got (and yet, was killed when he was 32).

And then he starts talking his faith - "that life will be better and wiser". That's the whole point, people have faith in a whole lot of things, not just religious concepts.

Hell, I had "faith" that things and humanity were getting and will continue to get better.

I don't anymore, but that's a different story.


Not sure if Vaptsarov even meant to oppose religious faith to his own (faith isn't necessarily or primarily a religious word in Bulgaria), like one of our most celebrated poets (and a revolutionary - against the Ottoman empire), who was an atheist, way back then, did with his poem called Prayer. And he does "pray" to "God" but, his "prayer" and "God" are not those that first come to mind:

"Oh, you, my God, my fair God,
who doesn't live in Heaven up,
but you, who are in me, my God,
into my soul and in my heart.

Not you to whom the monks and priests
make their bows and bend, not you
whom all the orthodoxal beasts
light up the sacred tapers to.

Not you who made of mud and dirt
the man, the woman, but forsakes
the human being on the Earth
to be its everlasting slave.

Not you who's consecrated kings,
the patriarchs and every Pope,
not you who's left in misery
my poor brothers in the woe.

Not you, who teaches slaves to pray,
to cry for mercy and to bear
the suffering until the grave
with their hopes in vain to cherish.

Not you, oh, God of liars, who
has blessed dishonest tyrants all,
not you, an idol of the fools,
an idol of the human foes.

But you, oh, God of sense and mind,
oh, God, defender of the slaves,
whose day the people and mankind
are going soon to celebrate.

Inspire everyone, oh, God
with love alive for freedom, then
each one will struggle as he could
with all the enemies of men.

And at the end support my arms,
when rises the revolt of slaves,
in rows of their fight at last
to find also my only grave.

Don't let abroad this vigour heart
lost in youth cool down at present.
Don't let my voice unlikely pass
silently as through the desert."

Again the translation leaves a lot to be desired but...

Well, faith is often defined as belief without evidence and in the case of religions this is what they're relying on to keep believing in a god or gods.  One can have hope but I don't think hope is the same thing as faith.  I still have hope for mankind,  though I don't think I'm using faith to arrive at that.   Crazy as it sounds....I still have hope.

[Vera]

If I once had faith in anything, it was that the truth would win out over time.  Like you, I lost that faith.  Ignorance seems to ebb and flow.

I don't easily understand poetry, no matter the translation.  I apparently don't have the mindset for it, just like I have no talent for languages.

I do think that languages as well as poetry and a grasp of metaphors and the like, is a bit like maths or physics - some brains have a knack for them and others - not so much.

As for us... I think ignorance isn't even our biggest problem. I think we're doomed by our own nature.

Well, faith is often defined as belief without evidence and in the case of religions this is what they're relying on to keep believing in a god or gods.  One can have hope but I don't think hope is the same thing as faith.  I still have hope for mankind,  though I don't think I'm using faith to arrive at that.   Crazy as it sounds....I still have hope.

Faith, Hope and Love, and their mother Wisdom, as one corinthian says

Not sure I have of any of those...

Though all kidding aside - I do not believe we can overcome our instincts, a lot of which are proving to be destructive. Certainly not in time to at least somewhat reverse the immense harm we've done to this planet and all life on it. And possibly not ever, even if we did have enough time (which I don't think we do).

But of course, species come and species go, we're just another one slouching towards Bethlehem. And by this I mean hurtling towards self-inflicting extinction.

[SYZ]

Ultimately, 'faith' is defined as belief without evidence.

I have faith that electrons flow in an electric current, and I have recorded evidence of electrode potential.

The theist has faith that gods speak to people, but they have no voice recordings to provide any evidence.

[Yes, I know that's a bit silly, but.....]

[mordant]

I think that must have been a pretty good translation of the poem, because it had the feel of it being written in English.

I don't think the faith the poet speaks of has much to do with religious faith. He's speaking more about hope or optimism or perhaps whether one's existence gives them enough dopamine to feel subjectively like it's "worth it". Religious faith in my view has little to do with those things, although it is often conflated with them and probably is deployed alongside them.

Religious faith is simply a belief in asserted truth involving the unverifiable without a requirement of evidence. There is some basis, however questionable, to assume, hope or wish that the life you clearly already have will get better rather than worse. There is no basis at all to assume hope or wish that an invisible sky wizard has you in his back pocket and is influencing your lived experience for your personal benefit. That is wrongly ascribing agency to simple dumb luck. It is also arrogant.

[vulcanlogician]

Not a bad idea at all, Alan.  Some words should be retired.

I like to reclaim those words, myself. For example, "righteous." Perfectly good word... utterly ruined by the Christians.

But the hippies reclaimed it, and restored much of its original meaning. Surfers made good use of the word too.

I'm not at all in favor of letting Christians have cool words. I like those words, dammit! If they want to have words of their own, they can keep "transubstantiation" and lame-ass words like that. I have no use for them.

[Alan V]

Not a bad idea at all, Alan.  Some words should be retired.

I like to reclaim those words, myself. For example, "righteous." Perfectly good word... utterly ruined by the Christians.

But the hippies reclaimed it, and restored much of its original meaning. Surfers made good use of the word too.

I'm not at all in favor of letting Christians have cool words. I like those words, dammit! If they want to have words of their own, they can keep "transubstantiation" and lame-ass words like that. I have no use for them.

Cowabunga, dude!  

English offers more than enough words without my having to delve into ambiguities, especially since I'm motivated to be accurate.

[Dancefortwo]

Not a bad idea at all, Alan.  Some words should be retired.

I like to reclaim those words, myself. For example, "righteous." Perfectly good word... utterly ruined by the Christians.

But the hippies reclaimed it, and restored much of its original meaning. Surfers made good use of the word too.

I'm not at all in favor of letting Christians have cool words. I like those words, dammit! If they want to have words of their own, they can keep "transubstantiation" and lame-ass words like that. I have no use for them.

Speaking of the word "righteous".......

I'm the youngest of 8 and I remember when I was around  4 or 5 years old my oldest brothers had a Righteous Brothers album.  

[SYZ]

[Dancefortwo]

I find it highly amusing that Magical Jesus, the son of a god who made everything in the universe, has to roll a rock out of the way to get out of an enclosed space.  Couldn't he just walk through the wall?   It would have been much more amazing, much more god-like.

[Inkubus]

I find it highly amusing that Magical Jesus, the son of a god who made everything in the universe, has to roll a rock out of the way to get out of an enclosed space.  Couldn't he just walk through the wall?   It would have been much more amazing, much more god-like.

Aye, same problem with all incorporeal entities afaics, ghost's fr-instance: walking through walls n shit. Why don't they fall through the floor? But anyway regarding the Jebus story wouldn't it make a wee bit more sense to have him rematerialise in Palate's bedroom at four in the morning?

That's fucking it! I warned you! And I fucking warned you!

But no you wouldn't have it. You are now sooo fucked!

An enquiring mind needs to know.

[Minimalist]

The conclusion of a 2013 paper posted at Academia.edu on the status of so-called "Nazareth."

The best explanation seems to be a very small settlement, populated by Jews who had relocated from Judea as part of an intentional program to strengthen the Jewish character of the Galilee. Nazareth probably did not have a synagogue in the first two decades of the first century.  In the time of Jesus the population may have been fewer than 300 persons, and we might imagine that the majority of them would have been children

https://www.academia.edu/3988852/The_Que...view-paper


The author speculates that such "relocation" might have taken place at the beginning of the Heroidan Era around c 38 BCE.  What he fails to consider is the historical/political situation at that time.  In 40 BCE the Parthians with an assist from a Pompeian general, Quintus Labienus, invaded the Levant and Asia Minor and actually installed a pro-Pompeian/Parthian ruler, Antigonus II, on the throne of Jerusalem.  To make a long story short, two years later, Mark Antony evicted the Parthians from Judaea (and Syria) and set up Herod I as king.  Meanwhile his lieutenant, Ventidius Bassus defeated and killed Labienus and that was the end of the great Parthian invasion.  Thus, rather than any "intentional program to strengthen the Jewish character of Galilee" it is far more probable that a handful of refugees, fleeing one side or the other, decided that what later became Nazareth was a good place to park their asses.

The author did a god job reviewing the existing archaeological evidence and the lack of early textual references to any place called "Nazareth." He also notes that there are 29 references to Nazareth in the NT ( none in the OT) and all of them are in either the gospels or  Acts all of which are generally considered later than the epistles of this "paul" guy.  He also notes that the Apostolic Fathers never mention it and there are only a handful of references from late 2d century writings.  He specifically notes that the first non-xtian reference to it is a partial inscription from the 4th century.  Josephus campaigned extensively in the area during his futile attempt to stop Vespasian (67 CE) without ever seeing fit to mention it.

If "Nazareth" did exist in the early first century it was either an insignificant shithole, called something else, a farmstead for a single extended family, or a vacant lot.

[Bucky Ball]

Hey! My name means faith and I ain't retiring it

Am reminded of this poem, called Faith, by a poet who, sadly, was executed as a communist during WWII...


Faith

"Here am I - breathing,
working,
living
and writing my poetry
(my best to it giving).
Life and I glower
across at each other
and with it I struggle
with all my power. (my favourite bit   )

Life and I quarrel,
but don't draw the moral
that I despise it.
No, just the opposite!
Though I should perish,
life with its brutal
claws of steel
still would I cherish,
still would I cherish!

Suppose round my neck they tie fast
the rope
and they ask:
"Would you like one more hour to live?"
I would instantly cry:
"Untie!
Untie!
Come, quickly untie
the rope, you devils!"
For Life there is nothing
I would not dare.
I would fly
a prototype plane in the sky,
climb into a roaring
rocket, exploring
alone
in space
distant
planets.

Still would I feel
a joyous thrill
gazing
up
at the blue sky.
Still would I feel
a joyous thrill
to be alive,
to go on living.

But look, suppose
you took - how much? -
a single grain
from this my faith,
then would I rage,
I would rage from pain
like a panther
pierced to the heart.

For what of me
would there remain?
After the theft
I'd be distraught.
To put it plainly
and more directly -
after the theft
I would be nought.

Maybe you wish
you could erase
my faith
my faith
in happy days,
my faith
that tomorrow
life will be finer,
life will be wiser?

Pray, how will you smash it?
With bullets?
No! That is useless!
Stop! It's not worth it!

My faith has strong armour
in my sturdy breast
and bullets able to shatter
my faith
do not exist,
do not exist!"

Not a perfect translation and I'm not sure I have much faith in a better, wiser life, but...

Oh silly me.
And here I thought your name meant "the green one" or "truth", or "the true green one".

[Vera]

Oh silly me.
And here I thought your name meant "the green one" or "truth", or "the true green one".

Hehe, I've had more than one conversation, mostly with Brazilians, but not just, who strongly insisted it meant "true". Like hell it does (OK, that's not how the conversations went, people were interested but they really were convinced it meant "true". It just pure coincidence that a similar sounding Latin root means "truth". But the name really *is* of Slavic origin.)

I might start using "the true green one" as nicknames in places I don't wanna use my real name

[Antonio]

Jesus = Santa Claus

[Free]

The conclusion of a 2013 paper posted at Academia.edu on the status of so-called "Nazareth."

The best explanation seems to be a very small settlement, populated by Jews who had relocated from Judea as part of an intentional program to strengthen the Jewish character of the Galilee. Nazareth probably did not have a synagogue in the first two decades of the first century.  In the time of Jesus the population may have been fewer than 300 persons, and we might imagine that the majority of them would have been children

https://www.academia.edu/3988852/The_Que...view-paper


The author speculates that such "relocation" might have taken place at the beginning of the Heroidan Era around c 38 BCE.  What he fails to consider is the historical/political situation at that time.  In 40 BCE the Parthians with an assist from a Pompeian general, Quintus Labienus, invaded the Levant and Asia Minor and actually installed a pro-Pompeian/Parthian ruler, Antigonus II, on the throne of Jerusalem.  To make a long story short, two years later, Mark Antony evicted the Parthians from Judaea (and Syria) and set up Herod I as king.  Meanwhile his lieutenant, Ventidius Bassus defeated and killed Labienus and that was the end of the great Parthian invasion.  Thus, rather than any "intentional program to strengthen the Jewish character of Galilee" it is far more probable that a handful of refugees, fleeing one side or the other, decided that what later became Nazareth was a good place to park their asses.

The author did a god job reviewing the existing archaeological evidence and the lack of early textual references to any place called "Nazareth." He also notes that there are 29 references to Nazareth in the NT ( none in the OT) and all of them are in either the gospels or  Acts all of which are generally considered later than the epistles of this "paul" guy.  He also notes that the Apostolic Fathers never mention it and there are only a handful of references from late 2d century writings.  He specifically notes that the first non-xtian reference to it is a partial inscription from the 4th century.  Josephus campaigned extensively in the area during his futile attempt to stop Vespasian (67 CE) without ever seeing fit to mention it.

If "Nazareth" did exist in the early first century it was either an insignificant shithole, called something else, a farmstead for a single extended family, or a vacant lot.

I always suspected that it was a small community of less than 300 people. I also suspect the people were Nazarenes, hence the name Nazareth. And finally, I also suspect they were a priestly community, some weird off-shoot of the weirder Essene. 

The Gospel records depict Jesus saying things uncommon with the two other major sects, the Sadducee and the Pharisee. They also depict him harshly condemning those two sects, an indication he didn't belong to either of those and if he didn't then that means he belonged to something else. Josephus also describes the Essene practicing rituals that the Gospel records also show from Jesus. 

It's just a wild guess that if this Jesus from the gospels was based upon a historical person, and he was as I described, his religious philosophy would not be well received by Judaic powers that be at that time. I suspect he was as much hated as he was loved.

I still think it would be cool if we found his bones and nailed them back up on a cross for a good laugh.

[Minimalist]

Well, the gospels are nothing more than propaganda and the Pharisees would have been more interesting to this jesus clown - had he existed.  Compared to the Sadducees, the Pharisees seem like they would have been natural allies.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pha...nd-essenes

The Pharisees also maintained that an after-life existed, and that God punished the wicked and rewarded the righteous in the world to come. They also believed in a messiah who would herald an era of world peace.

I mean, how more jesusist can you get?


Of course, by the time this gospel shit was cobbled together it was the mid second century and the Sadducees had been gone since 70.  The Pharisees were still around and thus the Pharisees became the designated bad boys.

[Dancefortwo]

The conclusion of a 2013 paper posted at Academia.edu on the status of so-called "Nazareth."

The best explanation seems to be a very small settlement, populated by Jews who had relocated from Judea as part of an intentional program to strengthen the Jewish character of the Galilee. Nazareth probably did not have a synagogue in the first two decades of the first century.  In the time of Jesus the population may have been fewer than 300 persons, and we might imagine that the majority of them would have been children

https://www.academia.edu/3988852/The_Que...view-paper


The author speculates that such "relocation" might have taken place at the beginning of the Heroidan Era around c 38 BCE.  What he fails to consider is the historical/political situation at that time.  In 40 BCE the Parthians with an assist from a Pompeian general, Quintus Labienus, invaded the Levant and Asia Minor and actually installed a pro-Pompeian/Parthian ruler, Antigonus II, on the throne of Jerusalem.  To make a long story short, two years later, Mark Antony evicted the Parthians from Judaea (and Syria) and set up Herod I as king.  Meanwhile his lieutenant, Ventidius Bassus defeated and killed Labienus and that was the end of the great Parthian invasion.  Thus, rather than any "intentional program to strengthen the Jewish character of Galilee" it is far more probable that a handful of refugees, fleeing one side or the other, decided that what later became Nazareth was a good place to park their asses.

The author did a god job reviewing the existing archaeological evidence and the lack of early textual references to any place called "Nazareth." He also notes that there are 29 references to Nazareth in the NT ( none in the OT) and all of them are in either the gospels or  Acts all of which are generally considered later than the epistles of this "paul" guy.  He also notes that the Apostolic Fathers never mention it and there are only a handful of references from late 2d century writings.  He specifically notes that the first non-xtian reference to it is a partial inscription from the 4th century.  Josephus campaigned extensively in the area during his futile attempt to stop Vespasian (67 CE) without ever seeing fit to mention it.

If "Nazareth" did exist in the early first century it was either an insignificant shithole, called something else, a farmstead for a single extended family, or a vacant lot.

I always suspected that it was a small community of less than 300 people. I also suspect the people were Nazarenes, hence the name Nazareth. And finally, I also suspect they were a priestly community, some weird off-shoot of the weirder Essene. 

The Gospel records depict Jesus saying things uncommon with the two other major sects, the Sadducee and the Pharisee. They also depict him harshly condemning those two sects, an indication he didn't belong to either of those and if he didn't then that means he belonged to something else. Josephus also describes the Essene practicing rituals that the Gospel records also show from Jesus. 

It's just a wild guess that if this Jesus from the gospels was based upon a historical person, and he was as I described, his religious philosophy would not be well received by Judaic powers that be at that time. I suspect he was as much hated as he was loved.

I still think it would be cool if we found his bones and nailed them back up on a cross for a good laugh.

Somewhere, and I can't for the life of me remember where I read it, but somewhere archaeologists unearthed some bits and pieces of Nazareth going back the Jesus' time.  What this little place appeared to be is a backwater one horse town with a very high rate of illiteracy.   There were no structures that would have been a place of worship where reading would be needed or taught.    The people who lived in this area were probably all illiterate.  This means that Jesus was most likely unable to read or write.  

What I find so funny about Jesus "of Nazareth" is that the gospel writers had to change his birth place to Bethlehem so he could fulfill the prophecy from the old testament.

[Minimalist]

Back in 1997 excavations were done supervised by the IAA but run by a pretty decent xhristard professor named Stephen Pfann.  It's late here and I don't have time to go looking for it but I'll dig it out tomorrow.  Pfann found a farm.  And the whack jobs went nuts declaring everything about the farm something that fucking jesus had done.

"Look! Here's where the barn was where jesus got his first roll in the hay!

"Look!  Over here was the corral where jesus fucked his first goat!"

"Look!  Over here was the olive tree under which Mary Magdalene gave jesus his first blow job."

Okay...I'm exaggerating a bit, D42, but its pretty amusing how the xhristards take the most mundane finds and weave their godboy into the story.  Hang on til tomorrow.

[SYZ]

...If "Nazareth" did exist in the early first century it was either an insignificant shithole, called something else, a farmstead for a single extended family, or a vacant lot.

Or a big hair rock group...



Dan McCafferty's angsty vocals make this one of the best power ballads of the 1970s.