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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus

Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(01-31-2021, 08:15 PM)Free Wrote: If ever it could be proven that all he was was some man and not some god it would destroy Christianity as we know it today. You will never convince Christians that Jesus was a myth because there's no evidence to work with.

But if you can get enough evidence together and correlate it to show a mere human being, heads are going to roll because you actually do have evidence.

That's pretty much a fool's errand. 
There is no way you could "prove to a believer that a Jesus existed, but he wasn't a god". 
You have never proposed a way to do this.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 05:32 AM)Chas Wrote:
(01-30-2021, 03:38 PM)Free Wrote: The interesting thing about those letters is that they don't talk about miracles, and they describe Jesus as a human being who was crucified numerous times.

How many times was Jesus crucified?  Consider

Four times, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

ROFL2

Nice catch.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 04:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(01-31-2021, 08:15 PM)Free Wrote: If ever it could be proven that all he was was some man and not some god it would destroy Christianity as we know it today. You will never convince Christians that Jesus was a myth because there's no evidence to work with.

But if you can get enough evidence together and correlate it to show a mere human being, heads are going to roll because you actually do have evidence.

That's pretty much a fool's errand. 
There is no way you could "prove to a believer that a Jesus existed, but he wasn't a god". 
You have never proposed a way to do this.

I have been proposing the way to do this for years, repeatedly.

With "HISTORY."
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 05:17 PM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(01-31-2021, 08:15 PM)Free Wrote: If ever it could be proven that all he was was some man and not some god it would destroy Christianity as we know it today. You will never convince Christians that Jesus was a myth because there's no evidence to work with.

But if you can get enough evidence together and correlate it to show a mere human being, heads are going to roll because you actually do have evidence.

That's pretty much a fool's errand. 
There is no way you could "prove to a believer that a Jesus existed, but he wasn't a god". 
You have never proposed a way to do this.

I have been proposing the way to do this for years, repeatedly.

With "HISTORY."

So you actually have no way to do it.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 04:51 PM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 03:49 PM)Free Wrote: What you provided was something that requires an interpretation of it actually being evidence. Very unconvincing.

Unfortunately for you, it's very convincing ... especially as Josephus went to such great lenths in the "Jewish War" to establish the point. You really should read the book. 
Actually what Josephus talks about in great and repeated detail are the multiple events in which he was confirming that Vespasian was the person prophesied in the Star of Balaam prophesy.
REPEATEDLY, Josephus describes the "miraculous" events he witnessed in Israel, which prove to him that Vespasian was the messiah prophesied in teh Star of Balam prophesy.
The REPEATED, lenthy descriptions require no "interpretation". They're all there ... for anyone to read. You're dead wrong Free. Just admit it.

What you are failing to admit here is that Josephus, not once, ever related that he believed that the Balaam prophesy had anything to do with a Messiah. If you actually understood why, you just might get it. As mentioned, Vespasian does not qualify as a Messiah for the primary reason that he was not a descendant from the Davidic line.

In short, Josephus never believed the prophesy was concerning a coming Messiah. He believed it was concerning the Romans, and their destruction of Jerusalem. And he says exactly that.

And THAT, right there, demonstartes you understand nothing about this, about the culture, and about the times. 
Some Jews thought the Star of Balaam prophesy could and did refer to a NON-JEW. That is where you fail here, (or at least found it useful to flatter Vespasian).  The REASON Josephus wrote so much about the "signs", was that he was one of these. He wrote about the "star" (in Balaam) having fixed itself over Jerusalem.
You don't really even know what the Balaam prophesy says, do you ?
Again, you prove you have never even reat the "Jewish War".
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 05:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 05:17 PM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: That's pretty much a fool's errand. 
There is no way you could "prove to a believer that a Jesus existed, but he wasn't a god". 
You have never proposed a way to do this.

I have been proposing the way to do this for years, repeatedly.

With "HISTORY."

So you actually have no way to do it.

It's just a matter of herding the cats into a consensus in which they can agree on more than just the crucifixion by Pilate and the baptism by John.

In the end, it will be the historians who will finally reach an agreement on not only the facts available, but also the best approximation of his history according to what else is available to glean that history from.

We are still decades away from this.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 05:44 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:51 PM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Unfortunately for you, it's very convincing ... especially as Josephus went to such great lenths in the "Jewish War" to establish the point. You really should read the book. 
Actually what Josephus talks about in great and repeated detail are the multiple events in which he was confirming that Vespasian was the person prophesied in the Star of Balaam prophesy.
REPEATEDLY, Josephus describes the "miraculous" events he witnessed in Israel, which prove to him that Vespasian was the messiah prophesied in teh Star of Balam prophesy.
The REPEATED, lenthy descriptions require no "interpretation". They're all there ... for anyone to read. You're dead wrong Free. Just admit it.

What you are failing to admit here is that Josephus, not once, ever related that he believed that the Balaam prophesy had anything to do with a Messiah. If you actually understood why, you just might get it. As mentioned, Vespasian does not qualify as a Messiah for the primary reason that he was not a descendant from the Davidic line.

In short, Josephus never believed the prophesy was concerning a coming Messiah. He believed it was concerning the Romans, and their destruction of Jerusalem. And he says exactly that.

And THAT, right there, demonstartes you understand nothing about this, about the culture, and about the times. 
Some Jews thought the Star of Balaam prophesy could and did refer to a NON-JEW. That is where you fail here, (or at least found it useful to flatter Vespasian).  The REASON Josephus wrote so much about the "signs", was that he was one of these. He wrote about the "star" (in Balaam) having fixed itself over Jerusalem.
You don't really even know what the Balaam prophesy says, do you ?
Again, you prove you have never even reat the "Jewish War".

According to Josephus, the Balaam prophesy was in regards to the Romans being sent by his god to destroy Jerusalem. He says exactly that. Read it and weep, champ.

"And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them,—and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans,  and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."


But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction."

Now i ask you directly this question:

According to the words of Josephus above, did he say that the Roman armies of Vespasian fulfilled the Balaam prophesy by the destruction of Jerusalem, or did he say that Vespasian was the foretold Messiah? 

Also, is Vespasian from the Davidic line?

"In Jewish eschatology, the term came to refer to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who will be "anointed" with holy anointing oil, to be king of God's kingdom, and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age. In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God. He is considered to be a great political leader that has descended from King David, hence why he is referred to as Messiah ben David, 'Messiah, son of David'. In Judaism, the messiah is considered to be a great, charismatic leader that is well oriented with the laws that are followed in Judaism.[24] He will be the one who will not "judge by what his eyes see" or "decide by what his ears hear."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah#Judaism

Black.And.White.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
But there was no Davidic line.  Probably because David was bullshit, too.

Of course that doesn't stop religitards from believing in any old thing they wish, does it?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 07:45 PM)Minimalist Wrote: But there was no Davidic line.  Probably because David was bullshit, too.

Of course that doesn't stop religitards from believing in any old thing they wish, does it?

You are correct.

But ... that's what they believed.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 05:44 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 04:51 PM)Free Wrote: What you are failing to admit here is that Josephus, not once, ever related that he believed that the Balaam prophesy had anything to do with a Messiah. If you actually understood why, you just might get it. As mentioned, Vespasian does not qualify as a Messiah for the primary reason that he was not a descendant from the Davidic line.

In short, Josephus never believed the prophesy was concerning a coming Messiah. He believed it was concerning the Romans, and their destruction of Jerusalem. And he says exactly that.

And THAT, right there, demonstartes you understand nothing about this, about the culture, and about the times. 
Some Jews thought the Star of Balaam prophesy could and did refer to a NON-JEW. That is where you fail here, (or at least found it useful to flatter Vespasian).  The REASON Josephus wrote so much about the "signs", was that he was one of these. He wrote about the "star" (in Balaam) having fixed itself over Jerusalem.
You don't really even know what the Balaam prophesy says, do you ?
Again, you prove you have never even reat the "Jewish War".

According to Josephus, the Balaam prophesy was in regards to the Romans being sent by his god to destroy Jerusalem. He says exactly that. Read it and weep, champ.

"And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them,—and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans,  and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."


But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction."

Now i ask you directly this question:

According to the words of Josephus above, did he say that the Roman armies of Vespasian fulfilled the Balaam prophesy by the destruction of Jerusalem, or did he say that Vespasian was the foretold Messiah? 

Also, is Vespasian from the Davidic line?

"In Jewish eschatology, the term came to refer to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who will be "anointed" with holy anointing oil, to be king of God's kingdom, and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age. In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God. He is considered to be a great political leader that has descended from King David, hence why he is referred to as Messiah ben David, 'Messiah, son of David'. In Judaism, the messiah is considered to be a great, charismatic leader that is well oriented with the laws that are followed in Judaism.[24] He will be the one who will not "judge by what his eyes see" or "decide by what his ears hear."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah#Judaism

Black.And.White.

Oh. Now we get "black.and.white." No more "periods" ? LOL

The entire POINT is, (you don't even know what the Balaam priophesy is), is that it is NOT the traditional understanding on the messiah. 
This is like talking to a rock. I don't need the likes of you telling me the traditional messiah concept. The fact you posted that, tells me you never even read the Balaam prophesy. Josephus spent paragraph after paragraph describing how the events in Jerusalem met the details of the Balaam Prophesy. You never read it. How would you know ? 

So then, no plan for using history to prove someone wasn't a god. LMAO.
The one you have is delusional at best.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 07:51 PM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 07:45 PM)Minimalist Wrote: But there was no Davidic line.  Probably because David was bullshit, too.

Of course that doesn't stop religitards from believing in any old thing they wish, does it?

You are correct.

But ... that's what they believed.

But that doesn't mean we should still believe it today.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 11:58 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 07:51 PM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 07:45 PM)Minimalist Wrote: But there was no Davidic line.  Probably because David was bullshit, too.

Of course that doesn't stop religitards from believing in any old thing they wish, does it?

You are correct.

But ... that's what they believed.

But that doesn't mean we should still believe it today.

Fuck no.

It's all bullshit. Somebody probably made that crap up as a slave in Babylon.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 10:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 05:44 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: And THAT, right there, demonstartes you understand nothing about this, about the culture, and about the times. 
Some Jews thought the Star of Balaam prophesy could and did refer to a NON-JEW. That is where you fail here, (or at least found it useful to flatter Vespasian).  The REASON Josephus wrote so much about the "signs", was that he was one of these. He wrote about the "star" (in Balaam) having fixed itself over Jerusalem.
You don't really even know what the Balaam prophesy says, do you ?
Again, you prove you have never even reat the "Jewish War".

According to Josephus, the Balaam prophesy was in regards to the Romans being sent by his god to destroy Jerusalem. He says exactly that. Read it and weep, champ.

"And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them,—and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans,  and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."


But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction."

Now i ask you directly this question:

According to the words of Josephus above, did he say that the Roman armies of Vespasian fulfilled the Balaam prophesy by the destruction of Jerusalem, or did he say that Vespasian was the foretold Messiah? 

Also, is Vespasian from the Davidic line?

"In Jewish eschatology, the term came to refer to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who will be "anointed" with holy anointing oil, to be king of God's kingdom, and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age. In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God. He is considered to be a great political leader that has descended from King David, hence why he is referred to as Messiah ben David, 'Messiah, son of David'. In Judaism, the messiah is considered to be a great, charismatic leader that is well oriented with the laws that are followed in Judaism.[24] He will be the one who will not "judge by what his eyes see" or "decide by what his ears hear."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah#Judaism

Black.And.White.

Oh. Now we get "black.and.white." No more "periods" ? LOL

The entire POINT is, (you don't even know what the Balaam priophesy is), is that it is NOT the traditional understanding on the messiah. 
This is like talking to a rock. I don't need the likes of you telling me the traditional messiah concept. The fact you posted that, tells me you never even read the Balaam prophesy. Josephus spent paragraph after paragraph describing how the events in Jerusalem met the details of the Balaam Prophesy. You never read it. How would you know ? 

So then, no plan for using history to prove someone wasn't a god. LMAO.
The one you have is delusional at best.

Somebody needs to tell you the "ancient" beliefs regarding the Messiah, and guess who? Me. Why? Because you don't know, and you're using presentism to make conclusions. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

You're drawing conclusions from the pseudo scholarship of whatever the fuck it is you're reading online. You won't find one single ancient document where anyone suggested that Josephus referred to Vespasian as some kind of Messiah, nor will you find that opinion from anyone in ancient times. 

No. 

Josephus disputed the interpretation of his fellow Jews, and literally tells us that his interpretation of the prophecy was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, with Vespasian as the leader. He said it was an act of his god as retribution for the failings of his Jewish countrymen. His fellow Jews took the prophecy to be all about them, thinking it meant that one of their own would lead them to victory as a Messiah over the Romans. Josephus says they were wrong. It was instead all about Vespasian and the Roman legions destroying Jerusalem as instruments of the Jewish god.

And don't talk to me about that prophesy. Everybody in this field has read it, and it's every bit ambiguous as Josephus says it is.

And of course ... 100% bullshit.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Did you ever read George Athas' work on the Tel Dan Stele?  Fascinating in its detail.  Athas proposes that bytdvd is a place name because in Aramaic, if the phrase meant House of David there would be a dot in the middle as Aramaic used word dividers.  

You may find this interesting.

https://vridar.org/2011/07/11/the-tel-da...-of-david/
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-03-2021, 01:37 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Did you ever read George Athas' work on the Tel Dan Stele?  Fascinating in its detail.  Athas proposes that bytdvd is a place name because in Aramaic, if the phrase meant House of David there would be a dot in the middle as Aramaic used word dividers.  

You may find this interesting.

https://vridar.org/2011/07/11/the-tel-da...-of-david/

So ... City of David instead of House of David? A place instead of a lineage?

That actually makes sense.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
In effect, yes.

[Image: 1024px-Tel_dan_inscription.png]


The only word that the religitards care about is on the larger fragment A on line #9

Quote:Romanized:
  1. [ ‘]mr.’[ ]wgzr[ ]
  2. [ ---].‘by.ysq[.’lwh.bh]tlḥmh.b‘[ ]
  3. wyškb.‘by.yhk.‘l[.‘bhw]h.wy’l.mlky[ yš]
  4. r‘l.qdm.b‘rq.‘by[.w]hmlk.hdd[.][yty]
  5. ‘nh.wyhk.hdd.qdmy[.w]‘pq.mn.šb’[t---]
  6. y.mlky.w‘qtl.ml[kn.šb]’n.‘sry.‘[lpy.r]
  7. kb.w‘lpy.prš.[qtlt.‘yt.yhw]rm.br.[‘ḥ‘b.]
  8. mlk.yšr‘l.wqtl[t.‘yt.‘ḥz]yhw.br[.yhwrm.ml]
  9. k.bytdwd.w‘šm.[‘yt.qryt.hm.ḥrbt.w‘hpk.‘]
  10. yt.‘rq.hm.l[yšmn ]
  11. ‘ḥrn.wlh[... wyhw‘.m]
  12. lk.’l.yš[r‘l... w‘šm.]
  13. mṣr.’[l.
  14. ]
The 1995 translation by Biran reads;[15]
  1. [ ]...[...] and cut [...]
  2. [...] my father went up [against him when h]e fought at [...]
  3. and my father lay down, he went to his [ancestors (viz. became sick and died)]. And the king of I[s-]
  4. rael entered previously in my father's land, [and] Hadad made me king,
  5. And Hadad went in front of me, [and] I departed from the seven [...-]
  6. s of my kingdom, and I slew [seve]nty kin[gs], who harnessed th[ousands of cha-]
  7. riots and thousands of horsemen (or: horses). [I killed Jeho]ram son [of Ahab]
  8. king of Israel, and [I] killed [Ahaz]iahu son of [Jehoram kin-]
  9. g of the House of David, and I set [their towns into ruins and turned ]
  10. their land into [desolation ]
  11. other [... and Jehu ru-]
  12. led over Is[rael and I laid]
  13. siege upon [ ]

Note that the end of line #9 is in brackets which essentially means that Biran, the translator, was guessing.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
Josephus says you're full of crap, Free.

"For God was already rousing in him thoughts of empire and by other to-kens [δι ̓ ἑτέρων σημείων] foreshadowing the throne. He found, moreover, that Josephus proved a veracious prophet in other matters ... Vespasian, having privately questioned the prisoners on these statements and found them true, then began to credit those concerning himself." Jewish War 2:404-407

"So it was when a star, resembling a sword, stood over the city [ὑπὲρ τὴν πόλιν ἄστρον ἔστη ῥομφαίᾳ παραπλήσιον], and a comet [κομήτης] which continued for a year. So again when, before the revolt and the commotion that led to war, at the time when the people were assembling for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthicus, at the ninth hour of the night, so brilliant a light shone round the altar and the sanctuary that it seemed to be broad daylight; and this continued for half an hour. By the inexperienced this was regarded as a good omen, but by the sacred scribes it was a once interpreted in accordance the events that followed.3 J . W. 6.289–291Josephus then describes a series of strange events: a cow that gave birth to a lamb in the temple precincts; the massive eastern gate of the temple precincts that somehow opened itself; at sunset “in all parts of the country” chariots and troops seen in the air “hurtling through the clouds and encompassing the cit-ies”; and a loud chorus shouting, “We are departing hence” (6.292–300).Shortly thereafter Josephus says: But what more than all else incited them to the war was an ambiguous oracle [χρησμὸς ἀμφίβολος], likewise found in their sacred scriptures
Jewish War 6:289-291
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-03-2021, 02:25 AM)Minimalist Wrote: In effect, yes.

[Image: 1024px-Tel_dan_inscription.png]


The only word that the religitards care about is on the larger fragment A on line #9

Quote:Romanized:
  1. [ ‘]mr.’[ ]wgzr[ ]
  2. [ ---].‘by.ysq[.’lwh.bh]tlḥmh.b‘[ ]
  3. wyškb.‘by.yhk.‘l[.‘bhw]h.wy’l.mlky[ yš]
  4. r‘l.qdm.b‘rq.‘by[.w]hmlk.hdd[.][yty]
  5. ‘nh.wyhk.hdd.qdmy[.w]‘pq.mn.šb’[t---]
  6. y.mlky.w‘qtl.ml[kn.šb]’n.‘sry.‘[lpy.r]
  7. kb.w‘lpy.prš.[qtlt.‘yt.yhw]rm.br.[‘ḥ‘b.]
  8. mlk.yšr‘l.wqtl[t.‘yt.‘ḥz]yhw.br[.yhwrm.ml]
  9. k.bytdwd.w‘šm.[‘yt.qryt.hm.ḥrbt.w‘hpk.‘]
  10. yt.‘rq.hm.l[yšmn ]
  11. ‘ḥrn.wlh[... wyhw‘.m]
  12. lk.’l.yš[r‘l... w‘šm.]
  13. mṣr.’[l.
  14. ]
The 1995 translation by Biran reads;[15]
  1. [ ]...[...] and cut [...]
  2. [...] my father went up [against him when h]e fought at [...]
  3. and my father lay down, he went to his [ancestors (viz. became sick and died)]. And the king of I[s-]
  4. rael entered previously in my father's land, [and] Hadad made me king,
  5. And Hadad went in front of me, [and] I departed from the seven [...-]
  6. s of my kingdom, and I slew [seve]nty kin[gs], who harnessed th[ousands of cha-]
  7. riots and thousands of horsemen (or: horses). [I killed Jeho]ram son [of Ahab]
  8. king of Israel, and [I] killed [Ahaz]iahu son of [Jehoram kin-]
  9. g of the House of David, and I set [their towns into ruins and turned ]
  10. their land into [desolation ]
  11. other [... and Jehu ru-]
  12. led over Is[rael and I laid]
  13. siege upon [ ]

Note that the end of line #9 is in brackets which essentially means that Biran, the translator, was guessing.

It's a bitch because it's all fucking backwards. But I see this in the Hebrew:

ך.ביתדוד.ואשם.[אית.קרית.הם.חרבת.ואהפך.א

(9) Beit David. And I will make [their cities ruins and I will turn] <--- translation more or less the standard but ...

The dot is there in Hebrew, and something in Aramaic.

City David I will make .... ?

I would need to find these aramaic characters.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-03-2021, 01:33 AM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 10:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 06:00 PM)Free Wrote: According to Josephus, the Balaam prophesy was in regards to the Romans being sent by his god to destroy Jerusalem. He says exactly that. Read it and weep, champ.

"And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them,—and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans,  and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."


But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction."

Now i ask you directly this question:

According to the words of Josephus above, did he say that the Roman armies of Vespasian fulfilled the Balaam prophesy by the destruction of Jerusalem, or did he say that Vespasian was the foretold Messiah? 

Also, is Vespasian from the Davidic line?

"In Jewish eschatology, the term came to refer to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who will be "anointed" with holy anointing oil, to be king of God's kingdom, and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age. In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God. He is considered to be a great political leader that has descended from King David, hence why he is referred to as Messiah ben David, 'Messiah, son of David'. In Judaism, the messiah is considered to be a great, charismatic leader that is well oriented with the laws that are followed in Judaism.[24] He will be the one who will not "judge by what his eyes see" or "decide by what his ears hear."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah#Judaism

Black.And.White.

Oh. Now we get "black.and.white." No more "periods" ? LOL

The entire POINT is, (you don't even know what the Balaam priophesy is), is that it is NOT the traditional understanding on the messiah. 
This is like talking to a rock. I don't need the likes of you telling me the traditional messiah concept. The fact you posted that, tells me you never even read the Balaam prophesy. Josephus spent paragraph after paragraph describing how the events in Jerusalem met the details of the Balaam Prophesy. You never read it. How would you know ? 

So then, no plan for using history to prove someone wasn't a god. LMAO.
The one you have is delusional at best.

Somebody needs to tell you the "ancient" beliefs regarding the Messiah, and guess who? Me. Why? Because you don't know, and you're using presentism to make conclusions. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

You're drawing conclusions from the pseudo scholarship of whatever the fuck it is you're reading online. You won't find one single ancient document where anyone suggested that Josephus referred to Vespasian as some kind of Messiah, nor will you find that opinion from anyone in ancient times. 

No. 

Josephus disputed the interpretation of his fellow Jews, and literally tells us that his interpretation of the prophecy was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, with Vespasian as the leader. He said it was an act of his god as retribution for the failings of his Jewish countrymen. His fellow Jews took the prophecy to be all about them, thinking it meant that one of their own would lead them to victory as a Messiah over the Romans. Josephus says they were wrong. It was instead all about Vespasian and the Roman legions destroying Jerusalem as instruments of the Jewish god.

And don't talk to me about that prophesy. Everybody in this field has read it, and it's every bit ambiguous as Josephus says it is.

And of course ... 100% bullshit.

It's more than a little interesting that someone who claims to be an historian, thinks it's within the scope of the discipline of History to (even be able) to prove someone is not a god.  Dodgy
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-03-2021, 02:38 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Josephus says you're full of crap, Free.

"For God was already rousing in him thoughts of empire and by other to-kens [δι ̓ ἑτέρων σημείων] foreshadowing the throne. He found, moreover, that Josephus proved a veracious prophet in other matters ... Vespasian, having privately questioned the prisoners on these statements and found them true, then began to credit those concerning himself." Jewish War 2:404-407

"So it was when a star, resembling a sword, stood over the city [ὑπὲρ τὴν πόλιν  ἄστρον  ἔστη  ῥομφαίᾳ  παραπλήσιον],  and  a  comet  [κομήτης]  which  continued  for  a  year.  So  again  when,  before  the  revolt  and  the  commotion that led to war, at the time when the people were assembling for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthicus, at the ninth hour of the night, so brilliant a light shone round  the  altar  and  the sanctuary that it seemed to be broad daylight; and this continued for half an hour. By the inexperienced this was regarded as a good omen, but by the sacred scribes it was a once interpreted in accordance the events that followed.3 J . W. 6.289–291Josephus  then  describes  a  series  of  strange  events:  a  cow  that  gave  birth  to  a  lamb in the temple precincts; the massive eastern gate of the temple precincts that somehow opened itself; at sunset “in all parts of the country” chariots and troops seen in the air “hurtling through the clouds and encompassing the cit-ies”; and a loud chorus shouting, “We are departing hence” (6.292–300).Shortly thereafter Josephus says: But  what  more  than  all  else  incited  them  to  the  war  was  an  ambiguous  oracle  [χρησμὸς  ἀμφίβολος],  likewise  found  in  their  sacred  scriptures
Jewish War 6:289-291

This does absolutely nothing to further your point. You just don't understand what you're reading. It's not complicated.

""For God was already rousing in him thoughts of empire ..."

Josephus is telling you that his god is using Vespasian as an instrument of God's destruction, not as a messiah.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-03-2021, 02:44 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 01:33 AM)Free Wrote:
(02-02-2021, 10:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Oh. Now we get "black.and.white." No more "periods" ? LOL

The entire POINT is, (you don't even know what the Balaam priophesy is), is that it is NOT the traditional understanding on the messiah. 
This is like talking to a rock. I don't need the likes of you telling me the traditional messiah concept. The fact you posted that, tells me you never even read the Balaam prophesy. Josephus spent paragraph after paragraph describing how the events in Jerusalem met the details of the Balaam Prophesy. You never read it. How would you know ? 

So then, no plan for using history to prove someone wasn't a god. LMAO.
The one you have is delusional at best.

Somebody needs to tell you the "ancient" beliefs regarding the Messiah, and guess who? Me. Why? Because you don't know, and you're using presentism to make conclusions. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

You're drawing conclusions from the pseudo scholarship of whatever the fuck it is you're reading online. You won't find one single ancient document where anyone suggested that Josephus referred to Vespasian as some kind of Messiah, nor will you find that opinion from anyone in ancient times. 

No. 

Josephus disputed the interpretation of his fellow Jews, and literally tells us that his interpretation of the prophecy was the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, with Vespasian as the leader. He said it was an act of his god as retribution for the failings of his Jewish countrymen. His fellow Jews took the prophecy to be all about them, thinking it meant that one of their own would lead them to victory as a Messiah over the Romans. Josephus says they were wrong. It was instead all about Vespasian and the Roman legions destroying Jerusalem as instruments of the Jewish god.

And don't talk to me about that prophesy. Everybody in this field has read it, and it's every bit ambiguous as Josephus says it is.

And of course ... 100% bullshit.

It's more than a little interesting that someone who claims to be an historian, thinks it's within the scope of the discipline of History to (even be able) to prove someone is not a god.  Dodgy

To prove or not prove that someone is or is not a god is mutually exclusive of/with the discipline of history. 

History is history.

Logic and reasoning is a separate issue.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-02-2021, 05:17 PM)Free Wrote: I have been proposing the way to do this for years, repeatedly.

With "HISTORY."

Hmmm ..... 
With "HISTORY". That's how you said you'd do it. Now it's turned to Logic. 
Quite the religious concept ya got there. Proving things about the gods with Logic. 
My goodness, you could work for William L. Craig.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-03-2021, 02:50 AM)Free Wrote:
(02-03-2021, 02:38 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Josephus says you're full of crap, Free.

"For God was already rousing in him thoughts of empire and by other to-kens [δι ̓ ἑτέρων σημείων] foreshadowing the throne. He found, moreover, that Josephus proved a veracious prophet in other matters ... Vespasian, having privately questioned the prisoners on these statements and found them true, then began to credit those concerning himself." Jewish War 2:404-407

"So it was when a star, resembling a sword, stood over the city [ὑπὲρ τὴν πόλιν  ἄστρον  ἔστη  ῥομφαίᾳ  παραπλήσιον],  and  a  comet  [κομήτης]  which  continued  for  a  year.  So  again  when,  before  the  revolt  and  the  commotion that led to war, at the time when the people were assembling for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthicus, at the ninth hour of the night, so brilliant a light shone round  the  altar  and  the sanctuary that it seemed to be broad daylight; and this continued for half an hour. By the inexperienced this was regarded as a good omen, but by the sacred scribes it was a once interpreted in accordance the events that followed.3 J . W. 6.289–291Josephus  then  describes  a  series  of  strange  events:  a  cow  that  gave  birth  to  a  lamb in the temple precincts; the massive eastern gate of the temple precincts that somehow opened itself; at sunset “in all parts of the country” chariots and troops seen in the air “hurtling through the clouds and encompassing the cit-ies”; and a loud chorus shouting, “We are departing hence” (6.292–300).Shortly thereafter Josephus says: But  what  more  than  all  else  incited  them  to  the  war  was  an  ambiguous  oracle  [χρησμὸς  ἀμφίβολος],  likewise  found  in  their  sacred  scriptures
Jewish War 6:289-291

This does absolutely nothing to further your point. You just don't understand what you're reading. It's not complicated.

That's not an argument. Dismissed. 
All that means is that the ONLY way to understand it is your way.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
About the Prophesy, the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria (15 CE - after 50) wrote :

For there shall come a man, says the oracle, and leading his host to war he shall subdue great and populous nations, because God has sent to his aid the reinforcement which befits the godly.note  [On rewards and punishments 95.]
When a comet appeared in late 64 CE,note many Jews expected the coming of the Messiah, and accepted war against the Romans. This is also mentioned in Roman sources, because the ruler it seemed to refer to could also be identified with the emperor Vespasian. For example, Suetonius writes in his Lives of the Twelve Emperors:

There had spread over all the Orient an old an established belief that it was fated at that time for a man coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome, as it turned out, the Jews took to themselves, and they revolted accordingly.note [Suetonius, Vespasian 4.5.]

Although the result of this rebellion was the destruction of the Temple (more), the interpretation was still influential in the years after the war. The most famous reference to Balaam's prophecy is, of course, the story about the "star in the east" that was seen by the Magians when Jesus was born. It is mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew,note which was written after c.75 CE.
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Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus
(02-03-2021, 03:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: About the Prophesy, the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria (15 CE - after 50) wrote :

For there shall come a man, says the oracle, and leading his host to war he shall subdue great and populous nations, because God has sent to his aid the reinforcement which befits the godly.note  [On rewards and punishments 95.]
When a comet appeared in late 64 CE,note many Jews expected the coming of the Messiah, and accepted war against the Romans. This is also mentioned in Roman sources, because the ruler it seemed to refer to could also be identified with the emperor Vespasian. For example, Suetonius writes in his Lives of the Twelve Emperors:

There had spread over all the Orient an old an established belief that it was fated at that time for a man coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome, as it turned out, the Jews took to themselves, and they revolted accordingly.note [Suetonius, Vespasian 4.5.]

Although the result of this rebellion was the destruction of the Temple (more), the interpretation was still influential in the years after the war. The most famous reference to Balaam's prophecy is, of course, the story about the "star in the east" that was seen by the Magians when Jesus was born. It is mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew,note which was written after c.75 CE.

All of that fits in with what I have been sayings nice and neat. Even Suetonius agrees.

"There had spread over all the Orient an old an established belief that it was fated at that time for a man coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome, as it turned out, the Jews took to themselves, and they revolted accordingly."

The Jews took it to mean the coming of their Messiah. Josephus and Suetonius are in agreement that those Jews were wrong. It was in reference to Vespasian, as an instrument of the wrath of God against the sinful Jews.

Where have we seen that before? All over the OT.
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