Euthanasia: a good and gentle death

[Dom]

Give access to clean, highly reliable, and readily accessible methods. and maybe brain murals might become less of a problem... Far as I could find, the most reliable methods are medical-grade overdose, gunshot to the head, and trains. Not necessarily in that order.

Helium

Really, helium would be lethal?  Then all I need to do is buy a tank and perhaps a few party balloons to avoid drawing attention.  Maybe I could record my final words in a Donald Duck voice.

There are societies who aid in suicide and they use Helium and a plastic bag. Nitrogen and argon work too but are less common. http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/plastic-bag-gas

[Thumpalumpacus]

Regardless of what it might seem at times, I personally make it a habit to never lie on forums, particularly those that are important to me—like this one.  What you see is what you get with me.

This is how I do it. I might not reveal everything at any one time, but life is too short to play bullshit online, so I write what I say and say what I write.

And just as in real life, sometimes I'm a peach and sometimes I'm a cunt. I do my best to be decent, lay out back-story even when it reflects poorly on me, and don't worry about what folks think. They don't have to think of me at all and I'm good with that, too. I trust that folks will get the real me, and so I lay it out that way. It's a lot easier on the ole memory cells, too. Braggadocio has a way of catching itself.

Now, I'm not gonna tell just anyone about that time that I -- pardon me, gotta run, dinner is ready.

[Fireball]

Regardless of what it might seem at times, I personally make it a habit to never lie on forums, particularly those that are important to me—like this one.  What you see is what you get with me.

This is how I do it. I might not reveal everything at any one time, but life is too short to play bullshit online, so I write what I say and say what I write.

And just as in real life, sometimes I'm a peach and sometimes I'm a cunt. I do my best to be decent, lay out back-story even when it reflects poorly on me, and don't worry about what folks think. They don't have to think of me at all and I'm good with that, too. I trust that folks will get the real me, and so I lay it out that way. It's a lot easier on the ole memory cells, too. Braggadocio has a way of catching itself.

Now, I'm not gonna tell just anyone about that time that I -- pardon me, gotta run, dinner is ready.

Indeed. I haven't time in my life to keep track of what lie I said to which person. It's a lot easier to get up in the morning without thinking about that. I know people who lie as a matter of course. Now that I think about it though, nobody ever believes what they say anyway, so I guess it all works out.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Now that I think about it though, nobody ever believes what they say anyway, so I guess it all works out.

That really is what it boils down to, isn't it? If you shit on your own credibility, that's the bed you get to sleep in.

Much better to simply go warts-and-all and look forward to getting to know the folks who understand that life can be a muddy thing. If nothing else, I know that I've made real friends, at that point.

[Fireball]

Now that I think about it though, nobody ever believes what they say anyway, so I guess it all works out.

That really is what it boils down to, isn't it? If you shit on your own credibility, that's the bed you get to sleep in.

Much better to simply go warts-and-all and look forward to getting to know the folks who understand that life can be a muddy thing. If nothing else, I know that I've made real friends, at that point.

I've had people in my life who have expected a coddled reply to a bad situation. Example- I can go as far as to gently explain that their dog is dead. "Doggy Heaven" isn't in the cards. And building false hope by telling someone that the dog ran away and we might be able to find it is beyond reprehensible, in my book.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Now that I think about it though, nobody ever believes what they say anyway, so I guess it all works out.

That really is what it boils down to, isn't it? If you shit on your own credibility, that's the bed you get to sleep in.

Much better to simply go warts-and-all and look forward to getting to know the folks who understand that life can be a muddy thing. If nothing else, I know that I've made real friends, at that point.

I've had people in my life who have expected a coddled reply to a bad situation. Example- I can go as far as to gently explain that their dog is dead. "Doggy Heaven" isn't in the cards. And building false hope by telling someone that the dog ran away and we might be able to find it is beyond reprehensible, in my book.

Just like here, in real life people have mixed opinions of me, because while I work to be diplomatic, there are some things that tact won't cover over. "Dude, you're fucking up," "Nah, I don't like cocker spaniels", "I'll say this once and then shut up about it," ... those are moments where I know someone might be annoyed that my desire to be tactful doesn't outweigh any ugly truth.

It's all good, I like people who can take vinegar as well as sugar. Not everyone can. I've had people walk away from me for simple honesty on my part. Okay, walk away. There's nothing you're going to give me that is worth trading honesty, y'know? 

I don't mind disagreement, but I'll be damned if agreement comes at the cost of me biting my goddamned tongue when you're stepping on me.

Yeah, I'll probably die alone. Oh well. I'll live.

[jerry mcmasters]

Yeah, I'll probably die alone. Oh well. I'll live.

Just log in here before the bitter end.  I'll chew you out for something or another.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yeah, I'll probably die alone. Oh well. I'll live.

Just log in here before the bitter end.  I'll chew you out for something or another.

Brotha invites himself to my deathbed. This is the kinda guy Jerry is, y'all.

[jerry mcmasters]

Yeah, I'll probably die alone. Oh well. I'll live.

Just log in here before the bitter end.  I'll chew you out for something or another.

Brotha invites himself to my deathbed. This is the kinda guy Jerry is, y'all.

[Vera]

Fucking Jerry

[EvieTheAvocado]

so I write what I say and say what I write.

And just as in real life, sometimes I'm a peach and sometimes I'm a cunt.

Yeah, I mean, me too. I basically live my entire life by thinking aloud.

[Thumpalumpacus]

so I write what I say and say what I write.

And just as in real life, sometimes I'm a peach and sometimes I'm a cunt.

Yeah, I mean, me too. I basically live my entire life by thinking aloud.

That's not what I meant. I do stay quiet about my own life because often enough it's not interesting. When I do talk about my life, though, there are no lies involved. WYSIWYG.

[EvieTheAvocado]

so I write what I say and say what I write.

And just as in real life, sometimes I'm a peach and sometimes I'm a cunt.

Yeah, I mean, me too. I basically live my entire life by thinking aloud.

That's not what I meant. I do stay quiet about my own life because often enough it's not interesting. When I do talk about my life, though, there are no lies involved. WYSIWYG.

Oh. Well, you said you both mean what you say and say what you mean ... so I assumed that that is what you meant when you said what you said because that's what that means when that is said.

But I guess you didn't say "always".

Or, maybe what you meant to say was that you do always mean everything that you say but you don't always say everything that you mean.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yeah, I mean, me too. I basically live my entire life by thinking aloud.

That's not what I meant. I do stay quiet about my own life because often enough it's not interesting. When I do talk about my life, though, there are no lies involved. WYSIWYG.

Oh. Well, you said you both mean what you say and say what you mean ... so I assumed that that is what you meant when you said what you said because that's what that means when that is said.

But I guess you didn't say "always".

Exactly. I feel no need to spew every last detail of my life, or thought, or feeling every minute of the day. When I do say something, though, it's straight-up. Not everybody lies about themselves online, Jesse's assertion aside. But no one needs to know what I had for lunch, or why this or that topic affects me because when I was seven years old ...

Or, maybe what you meant to say was that you do always mean everything that you say but you don't always say everything that you mean.

No, I said exactly what I meant.

[Dom]

That's not what I meant. I do stay quiet about my own life because often enough it's not interesting. When I do talk about my life, though, there are no lies involved. WYSIWYG.

Oh. Well, you said you both mean what you say and say what you mean ... so I assumed that that is what you meant when you said what you said because that's what that means when that is said.

But I guess you didn't say "always".

Exactly. I feel no need to spew every last detail of my life, or thought, or feeling every minute of the day. When I do say something, though, it's straight-up. Not everybody lies about themselves online, Jesse's assertion aside. But no one needs to know what I had for lunch, or why this or that topic affects me because when I was seven years old ...

Or, maybe what you meant to say was that you do always mean everything that you say but you don't always say everything that you mean.

No, I said exactly what I meant.

Yabbut, I need to know what you had for lunch!!!

[EvieTheAvocado]

I feel no need to spew every last detail of my life, or thought, or feeling every minute of the day. When I do say something, though, it's straight-up.

See, this does sound exactly like always meaning everything that you say but not always saying everything that you mean.

No, I said exactly what I meant.

Well, I dunno what more to say, really! The above seems correct.

[JesseB]

I feel no need to spew every last detail of my life, or thought, or feeling every minute of the day. When I do say something, though, it's straight-up.

See, this does sound exactly like always meaning everything that you say but not always saying everything that you mean.

No, I said exactly what I meant.

Well, I dunno what more to say, really! The above seems correct.

Pretty sure it's more a case of someone saying "I never lie" and you can always trust a person who says that lol.

[Fireball]

I feel no need to spew every last detail of my life, or thought, or feeling every minute of the day. When I do say something, though, it's straight-up.

See, this does sound exactly like always meaning everything that you say but not always saying everything that you mean.

No, I said exactly what I meant.

Well, I dunno what more to say, really! The above seems correct.

Pretty sure it's more a case of someone saying "I never lie" and you can always trust a person who says that lol.

You can take what Thump says and go back to cross correlate what he said at some other time, and it'll be the same. Your interpretation, depending on your mood, may be different. Thump is one of the most straightforward people I've ever encountered on the internet.  Some people just seem to think that it can't be true. Some people impute meaning or slice and dice what he says, but in the end, what he said is what he said. Make of this what you will.

[Vera]

 Some people just seem to think that it can't be true. Some people impute meaning or slice and dice what he says, but in the end, what he said is what he said. Make of this what you will.

We project our own shadows onto others.

[JesseB]

See, this does sound exactly like always meaning everything that you say but not always saying everything that you mean.


Well, I dunno what more to say, really! The above seems correct.

Pretty sure it's more a case of someone saying "I never lie" and you can always trust a person who says that lol.

You can take what Thump says and go back to cross correlate what he said at some other time, and it'll be the same. Your interpretation, depending on your mood, may be different. Thump is one of the most straightforward people I've ever encountered on the internet.  Some people just seem to think that it can't be true. Some people impute meaning or slice and dice what he says, but in the end, what he said is what he said. Make of this what you will.

Uh.... You do realize I just don't trust anyone ya? But yes, he's pretty straightforward. That doesn't mean he doesn't lie. And my personal feelings about thump haven't changed since I met him. I don't dislike him at all. His feelings about me may have changed, but I'm pretty tolerant of people as they are. Don't expect or demand perfection. @Thumpalumpacus is over all a pretty decent person. And regardless what he says about me, I stand by that.

Oh and just so you know, I did call him a bigot. To me that isn't an insult. nor should it be.... Maybe other people thought I was trying to insult him by saying that? I wasn't. Hatred of people simply because they hold different ideas or beliefs than you is just something people do, to some extent I assume everyone is probably a bit bigoted. Don't get me wrong, I've insulted him at times too... but that wasn't intended as an insult. He's insulted me too. I'm not particularly offended or bothered by that. Insults have a long and honorable tradition.

[Vera]

"It's hard to see your mother die from euthanasia, but it was not our decision - it was her decision," says Anneke.

"There is no right or wrong decision. It's hard to decide you want to die but it's as hard to decide, I think, that you want to live. She hated it when someone said: 'It's so brave that you made this decision.' She said choosing to live with dementia is just as brave."

So, because of:

"You can write down what your fears are. What you don't want to experience. But it is a wish. It is an expression of fear, and as we know, people change.

"In the beginning they say: 'Oh no, I don't want to live in an old people's home.' Or, 'I don't want to be put in a wheelchair,' and it happens. People always find ways to cope. That's a beautiful thing about being human."

So she argues that before helping someone to die, doctors must always check that this is still the patient's wish. And with late-stage dementia patients, this is not always possible.

"If you can't talk to a patient, you don't know what the patient wants," she says.

We have:

"It's not unusual for Dutch patients with dementia to request euthanasia, but in the later stages of the disease they may be incapable of reconfirming their consent - one doctor is currently facing prosecution in such a case. But fear of being refused is pushing some to ask to die earlier than they would have liked."


"Yesterday I spoke to a former neighbour on the phone," Annie says. "She said, 'But I don't understand. You can still do everything can't you?' I said, 'Well the point is, first of all I can't. And second, if I wait until the moment has come to stop it'll be too late. I won't be allowed to do euthanasia any more.'

Show ContentSpoiler:

But if Berna van Baarsen is right that the pendulum has been swinging in favour of euthanasia for patients with late-stage dementia, the prosecution of a doctor involved in one such case may push it back in the opposite direction.

The case involved a 74-year-old woman who had signed a written declaration saying she wanted euthanasia, but only when she said she was ready. And she had also said, at other times, that she did not want to die by euthanasia.

The doctor, who worked in a nursing home, put a sedative into the woman's coffee without telling her. Then the woman woke up while the doctor attempted to give her a lethal injection.

She had to be restrained by relatives while the euthanasia was completed, although the level of restraint used is disputed.

Jacob Kohnstamm, co-ordinating chairman of the Dutch review committees, which examine every euthanasia case, says it is clear the doctor overstepped the mark.

"The commission said the written declaration wasn't good enough, and the doctor should have stopped the procedure the moment the patient got up," he says.

The committee ruled that the doctor had not acted with due care, and referred the case to prosecutors.

The case will be watched closely when it comes to trial because it may help to clarify the circumstances when dementia patients can die by euthanasia.

But while for many doctors this will be welcome, it is an unnerving prospect for those who are prepared to carry out euthanasia even on people with advanced dementia - such as Annie Zwijnenberg's doctor, Constance de Vries.

She is content to end the lives of patients who may find it difficult to express their wishes, as long as they were always very clear about their wishes when they could express them.

It's important to have a long-term relationship with the patients and their families, she says, to enable her to talk to them about their written declaration, and observe over a long period of time an unwavering desire for euthanasia.

She tells me about one such case.

"The lady was very unhappy; she was crying, and yelling, and not eating, and not sleeping, and aggressive to other people. When you saw her, you saw how unhappy she was. And she always had it in the statement: 'When I don't recognise my grandchildren any more, then I want to die.'"

As the moment when she could no longer recognise her grandchildren had arrived, Constance de Vries proceeded with euthanasia, with the support of the woman's family.

"When I gave her a glass of fruit juice, I said, 'When you take it, you will sleep forever.' She looked at her daughter, and the daughter said, 'It's OK mum.' And she took it. I don't know if she did understand fully, but I know what we did was OK, so unhappy was she."

I ask her if the first prosecution of a doctor for ending a patient's life by euthanasia makes her worried about being involved in such cases?

"This is making me worried, yes," she says. "I'm a little bit afraid of the judgement afterwards. So I try to be very, very, very sure about what I'm doing."

But does she have any intention of stopping?

"No," she says, adamantly.

She does concede, though, that the case may make it harder for patients with late-stage dementia to get euthanasia in future. And if this happens, it could also have a knock-on effect for those with early-stage dementia who want euthanasia at some point in the future.

Many of them already worry that if they wait too long they'll be denied it.

The fear has become so commonplace that a shorthand phrase has been adopted for the perfect time to have euthanasia - "five to midnight". Just like Cinderella, everyone wants to wait until the last possible moment before they leave the party - until five to midnight - but many feel that it's too risky to leave it that long.

It's the one regret Anneke and Frank express about the death of their mother, Annie.

"She was very afraid that even when she had the law on her side, or she had the doctors on her side that there would be a point that somebody would say: 'OK, but sorry you're too far gone now, you can't make this decision any more, so sorry you're too late,'" Anneke says.

Annie herself talks about it in Gerald van Bronkhorst's film, which alludes to her fear in its title, Before It's Too Late.

"Yesterday I spoke to a former neighbour on the phone," Annie says. "She said, 'But I don't understand. You can still do everything can't you?' I said, 'Well the point is, first of all I can't. And second, if I wait until the moment has come to stop it'll be too late. I won't be allowed to do euthanasia any more.'"

(@Dom, sorry to bother you, guys, but can we maybe move this to the philosophy and ethics sections. My bad, I know...)

[Dom]

Done.

That is the biggest issue with determining when to call it a day. 

Many degenerative diseases creep so slowly, you don't notice it except occasionally, after you lose another function. That means that you have to decide to leave when you still have some good times left. And that sucks.

[Vera]

Done.

That is the biggest issue with determining when to call it a day. 

Many degenerative diseases creep so slowly, you don't notice it except occasionally, after you lose another function. That means that you have to decide to leave when you still have some good times left. And that sucks.

Thanks, Dom.

And that's it, exactly. Like that vile thing in the article I published before that one had the gall to use as an argument *against* euthanasia (even though he was too big of a dishonest coward to actually come out and say it clearly) - some degenerative diseases you can live with for a long time. He was talking more about neurological diseases, but how are either dementia or something that slowly kills your body's capacity to do anything, up till breathe, an argument against euthanasia, because you can live with them for *longer*!

I swear, I get angry every time I think of that disgusting article.

[Vera]

My cousins wife came home and found her father-in-law had shot himself in the head.  The scene was horrific.  She was in therapy for a couple of years.  They finally had to move to another house because the memories in that house were too horrible.    One time I was listening to a podcast of the worst jobs people do.  Cleaning up after a  gun to the head at close range was one of the worst.  Brain matter is everywhere.   Sometimes the drywall has to be replaced. The smell is hard to remove.  If I recall correctly, gun shot suicide clean up had a very high job turnover rate.   Just lettin ya know, Chas.

In Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, did it like this (he was a police chief, the boys are the cops)

[Vera]

"A terminally ill man who is due to die on Thursday morning in Switzerland has said his final weeks have been marred by police inquiries into his wife’s involvement in his plans.

Geoffrey Whaley, 80, from Chalfont St Peter in Buckinghamshire, had arranged plans to end his life at the Dignitas facility on Thursday after he was diagnosed with motor neurone disease in 2016.

In the final weeks of his life, he and his wife Ann, 76, were investigated by Thames Valley police following an anonymous phone call made to social services alerting them of the couple’s intentions to travel to Dignitas."

If there were hell, there would be a special place in it for someone this vile and low.

Show ContentSpoiler:

“I did not fear death, but I did fear the journey,” he said. When I eventually got the ‘green light’ from Dignitas, a weight lifted; I was able to get on with living without the constant mental anguish over my death.

“But then, as I was saying my final goodbyes and preparing myself for the end, the final, biggest bomb dropped and I could no longer keep it together.

“This bomb was in fact an anonymous phone call to social services who informed the police of my plans to go to Switzerland. Within hours Ann and I were facing a criminal investigation. The thought that I might not make it to Switzerland, or that, if I did, Ann might be facing 14 years in jail for helping me, was almost too much to bear.

“No family should ever have to endure the torment we have undergone in recent weeks, but it will be easier to bear knowing that by sharing it we can contribute to future change,” he said.

“I sincerely hope that you will truly listen to our story and see the suffering you are inflicting by upholding the status quo.”

And another one.

Show ContentSpoiler:

On 15 November 2016 at approximately 11.45am British time, my dear wife Helen died at Dignitas – peacefully, painlessly and quickly, just as Geoff did. She was 59, and we had been together 33 years.

Helen had been living with a rare lung condition, and by 2016 her lung capacity had plummeted to just 15%. Every day was a painful struggle and it was clear she was dying. We realised that palliative care in the UK would not be enough to allow her the peaceful death she wanted, and after prolonged thought and discussion we made the heartbreaking decision to travel to Dignitas. I was to some extent prepared for the months of organisation and the traumatic journey to Switzerland, but what I did not anticipate was the nightmare I experienced on my return to the UK.

Within hours of arriving home, the police were knocking at my door. Over the next seven months, when I should have been left in peace to grieve for Helen, I was questioned under caution and subjected to a police investigation. While Helen had done all the planning herself, I was under suspicion because I had accompanied her to Dignitas, and that was enough for me to be investigated under the Suicide Act 1961. Anyone “assisting a suicide” is liable for up to 14 years in prison. The investigation against me was eventually dropped, and the same goes for Ann Whaley unless new information comes to light – but we have been made to feel like criminals for doing right by our loved ones.

During those months after Helen’s death, my first instinct was to hide from the world and hope it would all go away. I still feel that I suffer with the trauma this caused, which exacerbated my existing depression. I did not comprehend then, nor do I now, the moral or legal rationale for such an invasion of privacy and a person’s autonomy.

As I understand it, assisted dying is about compassion, care and, importantly, the right of a terminally ill person to choose when, and in what way, their life should end: when the individual concerned is mentally competent, I don’t believe it is another person’s right to obstruct this. Helen, a former college lecturer, was one of the most rational and lucid people that I have ever met.

Is not the standard of a society governed by the way it treats its most vulnerable and weakest members? Surely the dying are among the most deserving of our compassion. Do we not have a duty to respect another’s decision over their own body, even if one may not wish it for oneself? Any assisted dying law would of course require strict eligibility criteria and robust safeguards. This has been possible in several US states, across Canada and in Victoria, Australia – there is no reason why the same cannot be achieved here.