You Don't Really Love Me!

[Yonadav]

This thread is inspired by Glasophile's LEGG arguments.  Essentially, the LEGG arguments say that an all powerful, all knowing, and loving deity would achieve greater goods without lesser evils.  I jokingly call these "G-d doesn't really love me" arguments.

So here is the scenario.  The Man Upstairs reveals himself.  He proves to everyone that he really exists, that he really created the universe, and he really is omnipotent and omniscient.  So for the purpose of this discussion, we all now believe in an all knowing and all powerful creator of the universe. Let's not worry about which religion got it right, here.  Or let's just say that it was the Mormons.  Whatever.

BUT, we still doubt that he really loves us. Let him prove his love to you, baby!  What will he have to do to prove his love to you?  Or would you not need proof?

[Dom]

Get rid of the world's evils. Disease, hatred, all of it.

[Yonadav]

Get rid of the world's evils. Disease, hatred, all of it.

A world without sickness and hatred.  OK, done.  Anything else?

[RobbyPants]

For a start, he'd have to convincingly explain why he causes or allows Tay Sachs to exist. I'm not saying that would sell me, but without a good answer for that, I cannot get in the head space of defending a creator deity like that.

[Yonadav]

No sickness
No hatred
A convincing explanation for why Tay Sachs has been caused or allowed.

[Alan V]

At minimum, a God who loves humans should care for them in the same ways as good parents care for their children.
1) Make sure humans have enough for their basic needs,
2) Protect them from excessive harm,
3) Encourage them to learn,
4) Provide useful and timely guidance,
5) Watch over them and intervene when necessary to do any of the above.

Without performing even as well as loving parents routinely do, how can we assert any loving God worthy of the title exists?

[Aliza]

For a start, he'd have to convincingly explain why he causes or allows Tay Sachs to exist. I'm not saying that would sell me, but without a good answer for that, I cannot get in the head space of defending a creator deity like that.

What if the reason Tay Sachs exists is because whatever mechanism that causes mutations sometimes has positive effects, and sometimes negatives effects, but that the ability to embrace the positive ones and code out the negative ones was always within our power?

If G-d came down and said that, and then said, "I'm not turning off mutation because you need it," I'd be inspired to start working to control mutation rather than feeling hurt that G-d didn't fix everything for me.

[Yonadav]

No sickness
No hatred
A convincing explanation for why Tay Sachs has been caused or allowed.
Make sure humans have enough for their basic needs.
Protect them from excessive harm.
Encourage them to learn.
Provide useful and timely guidance.
Watch over them and intervene when necessary to do any of the above.

[Unsapien]

BUT, we still doubt that he really loves us. Let him prove his love to you, baby!  What will he have to do to prove his love to you? 

Die.

EDIT: AND not that fake 3 day weekend shit.

[Szuchow]

All powerful god that allowed Black Death, Holodomor, Holocaust, Great Leap Forward and countles other atrocities can't do anything to prove his love. It's simply imposdible given what happened on his watch.

[Yonadav]

No sickness
No hatred
A convincing explanation for why Tay Sachs has been caused or allowed.
Make sure humans have enough for their basic needs.
Protect them from excessive harm.
Encourage them to learn.
Provide useful and timely guidance.
Watch over them and intervene when necessary to do any of the above.
Die.

[Free]

This thread is inspired by Glasophile's LEGG arguments.  Essentially, the LEGG arguments say that an all powerful, all knowing, and loving deity would achieve greater goods without lesser evils.  I jokingly call these "G-d doesn't really love me" arguments.

So here is the scenario.  The Man Upstairs reveals himself.  He proves to everyone that he really exists, that he really created the universe, and he really is omnipotent and omniscient.  So for the purpose of this discussion, we all now believe in an all knowing and all powerful creator of the universe. Let's not worry about which religion got it right, here.  Or let's just say that it was the Mormons.  Whatever.

BUT, we still doubt that he really loves us. Let him prove his love to you, baby!  What will he have to do to prove his love to you?  Or would you not need proof?

He could get me a Peanut Buster Parfait from DQ.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Prove that He loves me? The Megamillions jackpot will be about 2 billion dollars at the next drawing, so....

[Dancefortwo]

All powerful god that allowed Black Death, Holodomor, Holocaust, Great Leap Forward and countles other atrocities can't do anything to prove his love. It's simply imposdible given what happened on his watch.

Yeah, that Bubonic Plague/Black Death episode  is a real deal breaker for me.  Seventy five to 200 million people died from that disease and it's a horrific, nightmarish  kind of death too. Yet, this deity  was powerless to do anything to ease the suffering?    Earthquakes.   What's the deal with earthquakes which  have killed millions. This god suppoedly buit this planet  but he/she/it can't keep  the ground from shifiting around destroying people lives, killing babies and ripping homes apart? What a moronic, pathetic god this is.   You'd think that, hummm,  maybe this god doesn't exist.

[jerry mcmasters]

Yeah I would say it's impossible to prove love because of natural disasters and diseases of the past. If he appeared now he would have to explain that the previous stuff really was love even though it didn't look like it. It's an argument some theists make ("You just don't understand, God is mysterious and those are all things that are in his good purpose and are actually loving things") but presumably God would be able to make it more convincing? He could maybe make us understand why horrors of the past actually equaled love.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[Yonadav]

No sickness.
No hatred.
A convincing explanation for why Tay Sachs has been caused or allowed.
Make sure humans have enough for their basic needs.
Protect them from excessive harm.
Encourage them to learn.
Provide useful and timely guidance.
Watch over them and intervene when necessary to do any of the above.
Die.
Make us understand why horrors of the past actually equaled love.

[Alan V]

Essentially, the LEGG arguments say that an all powerful, all knowing, and loving deity would achieve greater goods without lesser evils.

If a God created the very nature of the universe, or could intervene in the laws of the universe, then he could make anything any way he wanted.  He could achieve greater goods without lesser evils.  That he doesn't do so means he can't be perfectly good.  At minimum, he is missing one of three attributes.

If God created humans, he is responsible for us.  If he is all-powerful and all-knowing means he could intervene anytime about anything.  That he doesn't means, at minimum, he is missing one of the three attributes.

Why did you name this problem "G-d doesn't really love me arguments" unless you are being sarcastic?  For such a God to stand idly by while children suffer painfully from cancer, for instance, is not exactly a laughing matter.

[Thumpalumpacus]

This thread is inspired by Glasophile's LEGG arguments.  Essentially, the LEGG arguments say that an all powerful, all knowing, and loving deity would achieve greater goods without lesser evils.  I jokingly call these "G-d doesn't really love me" arguments.

So here is the scenario.  The Man Upstairs reveals himself.  He proves to everyone that he really exists, that he really created the universe, and he really is omnipotent and omniscient.  So for the purpose of this discussion, we all now believe in an all knowing and all powerful creator of the universe. Let's not worry about which religion got it right, here.  Or let's just say that it was the Mormons.  Whatever.

BUT, we still doubt that he really loves us. Let him prove his love to you, baby!  What will he have to do to prove his love to you?  Or would you not need proof?

He could stop trying to kill my son's mom with cancer, that'd be a good start.

As for loving me personally, meh. I'd rather he "feed the people with nothing to eat / shoe the children with no shoes on their feet." I'm not needy for myself, I just need to see some showmedon'ttellme stuff.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yeah I would say it's impossible to prove love because of natural disasters and diseases of the past.  If he appeared now he would have to explain that the previous stuff really was love even though it didn't look like it.  It's an argument some theists make ("You just don't understand, God is mysterious and those are all things that are in his good purpose and are actually loving things") but presumably God would be able to make it more convincing?  He could maybe make us understand why horrors of the past actually equaled love.

The Problem of Evil is what began the erosion of my faith. If I could quash undeserved evils my son suffered, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Essentially, the LEGG arguments say that an all powerful, all knowing, and loving deity would achieve greater goods without lesser evils.

If a God created the very nature of the universe, or could intervene in the laws of the universe, then he could make anything any way he wanted.  He could achieve greater goods without lesser evils.  That he doesn't do so means he can't be perfectly good.  At minimum, he is missing one of three attributes.

If God created humans, he is responsible for us.  If he is all-powerful and all-knowing means he could intervene anytime about anything.  That he doesn't means, at minimum, he is missing one of the three attributes.

Why did you name this problem "G-d doesn't really love me arguments" unless you are being sarcastic?  For such a God to stand idly by while children suffer painfully from cancer, for instance, is not exactly a laughing matter.

An omnimax god who is perfectly good is contradicted by the suffering we ourselves witness. It's not about whether "God loves me", it's about whether the claim withstands the observations.

[RobbyPants]

What if the reason Tay Sachs exists is because whatever mechanism that causes mutations sometimes has positive effects, and sometimes negatives effects, but that the ability to embrace the positive ones and code out the negative ones was always within our power?

If G-d came down and said that, and then said, "I'm not turning off mutation because you need it," I'd be inspired to start working to control mutation rather than feeling hurt that G-d didn't fix everything for me.

So, this God can create DNA, circulatory systems, gravity, and quarks, but it can’t control how mutations work? It sounds more like a careless tinkerer playing with things it doesn’t understand than an omnipotent god. I mean, it’s not logically impossible, but Yonadav’s OP posits an omnipotent god, so this explanation wouldn’t fit with the topic.

[GirlyMan]

"You Don't Really Love Me"

Nobody does. ... Come here and give us a big girly hug, you.

[Unsapien]

During my last days of trying to find a god that made sense, I did find a way to make one that I could square with the world I know.

Unfortunately, it required him to be a psychopath. That's when I walked away.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You say "psychopath" like it's a bad thing.