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12-22-2018, 06:52 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2018, 06:53 PM by jerryg.)
Is Morality Objective?
(12-22-2018, 04:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: There are all kinds of cultures that have radically different ideas of what is "good", or what actually promotes the good or maximizes "well being".
Should a 17 year-old immigrant girl be allowed to have an abortion if she wants one ? Is there agreement on that ? Is there an "objective" way to evaluate that ? Some cultures sacrificed their children to bring about a "good" effect with the god(s) they firmly believed were in charge of their world. Whose "well-being" should be maximized ? Should a 14 girl who is raped, be forced to carry the baby ? There are ALWAYS competing interests and claims that have to be considered. I often read the minutes of the hospital's Ethics Committee, and the cases are NEVER black and white or simple. If they weren't they would not be placed in front of the committee, or wasting their time. Saw one recently where a twenty year old, estranged from his parents, living with a friend, took LSD, and was severely injured and incapacitated. Who should be making decisions for him ? Is there an objective guide for that ? For most of the history of the ancient Near East, women were told whom they would marry, and men arranged the contracts. How did THAT happen, if there actually was some sort of "objective" morality in place. They thought they were doing the right thing. The polygamous men and women who practiced Mormonism thought they were doing the right thing. African parents who subject their daughters to genital mutilation think they are doing what is right. If morality is "objective, how is it all these people have different ideas about what that means ?
Real-life ethical dilemmas are messy and complex .. and there is no way a simple-minded "objective" morality can have anything to say or be of any value in guiding these real-life complex situations. There is never only one side whose interest needs evaluating or maximizing. What if the person involved has a totally different "cosmic model" (even an obviously flawed one) than everyone else involved ? Do they have the right to have their wishes honored ?
There is no actual thing as "natural law". 50 years ago, religious people were saying that same-sex couples were violating "natural law". Now we find out that every species on the planet has a small percentage who are oriented in an alternate way, including humans, and that the orientation is probably set by hormone "washes" in utero, and that choice is not possible. "Natural law" is nothing except what the culture one is raised in teaches its members to favor and dis-favor. Murder ? Nope. Soldiers can kill if they need to. Anthropology leads the way with regard to what morality is, and how it arose. Ethics teaches various theories of how morality may be applied, and there are MANY various ethical systems and theories. One of the most interesting I saw at Cal Tech was Carol Gilligan's "Duty to Care", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_care
Think of it like the existence of God. All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods. And then there are atheists who say there isn't one. All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature. Even if we are all wrong, that doesn't make the existence and nature of God subjective. There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
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12-24-2018, 12:15 AM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-22-2018, 04:25 AM)jerryg Wrote: (12-21-2018, 10:34 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Quote:On a scale of 1 to 100, how much is a human life worth? How much is a dog worth? We can all come up with a lot of answers based on a lot of things.
But the point is that there is an answer that is independent of what we think. it doesn't matter if people disagree. That's besides the entire point. The whole point with objectivity is that people don't have to agree.
Do you think it is possible, that independent of human thinking, humans objectively have 0 value?
Possible? Yes. But I don't think it's a sound possibility. After all, even without humans around ... animal (and alien) suffering still matters.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.
(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.
(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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12-24-2018, 03:06 AM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-22-2018, 06:52 PM)jerryg Wrote: (12-22-2018, 04:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: There are all kinds of cultures that have radically different ideas of what is "good", or what actually promotes the good or maximizes "well being".
Should a 17 year-old immigrant girl be allowed to have an abortion if she wants one ? Is there agreement on that ? Is there an "objective" way to evaluate that ? Some cultures sacrificed their children to bring about a "good" effect with the god(s) they firmly believed were in charge of their world. Whose "well-being" should be maximized ? Should a 14 girl who is raped, be forced to carry the baby ? There are ALWAYS competing interests and claims that have to be considered. I often read the minutes of the hospital's Ethics Committee, and the cases are NEVER black and white or simple. If they weren't they would not be placed in front of the committee, or wasting their time. Saw one recently where a twenty year old, estranged from his parents, living with a friend, took LSD, and was severely injured and incapacitated. Who should be making decisions for him ? Is there an objective guide for that ? For most of the history of the ancient Near East, women were told whom they would marry, and men arranged the contracts. How did THAT happen, if there actually was some sort of "objective" morality in place. They thought they were doing the right thing. The polygamous men and women who practiced Mormonism thought they were doing the right thing. African parents who subject their daughters to genital mutilation think they are doing what is right. If morality is "objective, how is it all these people have different ideas about what that means ?
Real-life ethical dilemmas are messy and complex .. and there is no way a simple-minded "objective" morality can have anything to say or be of any value in guiding these real-life complex situations. There is never only one side whose interest needs evaluating or maximizing. What if the person involved has a totally different "cosmic model" (even an obviously flawed one) than everyone else involved ? Do they have the right to have their wishes honored ?
There is no actual thing as "natural law". 50 years ago, religious people were saying that same-sex couples were violating "natural law". Now we find out that every species on the planet has a small percentage who are oriented in an alternate way, including humans, and that the orientation is probably set by hormone "washes" in utero, and that choice is not possible. "Natural law" is nothing except what the culture one is raised in teaches its members to favor and dis-favor. Murder ? Nope. Soldiers can kill if they need to. Anthropology leads the way with regard to what morality is, and how it arose. Ethics teaches various theories of how morality may be applied, and there are MANY various ethical systems and theories. One of the most interesting I saw at Cal Tech was Carol Gilligan's "Duty to Care", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_care
Think of it like the existence of God. All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods. And then there are atheists who say there isn't one. All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature. Even if we are all wrong, that doesn't make the existence and nature of God subjective. There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
And if there is, it is inaccessible and we have to operate anyway.
(Both morality and the gods).
Atheists don't say "there isn't one" The entire question is dismissed as not meriting even a discussion.
Test
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12-24-2018, 03:49 PM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-24-2018, 03:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: (12-22-2018, 06:52 PM)jerryg Wrote: Think of it like the existence of God. All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods. And then there are atheists who say there isn't one. All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature. Even if we are all wrong, that doesn't make the existence and nature of God subjective. There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
And if there is, it is inaccessible and we have to operate anyway.
(Both morality and the gods).
Atheists don't say "there isn't one" The entire question is dismissed as not meriting even a discussion.
Not even meriting a discussion? I don't know about that.
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12-24-2018, 04:01 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-24-2018, 04:06 PM by Phaedrus.)
Is Morality Objective?
(12-22-2018, 06:52 PM)jerryg Wrote: Think of it like the existence of God. All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods. And then there are atheists who say there isn't one. All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature. Even if we are all wrong, that doesn't make the existence and nature of God subjective. There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
If there is a truth of god, it has yet to be discovered. Claiming "god" is subjective, as you've already stated. However, reason dictates that systematic methods of observation lead to a truth. Gravity, although it cannot be seen, shows itself as truth by evidential fact via objects falling from a height. God, although it cannot be seen, has not shown itself in any way.
God, from what I understand, tends to be one's personal delusion. Nothing more.
In a world where the imagination of man runs rampant, it is no wonder that some would find comfort in a fantasy. Fantasy, however is dangerous when an individual cannot properly discern it from reality. God is no more real than fairies, both having been invented by the imagination.
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12-25-2018, 06:12 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-25-2018, 06:13 AM by Kernel Sohcahtoa.)
Is Morality Objective?
(12-22-2018, 06:52 PM)jerryg Wrote: (12-22-2018, 04:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: There are all kinds of cultures that have radically different ideas of what is "good", or what actually promotes the good or maximizes "well being".
Should a 17 year-old immigrant girl be allowed to have an abortion if she wants one ? Is there agreement on that ? Is there an "objective" way to evaluate that ? Some cultures sacrificed their children to bring about a "good" effect with the god(s) they firmly believed were in charge of their world. Whose "well-being" should be maximized ? Should a 14 girl who is raped, be forced to carry the baby ? There are ALWAYS competing interests and claims that have to be considered. I often read the minutes of the hospital's Ethics Committee, and the cases are NEVER black and white or simple. If they weren't they would not be placed in front of the committee, or wasting their time. Saw one recently where a twenty year old, estranged from his parents, living with a friend, took LSD, and was severely injured and incapacitated. Who should be making decisions for him ? Is there an objective guide for that ? For most of the history of the ancient Near East, women were told whom they would marry, and men arranged the contracts. How did THAT happen, if there actually was some sort of "objective" morality in place. They thought they were doing the right thing. The polygamous men and women who practiced Mormonism thought they were doing the right thing. African parents who subject their daughters to genital mutilation think they are doing what is right. If morality is "objective, how is it all these people have different ideas about what that means ?
Real-life ethical dilemmas are messy and complex .. and there is no way a simple-minded "objective" morality can have anything to say or be of any value in guiding these real-life complex situations. There is never only one side whose interest needs evaluating or maximizing. What if the person involved has a totally different "cosmic model" (even an obviously flawed one) than everyone else involved ? Do they have the right to have their wishes honored ?
There is no actual thing as "natural law". 50 years ago, religious people were saying that same-sex couples were violating "natural law". Now we find out that every species on the planet has a small percentage who are oriented in an alternate way, including humans, and that the orientation is probably set by hormone "washes" in utero, and that choice is not possible. "Natural law" is nothing except what the culture one is raised in teaches its members to favor and dis-favor. Murder ? Nope. Soldiers can kill if they need to. Anthropology leads the way with regard to what morality is, and how it arose. Ethics teaches various theories of how morality may be applied, and there are MANY various ethical systems and theories. One of the most interesting I saw at Cal Tech was Carol Gilligan's "Duty to Care", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_care
Think of it like the existence of God. All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods. And then there are atheists who say there isn't one. (1) All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature. Even if we are all wrong, that doesn't make the existence and nature of God subjective. (2) There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
Hello, jerryg. Thanks for sharing your perspective on this matter. Out of curiosity, regarding (1), if everyone is wrong, why not look beyond our present thinking patterns (philosophies, god concepts, etc.) and explore new ways too interpret/understand reality? Regarding (2), if such a truth does exist, then why should it revolve around god concepts? Perhaps more intellectual creativity and vigor on the part of humanity is requisite in order to understand this "truth" (whatever that may be)? Thanks.
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12-25-2018, 03:21 PM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-25-2018, 06:12 AM)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote: (12-22-2018, 06:52 PM)jerryg Wrote: Think of it like the existence of God. All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods. And then there are atheists who say there isn't one. (1) All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature. Even if we are all wrong, that doesn't make the existence and nature of God subjective. (2) There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
Hello, jerryg. Thanks for sharing your perspective on this matter. Out of curiosity, regarding (1), if everyone is wrong, why not look beyond our present thinking patterns (philosophies, god concepts, etc.) and explore new ways too interpret/understand reality? Regarding (2), if such a truth does exist, then why should it revolve around god concepts? Perhaps more intellectual creativity and vigor on the part of humanity is requisite in order to understand this "truth" (whatever that may be)? Thanks.
The trick is if everyone is wrong, we'll probably never know it, at least not as humans on earth. But I'm all for thinking about it in any way you want. Can't hurt. And I only refer to God concepts in 2 because I was talking about God existing. So for that discussion, you're kind of handcuffed to god concepts. But I don't think confining a search to truth to just that is necessary. Evee is showing that, as he's talking objective morality as an atheist, which I think is interesting, even if I can't quite nail down the details.
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12-25-2018, 03:33 PM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-24-2018, 12:15 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: (12-22-2018, 04:25 AM)jerryg Wrote: Do you think it is possible, that independent of human thinking, humans objectively have 0 value?
Possible? Yes. But I don't think it's a sound possibility. After all, even without humans around ... animal (and alien) suffering still matters.
I guess I get hung up on 'still matters.' Because I think 'to who?' But you're saying, I think, that there doesn't need to be a who to to to.
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12-25-2018, 05:14 PM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-25-2018, 03:33 PM)jerryg Wrote: (12-24-2018, 12:15 AM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: (12-22-2018, 04:25 AM)jerryg Wrote: Do you think it is possible, that independent of human thinking, humans objectively have 0 value?
Possible? Yes. But I don't think it's a sound possibility. After all, even without humans around ... animal (and alien) suffering still matters.
I guess I get hung up on 'still matters.' Because I think 'to who?' But you're saying, I think, that there doesn't need to be a who to to to.
No, I'm not. I'm saying that the who doesn't have to be human. Suffering of all sentient beings matters to all sentient beings.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.
(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.
(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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12-25-2018, 07:45 PM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-22-2018, 06:52 PM)jerryg Wrote: Think of it like the existence of God.
As a lifelong atheist, I don't accept any tenet that claims that God or gods exist in the real world.
I'm actually ignostic, which means I seldom get involved with debates about supernatural entities.
Gods simply don't exist. End of story.
Quote:All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods.
Very true, but that doesn't make any of these gods more likely to exist or more likely to be the
"correct" one. In the 1st century, lots of people believed in unicorns, and in the 17th century lots
of people believed in leprechauns.
Quote:And then there are atheists who say there isn't one.
That's a very loose definition of atheism, and doesn't apply to me. To deny the existence of
something presupposes the possibility of its existence.
Quote:All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature.
To use your own loose terminology; God doesn't exist. There's no subjectivity or objectivity involved.
Quote:There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
I agree. Theists can only ever guess about their gods. At best. On the other hand, science involves no
guessing; we have replicable, empirical evidence for each and every scientific tenet. And even though
science is yet to specifically define—say—gravity, we have viable evidence proving that the phenomenon
so named exists. Theists are unable to prove that any physical phenomenon is caused by a purported
God, or gods.
—And here's a little exercise for you Jerry: Prove to me that leprechauns do not exist. I'm betting you can't.
I'm a creationist; I believe that man created God.
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12-25-2018, 10:38 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-25-2018, 10:39 PM by jerryg.)
Is Morality Objective?
(12-25-2018, 07:45 PM)SYZ Wrote: (12-22-2018, 06:52 PM)jerryg Wrote: Think of it like the existence of God.
As a lifelong atheist, I don't accept any tenet that claims that God or gods exist in the real world.
I'm actually ignostic, which means I seldom get involved with debates about supernatural entities.
Gods simply don't exist. End of story.
Quote:All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods.
Very true, but that doesn't make any of these gods more likely to exist or more likely to be the
"correct" one. In the 1st century, lots of people believed in unicorns, and in the 17th century lots
of people believed in leprechauns.
Quote:And then there are atheists who say there isn't one.
That's a very loose definition of atheism, and doesn't apply to me. To deny the existence of
something presupposes the possibility of its existence.
Quote:All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature.
To use your own loose terminology; God doesn't exist. There's no subjectivity or objectivity involved.
Quote:There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
I agree. Theists can only ever guess about their gods. At best. On the other hand, science involves no
guessing; we have replicable, empirical evidence for each and every scientific tenet. And even though
science is yet to specifically define—say—gravity, we have viable evidence proving that the phenomenon
so named exists. Theists are unable to prove that any physical phenomenon is caused by a purported
God, or gods.
—And here's a little exercise for you Jerry: Prove to me that leprechauns do not exist. I'm betting you can't.
I think the context of my post has been missed. The point is that there is an objective truth that has nothing to do with what people think. I'm saying the same thing may apply to morality. That there may be an objective truth, and if there is, claiming it's subjective because everybody has their own opinion on what it is may not be relevant.
And this is really just me thinking about what Evie was saying, not something I'm saying is true. Just pondering it.
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12-26-2018, 02:41 AM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-24-2018, 03:49 PM)jerryg Wrote: (12-24-2018, 03:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: (12-22-2018, 06:52 PM)jerryg Wrote: Think of it like the existence of God. All sorts of cultures have a different opinion on the nature of God or gods. And then there are atheists who say there isn't one. All these varying opinions don't change the fact that objectively, God either doesn't exist, or does exist and has some nature. Even if we are all wrong, that doesn't make the existence and nature of God subjective. There is a truth that is not dependent on our guesses.
And if there is, it is inaccessible and we have to operate anyway.
(Both morality and the gods).
Atheists don't say "there isn't one" The entire question is dismissed as not meriting even a discussion.
Not even meriting a discussion? I don't know about that.
I do ... I've been through the entire list of them, in Comparative Mythology.
If you can define one, maybe ... but you can't. None of them are special. They are all made up projections .... it's called anthropomorphism.
Test
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12-26-2018, 04:30 AM
Is Morality Objective?
(12-26-2018, 02:41 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: (12-24-2018, 03:49 PM)jerryg Wrote: (12-24-2018, 03:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: And if there is, it is inaccessible and we have to operate anyway.
(Both morality and the gods).
Atheists don't say "there isn't one" The entire question is dismissed as not meriting even a discussion.
Not even meriting a discussion? I don't know about that.
I do ... I've been through the entire list of them, in Comparative Mythology.
If you can define one, maybe ... but you can't. None of them are special. They are all made up projections .... it's called anthropomorphism.
We're not limited to the one's they've already come up with. We can make up our own. Just ponder where something else might even squeeze into things.
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10-10-2022, 02:45 PM
Is Morality Objective?
I think there is an objectively most moral alternative in most situations, but capacity limits of human understanding curbs access to it. Human well-being, sentient animal well-being and ecological well-being are the criteria to be measured. Over time we could be able to identify which model and method of ethical determination had the better results.
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10-10-2022, 08:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2022, 08:44 PM by Bucky Ball.)
Is Morality Objective?
Just about every single hospital and major medical center in the world has an ethics committee.
Every day, situations and cases arise, wherein it is unclear what is the most ethical way to proceed.
Even the committee votes, with non-unanimous results. The committees are thoughtful, committed professionals.
There is no objective morality, and no clear path to what is most ethical.
Each member of the committees have their own foundational ethical system, based on the various foundational ethical systems which they learned over their lifetimes.
There are many, (as anyone knows who has studied Ethics).
Test
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10-10-2022, 09:05 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2022, 09:08 PM by airportkid.)
Is Morality Objective?
(10-10-2022, 08:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: ... and no clear path to what is most ethical ...
Assuming there is some "most" ethical path is like assuming there is some "best" motor vehicle. The technical variations, but most important, the wide variations in purpose make determining a "best" motor vehicle a logical impossibility. Taking all relevant factors into account there remain multiple possibilities more or less equally viable.
Ethics is the same. There can never be the "one best" ethical path. Too many factors, often at cross purposes, occlude such a determination. Far too often ethical and moral calculations ignore what is perhaps the most basic consideration: whose priorities should be given preference. Jay wants blue, Sue wants red - an objective adjudication of that conflict is impossible. Either blue or red are equally "best".
Clearly some courses of action will appear more preferable than others. But doesn't mean there's a "best" one.
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10-10-2022, 09:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2022, 09:45 PM by rocinantexyz.)
Is Morality Objective?
Instead of arguing about objective morality; why don't those who believe it to be objective list some moral rules and how they verified each one was true (so I can check for myself)?
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10-10-2022, 10:21 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2022, 10:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
Is Morality Objective?
(10-10-2022, 09:05 PM)airportkid Wrote: (10-10-2022, 08:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: ... and no clear path to what is most ethical ...
Assuming there is some "most" ethical path is like assuming there is some "best" motor vehicle. The technical variations, but most important, the wide variations in purpose make determining a "best" motor vehicle a logical impossibility. Taking all relevant factors into account there remain multiple possibilities more or less equally viable.
Ethics is the same. There can never be the "one best" ethical path. Too many factors, often at cross purposes, occlude such a determination. Far too often ethical and moral calculations ignore what is perhaps the most basic consideration: whose priorities should be given preference. Jay wants blue, Sue wants red - an objective adjudication of that conflict is impossible. Either blue or red are equally "best".
Clearly some courses of action will appear more preferable than others. But doesn't mean there's a "best" one.
There may be a best option .. considering the family's expressed wishes, considering the wishes of the person involved, (who often has their very personal wishes) and the situation, which in no way resembles a "motor vehicle". There is no "range" of options when the patient and family say they want one thing done.
Test
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10-12-2022, 08:06 PM
Is Morality Objective?
(10-10-2022, 09:44 PM)rocinantexyz Wrote: Instead of arguing about objective morality; why don't those who believe it to be objective list some moral rules and how they verified each one was true (so I can check for myself)?
Every time some god buggerer mentions this alleged objective morality of theirs I find myself wondering if there is any evidence of any form of ugly human behavior which has not been enshrined in some religious bullshit or other. I don't waste a lot of time thinking about such worthless concepts but offhand, none occur to me.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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10-13-2022, 10:01 PM
Is Morality Objective?
No, I do not believe in objective morality and I'd argue that there's no such thing.
Some easier counters to the idea of their being objective morality, can be that we as a society in general do disagree over moral issues, for example abortion or same-sex marriage, euthanasia, etc.
Also we think of the Nazis as evil, but do you really think that the Nazis thought that they were evil? No, they thought they were good and their "enemies" were evil.
As Marilyn Manson sang in "Dogma" from "Portrait of An American Family", "Good is the thing that you favor, evil is your sour flavor".
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10-13-2022, 10:23 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2022, 10:24 PM by Kim.)
Is Morality Objective?
(10-13-2022, 10:01 PM)Twiggy Wrote: ----
---
Also we think of the Nazis as evil, but do you really think that the Nazis thought that they were evil? No, they thought they were good and their "enemies" were evil.
---
Mmmnah ... I'ma say quite a few nazis indeed knew very well they were doing many very evil things. They justified evil by saying to themselves, "It's for the greater good.".
People do the same thing in the name of their god. Nazis were never anything new. They were just more fashionably dressed.
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10-13-2022, 10:30 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-13-2022, 10:34 PM by Twiggy.)
Is Morality Objective?
(10-13-2022, 10:23 PM)Kim Wrote: (10-13-2022, 10:01 PM)Twiggy Wrote: ----
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Also we think of the Nazis as evil, but do you really think that the Nazis thought that they were evil? No, they thought they were good and their "enemies" were evil.
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Mmmnah ... I'ma say quite a few nazis indeed knew very well they were doing many very evil things. They justified evil by saying to themselves, "It's for the greater good.".
People do the same thing in the name of their god. Nazis were never anything new. They were just more fashionably dressed.
Okay, but then tell me, who decides what is evil then and why? We are all humans, homo sapiens, and flawed and biased.
One thing that Christians have right is that without god, morality is really just subjective value judgements, and well that is true and appears to be the case in the world we live in. I am not saying that god exists of course, I'm an atheist, but I just find it funny to claim morality is objective without any real authority to arbitrate that.
P.S: Keep in mind, the fact that objective morality clearly does not exist, can also be used against Christians in a debate/argument as well. Simply because if god exists then there is objective morality, but there clearly isn't actually objective morality.
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10-13-2022, 11:36 PM
Is Morality Objective?
Is morality objective? Well...is....is a stretch. There's no good explanation for why it couldn't be, though, and many criticisms of the respective (allegedly unobjective) moral systems round down to criticisms of objectivism as though it -should be-. The thing to remember, is that the answer to that question has nothing whatsoever to do with gods and literally -cannot- have anything to do with gods...no matter what anyone was told or believed growing up.
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10-14-2022, 12:06 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-14-2022, 12:08 AM by Gawdzilla Sama.)
Is Morality Objective?
I think it was Jane Goodall who noted that she had observed apes acting in moral and ethical manners in their troop and faced expulsion if they failed to follow their society's rules.
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10-14-2022, 12:16 AM
Is Morality Objective?
Morality is never objective. Most often it is objectionable, its chiefest attribute.
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