The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia

[Minimalist]

Unchecked immigration leads to all sorts of problems......

[Fireball]

If all The Muslims did was fuck, they'd still be doing australia a solid.  Lazy ass whites, get off your asses and impregnate some women?

  That's what I was thinking- get in there and breed. I did my part and produced 3 atheists. 

[pattylt]

If Muslim women are having 2.9 children vs the average of 2.1 or even Australia's 1.7, it’s going to take a long time for that replacement strategy to be meaningful.  It also assumes future generations of Muslims continue with higher birth rates after living in a first world with available contraception.

It also assumes that the liberties of a secular democracy are less-appealing to kids than parents shouting at you for wearing makeup or skateboarding. You're of the hippie generation, Patty -- how did you respond to the restrictions of the Fifties here?

Kids aren't very different the world over.

The more they squeezed, the more we slipped through their fingers!

[SYZ]

To your first statement is just meh...

I don't even know what that weasel comment means.

What counter data do I need to a baseless claim? A claim comes off as "Just an opinion" in it's own right

So you agree that you have no reason and/or viable
evidence in order to justify claiming my comment is
baseless?

The sectarian conflicts between religious groups
in the Middle East are currently being reflected as
tensions within the Australian community, and in
our schools—from Sunni v. Shia v. Sufi Muslims.

I have first-hand eyewitness proof of this. You have nothing.

[SaxonX]

I don't even know what that weasel comment means.

Nowhere did I engage in weasel wording. You made stated an opinion I called it meh that's pretty straightforward. 

So you agree that you have no reason and/or viable
evidence in order to justify claiming my comment is
baseless?

No I said what evidence do I need to counter a baseless claim. You made that claim and didn't back it up with anything other then "trust me bro I live here" What can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I have first-hand eyewitness proof of this. You have nothing.

You have "trust me bro "that doesn't require anything to counter it. It's the equivalent of someone claiming they saw a ghost and insisting that because they say they saw it, it's so. 

[SYZ]

No I said what evidence do I need to counter a baseless claim. You made that claim and didn't back it up with anything other then "trust me bro I live here" What can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence...

Muslim community leaders in Australia say sectarian tensions
are soaring, as radicalized Sunni youth, inspired by ISIS, seek
to import the religious conflicts wracking the Middle East.

Sectarian tensions were a new phenomenon for Australia’s
Muslim community, said Jamal Rifi, a Sydney-based GP and
Sunni community leader.

"The tensions are very high and will continue to be high",
said Jamal Daoud, a Shia community leader in Sydney, where a
47-year old Shia leader was shot in the shoulder.   The attack
was only one incident in a string of attacks and threats against
Shia Muslims by Sunni extremists in Australia.

Daoud did not believe things would improve soon.  "It is a very
tough time, and we expect it to become more tough", he said.

A mural of a Muslim woman in Sydney, where a Shia
leader was shot by suspected Sunni extremists.


  —Excerpted from CNN/AFP/Getty, 6 November 2014.

[SaxonX]

Congrats on showing me  nothing. Some isolated incidents reported almost a decade ago. Consider my skepticism vindicated.

[pattylt]

No I said what evidence do I need to counter a baseless claim. You made that claim and didn't back it up with anything other then "trust me bro I live here" What can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence...

Muslim community leaders in Australia say sectarian tensions
are soaring, as radicalized Sunni youth, inspired by ISIS, seek
to import the religious conflicts wracking the Middle East.

Sectarian tensions were a new phenomenon for Australia’s
Muslim community, said Jamal Rifi, a Sydney-based GP and
Sunni community leader.

"The tensions are very high and will continue to be high",
said Jamal Daoud, a Shia community leader in Sydney, where a
47-year old Shia leader was shot in the shoulder.   The attack
was only one incident in a string of attacks and threats against
Shia Muslims by Sunni extremists in Australia.

Daoud did not believe things would improve soon.  "It is a very
tough time, and we expect it to become more tough", he said.

A mural of a Muslim woman in Sydney, where a Shia
leader was shot by suspected Sunni extremists.


  —Excerpted from CNN/AFP/Getty, 6 November 2014.

Is the Australian government doing anything to address the issues?  How about the various Muslim communities which would be even better?  Are any Muslims working with the government to address all the problems?  How should Muslims and others address the ISISproblems as that’s an issue in more than just Australia?  Are these youths unemployed or not in school?

I can understand a perceived problem but not striving to address them is problematic in its own right.

[SaxonX]

Also these are instances from a freaking decade ago

[SYZ]

Also these are instances from a freaking decade ago

My report also said that Muslim community leaders said
at that time that the tensions "will continue to be high"
and that "we expect it to become more tough".

Both Shia and Sunni communities have since then approached
the federal government each from their own perspective, but
our governments are not, and have never been competent in
dealing with sectarian violence in this country.

I'm not even sure why you make an issue of this beginning
a decade ago—when you in turn have failed to provide any
contrary evidence for your claim that my report is bogus.

[SaxonX]

Yup your report said a decade ago there was some tensions and a few isolated incidents and that some people had some opinions . What counter evidence would I possibly need to counter that as you still failed your original claim and my doubt is still vindicated ?

[SYZ]

...Is the Australian government doing anything to address the issues?  How about the various Muslim communities which would be even better?  Are any Muslims working with the government to address all the problems?  How should Muslims and others address the ISIS problems as that’s an issue in more than just Australia?  Are these youths unemployed or not in school?

I can understand a perceived problem but not striving to address them is problematic in its own right.

The Australian governments of both colours have failed for
decades to solve the ongoing issues of sectarian violence
in Australia.  We now have that violence becoming even more
common, with Muslims v. Christians v. Jews with each versus
the wider—religiously indifferent—Australian community.

So yes;  our governments have tried to ignore the problem
for decades since we abandoned the Immigration Restriction
Act in 1966.  And even that Act didn't acknowledge religion as
any sort of immigration determinate.

On top of all that, Australia is now acknowledged as a nominally
secular country—with the majority "religion" being the unaffiliated.

[SYZ]

Yup your report said a decade ago there was some tensions and a few isolated incidents and that some people had some opinions . What counter evidence would I possibly need to counter that as you still failed your original claim and my doubt is still vindicated ?

Okay mate...

I was wrong, and I lied, and I don't know what I'm
talking about despite being at ground zero.  I can
only apologise, and bow to your obviously better
understanding of the religiopolitical situation here.

So... you win.  Feel better now?    

[SaxonX]

Once again buddy saying "see I'm from Australia  so trust me bro  here's an article that doesn't really support my point " is epistemically weak . It's funny to me we get on religious and supernaturalists cases  when they make claims on personal experience but a non religious claim is held to the same level skepticism and all of a sudden it's unreasonable

[pattylt]

I’m not sure I would dismiss @SYZ whether he’s proved a point or not. The fact is that we have plenty of evidence throughout the world of religious conflicts and none of them seem to have been completely resolved yet. Religions don’t get along with each other yet everyone try’s to be accommodating. No one wants to see Australia become another Middle Eastern type country continually at war with each other within that country not does anyone want to see the rise of terrorism…and I’m not singling out Islam as the only possible terrorists. I don’t put it past any religion to resort to terrorism.

The questions are…what can countries do to minimize this? I’d vote for an immigration requirement to exclude anyone that would place their religion above their country of choice…but that’s not going to happen until atheism actually rules a country and I certainly don’t want a Russia or China type country to achieve it either. How does a country allow immigration for those that want to enter but also make clear that sectarian violence won’t be accepted or tolerated?

[SYZ]

I’m not sure I would dismiss @SYZ whether he’s proved a point or not.  The fact is that we have plenty of evidence throughout the world of religious conflicts and none of them seem to have been completely resolved yet.   Religions don’t get along with each other yet everyone try’s to be accommodating.  No one wants to see Australia become another Middle Eastern type country continually at war with each other within that country not does anyone want to see the rise of terrorism…and I’m not singling out Islam as the only possible terrorists.  I don’t put it past any religion to resort to terrorism.

The questions are…what can countries do to minimize this?  I’d vote for an immigration requirement to exclude anyone that would place their religion above their country of choice…but that’s not going to happen until atheism actually rules a country and I certainly don’t want a Russia or China type country to achieve it either.  How does a country allow immigration for those that want to enter but also make clear that sectarian violence won’t be accepted or tolerated?

I'm just ignoring Saxon now as it's obvious he has little
to no knowledge of what's been happening here as far
as increasing religious turmoil goes—particularly involving
Jewish and Muslim faiths.  It's got worse over the last
couple of decades coincident with the sudden surge of
Middle Eastern and Southern Asian migrants.

There are fucking mosques popping up around here like
mushrooms after a spring rain!

[Thumpalumpacus]

I’m not sure I would dismiss @SYZ whether he’s proved a point or not.  The fact is that we have plenty of evidence throughout the world of religious conflicts and none of them seem to have been completely resolved yet.   Religions don’t get along with each other yet everyone try’s to be accommodating.  No one wants to see Australia become another Middle Eastern type country continually at war with each other within that country not does anyone want to see the rise of terrorism…and I’m not singling out Islam as the only possible terrorists.  I don’t put it past any religion to resort to terrorism.

The questions are…what can countries do to minimize this?  I’d vote for an immigration requirement to exclude anyone that would place their religion above their country of choice…but that’s not going to happen until atheism actually rules a country and I certainly don’t want a Russia or China type country to achieve it either.  How does a country allow immigration for those that want to enter but also make clear that sectarian violence won’t be accepted or tolerated?

I've got a good idea: prosecute violence no matter why it is perpetrated. "Hey, great, welcome to America. We've got a couple of rules here. One of those is you really can't kill people, no matter what. Sure, I know your holy book says so, but if you do that here, we will throw you in jail or simply stick a needle in your arm."

Australia is not in the middle of becoming Syria. That's nonsense on a par with Mexicans sending all their rapists here.

All you should have to do is inform folks that the law is the law and it will be enforced no matter what your religion dictates. If immigrants of whatever religion come in and by study and good living become citizens, they should be able to form political parties even if their religion offends you -- which was in fact the complaint @SYZ made in refreshing this shitty little thread a couple of pages back.

I wouldn't exclude folks. I'd let them in if they abided our laws, and jail them if they don't. They can decide in the privacy of their mirrors whether they absolutely must be cuntmuffins. And if they are, off to Supermax Colorado they go.

[SaxonX]

I'm just ignoring Saxon now as it's obvious he has little
to no knowledge of what's been happening here as far
as increasing religious turmoil goes—particularly involving
Jewish and Muslim faiths.  It's got worse over the last
couple of decades coincident with the sudden surge of
Middle Eastern and Southern Asian migrants.

There are fucking mosques popping up around here like
mushrooms after a spring rain

Yup lot's of "trust me bro I'm from here" your free to ignore me it doesn't change anything nor will it stop me from commenting

[pattylt]

I don’t think Australia is inching toward Syria but possibly inching towards Lebanon. I have an online friend living there…he’s now 22. He was a child when their civil war occurred between all the various religious warlords and came to the stupidest solution possible. All it did was continue the religious strife, even though it brought them years of peace. They have Maronite Christian’s, Shia and Sunni Muslims and Druze with a smattering of some others. And it all came crashing down several years ago when their financial structure collapsed…due to bribery and grifting being rampant…something Australia isn’t experiencing so, while Australia will likely avoid any financial collapse, religious strife may continue to rear its head.

And I completely agree…the law needs to be enforced, fairly and consistently. It sounds like Australia is trying to be accommodating rather than insisting newcomers adapt to Australian life. Accommodation sounds good but is it just delaying adapting or is it causing lines that some can cross and others can’t? I think providing food for Muslims isn’t any different than providing kosher foods or fish on Fridays.

Is Australia allowing sharia laws to be tolerated? Thats too far for my comfort zone…just as Jews demanding no one drive on “their” community streets is. That’s trying to change current laws into something more discriminating.

I guess I’d need to understand exactly what the tensions are producing. School fights? Street attacks? Those should be immediately addressed by law enforcement.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don’t think Australia is inching toward Syria but possibly inching towards Lebanon.  I have an online friend living there…he’s now 22.  He was a child when their civil war occurred between all the various religious warlords and came to the stupidest solution possible.  All it did was continue the religious strife, even though it brought them years of peace.  They have Maronite Christian’s, Shia and Sunni Muslims and Druze with a smattering of some others.  And it all came crashing down several years ago when their financial structure collapsed…due to bribery and grifting being rampant…something Australia isn’t experiencing so, while Australia will likely avoid any financial collapse, religious strife may continue to rear its head.

I flew through Beirut on my way to Teheran in 1974, shortly before their civil war broke out. I was eight years old. Our 707 was circled by armed militiamen on the apron, and boarded by a couple of 'em carrying AK-47s, who walked the length of the plane looking for I don't know what.

I don't think Australia's inching towards that, either.

[Rhythmcs]

The idea, however implied, that australias immigrants will ever best australias "natives" in the terrorism game is laughable. Just as it is here...despite our very different policies and outcomes on immigrant assimilation.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The idea, however implied, that australias immigrants will ever best australias "natives" in the terrorism game is laughable.  Just as it is here...despite our very different policies and outcomes on immigrant assimilation.

Aussies have always been sonsabitches. Rommel rated them #2 behind the Kiwis, the Turks feared them at Gallipoli, and the Japanese preferred retreating over a 14,000' mountain range to fighting these crazy fucking Pommies for Port Moresby.

Now all the sudden they're afraid of some folks in robes speaking a different language?

[SYZ]

From yesterday's ABC Australia news...

Swinburne University in Melbourne has decided to close
its Hawthorn campus prayer room on Fridays—the Muslim
holy day when congregational prayers are held—forcing
dozens of Muslim students to pray elsewhere, and has
sparked outrage among almost 400 members of the
Swinburne Islamic Society.

A spokesperson for the university said the breaches
included some members of the Swinburne Islamic
Society refusing to allow the university-appointed
Muslim chaplain to lead prayers, as well as "encouraging
attendance from large numbers of people not associated
with the university".

President of the Swinburne Islamic Society Tabish Rather
said the chaplain's presence on 11 October was "unnecessary"
and upset the students who wanted one of their own to
lead the prayer.

He also said the time restrictions on the Multi Faith Centre
from 5AM to 11PM meant many students had nowhere to
do early morning prayers during Ramadan, as the nearest
mosque was located 13 kilometres from campus.

Muslim student Fatima said, "It's a chill safe space, especially
for us as hijabi women because it's that one place where you
feel like your modesty is being guarded".

—These sorts of divisive activities are typical of the Australian
   Muslim "community", who are never satisfied with the societal
   conditions they encounter in a largely secular population.  And
   they expect—no, demand of us—that we put up with every absurd
   element that's part of their obnoxious, anti-social religion.

[pattylt]

From yesterday's ABC Australia news...

Swinburne University in Melbourne has decided to close
its Hawthorn campus prayer room on Fridays—the Muslim
holy day when congregational prayers are held—forcing
dozens of Muslim students to pray elsewhere, and has
sparked outrage among almost 400 members of the
Swinburne Islamic Society.

A spokesperson for the university said the breaches
included some members of the Swinburne Islamic
Society refusing to allow the university-appointed
Muslim chaplain to lead prayers, as well as "encouraging
attendance from large numbers of people not associated
with the university".

President of the Swinburne Islamic Society Tabish Rather
said the chaplain's presence on 11 October was "unnecessary"
and upset the students who wanted one of their own to
lead the prayer.

He also said the time restrictions on the Multi Faith Centre
from 5AM to 11PM meant many students had nowhere to
do early morning prayers during Ramadan, as the nearest
mosque was located 13 kilometres from campus.

Muslim student Fatima said, "It's a chill safe space, especially
for us as hijabi women because it's that one place where you
feel like your modesty is being guarded".

—These sorts of divisive activities are typical of the Australian
   Muslim "community", who are never satisfied with the societal
   conditions they encounter in a largely secular population.  And
   they expect—no, demand of us—that we put up with every absurd
   element that's part of their obnoxious, anti-social religion.

Do you know if any attempt was made to compromise?  It can stay open but it will be lead by the University Muslim chaplain or else we close it entirely?  It’s for Uni students only or it will be closed?

Seems kind of ill thought out by the students if these accommodations were met to keep it open.

[Paleophyte]

From yesterday's ABC Australia news...

Swinburne University in Melbourne has decided to close
its Hawthorn campus prayer room on Fridays—the Muslim
holy day when congregational prayers are held—forcing
dozens of Muslim students to pray elsewhere, and has
sparked outrage among almost 400 members of the
Swinburne Islamic Society.

A spokesperson for the university said the breaches
included some members of the Swinburne Islamic
Society refusing to allow the university-appointed
Muslim chaplain to lead prayers, as well as "encouraging
attendance from large numbers of people not associated
with the university".

President of the Swinburne Islamic Society Tabish Rather
said the chaplain's presence on 11 October was "unnecessary"
and upset the students who wanted one of their own to
lead the prayer.

He also said the time restrictions on the Multi Faith Centre
from 5AM to 11PM meant many students had nowhere to
do early morning prayers during Ramadan, as the nearest
mosque was located 13 kilometres from campus.

Muslim student Fatima said, "It's a chill safe space, especially
for us as hijabi women because it's that one place where you
feel like your modesty is being guarded".

—These sorts of divisive activities are typical of the Australian
   Muslim "community", who are never satisfied with the societal
   conditions they encounter in a largely secular population.  And
   they expect—no, demand of us—that we put up with every absurd
   element that's part of their obnoxious, anti-social religion.

Sounds like the university administration were being tools. You don't dictate to faith groups who will lead their prayers and the extra attendance is only an issue if they're being disruptive. Neither disruption, violence, or radicalization is mentioned and it seems very unlikely that it would have been left out had it been an issue. Kindly correct me if I'm wrong. All this does is marginalize the communities involved and hinders their integration.