The Muslims Won't Like This!

[Minimalist]

A short essay on the origins of the koran.

(10) Islamic Origins: Anti-Theopaschism and Trisagion in the Near East in the early 600s | Peter von Sivers - Academia.edu

The tentative conclusion in this essay would then be that the Qur’ān originated not merely in a late Antique polemical context but furthermore adopted a carefully redacted version of the passion of Jesus in opposition to Monophysitic and Chalcedonian Christianity. It emerged in an era when Christology was embroiled in implacable polemics, anti-theopaschism was rampant in Jerusalem, and the legitimacy of theopaschite Chalcedonianism was compromised by the eschatological Perso-Roman war.

Translation - Islam emerged from often violent battles between various xtian heresies and the official doctrine of the Byzantine empire against the backdrop of the near constant warfare between Byzantine and Persian forces in the 6th century.  Scholars are investigating this period even if the muslims lose their fucking minds whenever their bullshit is questioned!

[abaris]

I don't find that very surprising. Christianity is obviously a jewish spinoff and Islam a christian spinoff. The Arabic peninsula, the birthplace of Islam, was still largely pagan, far as I know.

[Minimalist]

Yes....remember the passage in the Doctrina Jacobi, written before 640

"When the candidatus was killed by the Saracens, I was at Caesarea and I set off by boat to Sykamina. People were saying “the candidatus has been killed,” and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come. "


The reference to the death of the candidatus (Sergius) at the Battle of Dathin in February, 634 gives a terminus a quo, (the earliest possible date) for the Doctrina.  It had to have been written after Dathin in 634.   Since the whole point of the Doctrina Jacobi was an anti-jewish diatribe after Emperor Heraclitus had ordered the forcible conversion of jews to xtianity when he recaptured the city from the Persians c 630 we can reasonably assign a terminus a quem (the latest possible date) for it to the Arab conquest of 636-7.
After that, no one gave a shit about the jews.

But the big thing about the Doctrina Jacobi is that it is not about the invading Arab armies...it was about the jews.  The reference to the prophet among the Saracens was just a throwaway line indicating what people at the time thought was going on.

BTW, in muslim orthodoxy, Mohammed had been dead for two years prior to the Battle of Dathin so something does not add up.  And the PBUH crowd tends to lose their shit over any suggestion that their bullshit is just bullshit.

[Huggy Bear]

I don't find that very surprising. Christianity is obviously a jewish spinoff and Islam a christian spinoff. The Arabic peninsula, the birthplace of Islam, was still largely pagan, far as I know.

I would say Judaism is a spinoff of Christianity and Islam evolved out of Judaism.

Obviously when I say that Judaism is a spinoff of Christianity I'm being a little hyperbolic, but the concept of the Messiah was established pre-Judiasm, the book of Job is the oldest book in the bible and in it, Job states "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:". Job wasn't Jewish...

Even in Egypt the Zodiac which begins at Virgo (virgin birth) and ends at Leo (lion of Judah)



The Spinx being a combination of the two.


Judaism didn't exist until after Moses established the law, because that's what it was based on, and the law (according to scripture) was always mean to be temporary or it would have been established from the beginning.

Islam evolved from Judiasm when a number of Hebrews were taken captive and brought into Persia. Daniel (a Jew) was eventually made chief of the Magi and they studied his religion hence how they knew to look for the birth of the Messiah and made the journey to visit Jesus as what everyone knows as the 'wisemen'. They were the precursors to Muslims.

[Minimalist]

Well, Hugs, I don't put much credence in anything that the religitards write about themselves...they tend to lie a lot.

But this touches on many of the points you mentioned.

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-lost-h...iq=9352376

"Jenkins is one of America's top religious scholars." -- Forbes magazine The Lost History of Christianity by Philip Jenkins offers a revolutionary view of the history of the Christian church. Subtitled "The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died," it explores the extinction of the earliest, most influential Christian churches of China, India, and the Middle East, which held the closest historical links to Jesus and were the dominant expression of Christianity throughout its first millennium. The remarkable true story of the demise of the institution that shaped both Asia and Christianity as we know them today, The Lost History of Christianity is a controversial and important work of religious scholarship that sounds a warning that must be heeded.

The emergence of islam came at a time of tremendous political and military upheaval in the region.  One cannot pretend that none of that stuff happened and focus on some dozing carpet merchant in a cave.

[rocinantexyz]

Judaism didn't exist until after Moses established the law...

Moses didn't exist (is a mythological character), imo.

[pattylt]

I had a discussion with a rather liberal rabbi years ago about Moses and the whole exodus story. He said that there were at most, maybe, a couple thousand Hebrews that left Egypt. They most likely had a leader and whomever he was, we call him Moses.

There certainly is no evidence…none…that multiple thousands tracked across the desert for 40 years. There was no wiping out the Canaanites since they still live there though, we now call them Lebanese and Syrians. All those stories are foundation tales, meant to unite various people. They are myths.

[Minimalist]

"Moses" from the Egyptian root word "mss" means "born to" and is almost always seen as part of a theophoric such as Ramesses, (born to Ra), Thutmoses (born to Toth) Ahmose (born to Ah) etc.  The pharaonic names with the vowels are the result of Greek translations.

So the word "Moses" without a divine father figure would almost literally mean "son of nobody."


Not exactly what the Jews would be trotting out as someone with a great lineage.


We do have record of Ahmose I displacing the Hyksos dynasty c 1550 BCE and starting The New Kingdom.  Ahmose went on to overrun most of Canaan - a fact of which the bible seems to be unaware and Egypt ruled until c 1150 BCE.

Meet Ahmose I

[epronovost]

So the word "Moses" without a divine father figure would almost literally mean "son of nobody."

Wouldn't it just mean "son"? 

Plus there is also the idea that attributing the name Moses to an Egyptian root name due to their similarity in spelling and pronunciation might be misplaced in the first place. There are plenty of words in various language that share similar spelling or similar pronunciation that have absolutely nothing in common or in relation. For example, according to the Torah, Moses' name comes the Hebrew verb to "pull out of the water" since legend has it, Moses was literally pulled out of the water of the Nile where he had been abandoned.

[Minimalist]

No.  "Born to" implies someone.

There was another word for birth (mswt - fill in whatever vowels you like) which meant, according to one source, "to come forth" (from the womb?) 


You raise an interesting idea, Epy.  I wonder how accurate our translation of ancient Egyptian is, seeing as how it was based on the deciphering of a Ptolemaic stele from the 3d century BCE.  Egyptian culture covers a seriously long period of time and languages change over time.  2,500 years separates the Old Kingdom from Ptolemy I.

Consider how English has developed in this performance reading from Old to Middle English - basically ending around a mere 600 years ago.

[pattylt]

No.  "Born to" implies someone.

There was another word for birth (mswt - fill in whatever vowels you like) which meant, according to one source, "to come forth" (from the womb?) 


You raise an interesting idea, Epy.  I wonder how accurate our translation of ancient Egyptian is, seeing as how it was based on the deciphering of a Ptolemaic stele from the 3d century BCE.  Egyptian culture covers a seriously long period of time and languages change over time.  2,500 years separates the Old Kingdom from Ptolemy I.

Consider how English has developed in this performance reading from Old to Middle English - basically ending around a mere 600 years ago.

I love our bastard language!  I do wish we had been able to keep the genders so it would be even harder to learn but, alas, the damn Vikings and French had to arrive and cause it to simplify.

Plus, in the video, can you hear the wonderful alliterations!  Love it!

[Minimalist]

Think how much dumber the Trumptards would sound if they had an even harder language?

[pattylt]

Think how much dumber the Trumptards would sound if they had an even harder language?

Imagine them having to pronounce the chud sound (like Hebrew has) which old English had!  I’m giggling just thinking about it!  Loogies would fly! 

[Cavebear]

I don't find that very surprising. Christianity is obviously a jewish spinoff and Islam a christian spinoff. The Arabic peninsula, the birthplace of Islam, was still largely pagan, far as I know.

I would say Judaism is a spinoff of Christianity and Islam evolved out of Judaism.

Obviously when I say that Judaism is a spinoff of Christianity I'm being a little hyperbolic, but the concept of the Messiah was established pre-Judiasm, the book of Job is the oldest book in the bible and in it, Job states "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:". Job wasn't Jewish...

Even in Egypt the Zodiac which begins at Virgo (virgin birth) and ends at Leo (lion of Judah)



The Spinx being a combination of the two.


Judaism didn't exist until after Moses established the law, because that's what it was based on, and the law (according to scripture) was always mean to be temporary or it would have been established from the beginning.

Islam evolved from Judiasm when a number of Hebrews were taken captive and brought into Persia. Daniel (a Jew) was eventually made chief of the Magi and they studied his religion hence how they knew to look for the birth of the Messiah and made the journey to visit Jesus as what everyone knows as the 'wisemen'. They were the precursors to Muslims.

Surely you jest. Judaism predates Christianity by some 1,000 years or so. And Islam is later ther than Christianity because the accept Jesus as a prophet but just not the true messiah.

I hesitate to call someone "dumb as a rock", but you are sure coming close. I would put you on "ignore", but sometimes it is useful to know what truly stupid people think...

[Cavebear]

No.  "Born to" implies someone.

There was another word for birth (mswt - fill in whatever vowels you like) which meant, according to one source, "to come forth" (from the womb?) 


You raise an interesting idea, Epy.  I wonder how accurate our translation of ancient Egyptian is, seeing as how it was based on the deciphering of a Ptolemaic stele from the 3d century BCE.  Egyptian culture covers a seriously long period of time and languages change over time.  2,500 years separates the Old Kingdom from Ptolemy I.

Consider how English has developed in this performance reading from Old to Middle English - basically ending around a mere 600 years ago.

I love our bastard language!  I do wish we had been able to keep the genders so it would be even harder to learn but, alas, the damn Vikings and French had to arrive and cause it to simplify.

Plus, in the video, can you hear the wonderful alliterations!  Love it!

English is fascinating.  A blend of many languages and grammar, it offers great expression.  You have to really work to write poems in it, there are coupled words (like assault and battery) to deal with, and the phonetics are amazing.  I'm not demeaning other languages, but where else would you get the "perchance to dream" from Hamlet or Henry V's St Crispin's Day.