NDEs

[Dom]

I imagine that the brain knows it may be dying and it frantically searches for references to death.
If religious, it may come up with visions of heaven or whatever was preached.
If non-religious, it may bring up dead people it registered, hence the "my life passed in front of my eyes" experience.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Dānu]

I imagine that the brain knows it may be dying and it frantically searches for references to death.
If religious, it may come up with visions of heaven or whatever was preached.
If non-religious, it may bring up dead people it registered, hence the "my life passed in front of my eyes" experience.

Makes perfect sense to me.

That's not a bad suggestion. One theory of dreams is that random firings in the brain stem during its dormancy during sleep stimulate the mid brain and forebrain, creating fantastic interpretation of meaningless signals. NDEs could be something similar.

[Dom]

I imagine that the brain knows it may be dying and it frantically searches for references to death.
If religious, it may come up with visions of heaven or whatever was preached.
If non-religious, it may bring up dead people it registered, hence the "my life passed in front of my eyes" experience.

Makes perfect sense to me.

That's not a bad suggestion.  One theory of dreams is that random firings in the brain stem during its dormancy during sleep stimulate the mid brain and forebrain, creating fantastic interpretation of meaningless signals.  NDEs could be something similar.

Sometimes, though, dreams have purpose. For example, after losing an important part of my life (to death or whatever), I found that my dreams circle around that event and matter for some time, daily at first, and then less and less frequently. I think this is my brain digesting what happened, and doing so while I am sleeping and not using it real time.  

Although I think that at other times, and also at death, there are likely the misfirings you mentioned.

I think our brains are complicated and we have a long way to go before we fully understand how we function and malfunction. Especially since our brains can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Dānu]

That's not a bad suggestion.  One theory of dreams is that random firings in the brain stem during its dormancy during sleep stimulate the mid brain and forebrain, creating fantastic interpretation of meaningless signals.  NDEs could be something similar.

Sometimes, though, dreams have purpose. For example, after losing an important part of my life (to death or whatever), I found that my dreams circle around that event and matter for some time, daily at first, and then less and less frequently. I think this is my brain digesting what happened, and doing so while I am sleeping and not using it real time.  

Although I think that at other times, and also at death, there are likely the misfirings you mentioned.

I think our brains are complicated and we have a long way to go before we fully understand how we function and malfunction. Especially since our brains can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Yes, dreams during REM appear to be the random type, but we also have dreams outside of REM which appear to function as a form of skill rehearsal through visualization.

[Cavebear]

I imagine that the brain knows it may be dying and it frantically searches for references to death.
If religious, it may come up with visions of heaven or whatever was preached.
If non-religious, it may bring up dead people it registered, hence the "my life passed in front of my eyes" experience.

Makes perfect sense to me.

That's not a bad suggestion.  One theory of dreams is that random firings in the brain stem during its dormancy during sleep stimulate the mid brain and forebrain, creating fantastic interpretation of meaningless signals.  NDEs could be something similar.

"fantastic interpretation of meaningless signals" sounds about right.

[Cavebear]

That's not a bad suggestion.  One theory of dreams is that random firings in the brain stem during its dormancy during sleep stimulate the mid brain and forebrain, creating fantastic interpretation of meaningless signals.  NDEs could be something similar.

Sometimes, though, dreams have purpose. For example, after losing an important part of my life (to death or whatever), I found that my dreams circle around that event and matter for some time, daily at first, and then less and less frequently. I think this is my brain digesting what happened, and doing so while I am sleeping and not using it real time.  

Although I think that at other times, and also at death, there are likely the misfirings you mentioned.

I think our brains are complicated and we have a long way to go before we fully understand how we function and malfunction. Especially since our brains can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I agree that dreams have a purpose (well, we probably wouldn't have them otherwise). As most people, I dream often. But I wake up frequently and most people don't, so I may be more aware of the content. My dreams seem to be sorting out events of the day or concerns of the day. Maybe it is my brain deciding where to put memories; maybe it is my brain deciding what to forget or remember. Even possibly, it is my brain trying to discard unimportant details of my younger life. It sure is doing something and I expect there is some value to it.

[Minimalist]

My dog dreams.  She'll be laying there, sound asleep, and her feet start moving and she gives out these strange little woofs.  I guess she is chasing rabbits..... or the Amazon delivery guy.

[Alan V]

One theory of dreams is that random firings in the brain stem during its dormancy during sleep stimulate the mid brain and forebrain, creating fantastic interpretation of meaningless signals.

That is a quick summary of the earliest version of Dr. Hobson's activation synthesis theory of dreaming, which in its time was a big improvement over the dominant Freudian theory of dreaming.  However, with the improvements of brain imagining techniques in recent years, as well as lesion studies of the brain and the accumulation of statistical dream content studies, the neurocognitive theory of dreaming incorporates, corrects, and replaces activation synthesis and Hobson's later AIM model of conscious states to a fair extent.  To boil it down, the neurocognitive theory states that something called the default network of the brain is activated while other major networks are largely deactivated during dreaming.  We use the default network in waking when we imagine scenarios and let our minds wander.  The specific enhancements and deficits of the brain created by this combination produces dreaming more or less automatically, drawing on all sorts of odd information we have gathered from waking.  

I think it is significant that we lose our supply of serotonin when we are dreaming, which is the neurotransmitter which allows us to store new memories.  Without it, we suffer from state-specific amnesia and can only remember our dreams after we wake up and regain our waking memory abilities.  In combination with the loss of our self-reflective awareness caused by the deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, it is no wonder, then, that we believe our dreams are really happening as we dream them, since we only have access to certain limited memories, stored in waking, to draw from to make sense of what is happening to us.  We can't learn how the rules are different in dreaming than waking, and subsequently ignore all sorts of unusual happenings and confabulations.

Most of what we dream about are variations of our waking concerns and conceptions.  So for instance, if we are having problems in our relationships, we tend to dream about them in exaggerated ways.  In that sense, our dreams are not so much about what happens to us on a day-to-day basis as similar to what we think and daydream about in waking.

The neurocognitive theory of dreaming considers dreaming epiphenomenal, an unavoidable byproduct of the physiological processes running during sleep, which have their own useful functions.  Basically, none of the speculated functions of dreaming itself have ever been satisfactorily proven so far, though opinions vary.

[Cavebear]

One theory of dreams is that random firings in the brain stem during its dormancy during sleep stimulate the mid brain and forebrain, creating fantastic interpretation of meaningless signals.

That is a quick summary of the earliest version of Dr. Hobson's activation synthesis theory of dreaming, which in its time was a big improvement over the dominant Freudian theory of dreaming.  However, with the improvements of brain imagining techniques in recent years, as well as lesion studies of the brain and the accumulation of statistical dream content studies, the neurocognitive theory of dreaming incorporates, corrects, and replaces activation synthesis and Hobson's later AIM model of conscious states to a fair extent.  To boil it down, the neurocognitive theory states that something called the default network of the brain is activated while other major networks are largely deactivated during dreaming.  We use the default network in waking when we imagine scenarios and let our minds wander.  The specific enhancements and deficits of the brain created by this combination produces dreaming more or less automatically, drawing on all sorts of odd information we have gathered from waking.  

I think it is significant that we lose our supply of serotonin when we are dreaming, which is the neurotransmitter which allows us to store new memories.  Without it, we suffer from state-specific amnesia and can only remember our dreams after we wake up and regain our waking memory abilities.  In combination with the loss of our self-reflective awareness caused by the deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, it is no wonder, then, that we believe our dreams are really happening as we dream them, since we only have access to certain limited memories, stored in waking, to draw from to make sense of what is happening to us.  We can't learn how the rules are different in dreaming than waking, and subsequently ignore all sorts of unusual happenings and confabulations.

Most of what we dream about are variations of our waking concerns and conceptions.  So for instance, if we are having problems in our relationships, we tend to dream about them in exaggerated ways.  In that sense, our dreams are not so much about what happens to us on a day-to-day basis as similar to what we think and daydream about in waking.

The neurocognitive theory of dreaming considers dreaming epiphenomenal, an unavoidable byproduct of the physiological processes running during sleep, which have their own useful functions.  Basically, none of the speculated functions of dreaming itself have ever been satisfactorily proven so far, though opinions vary.

Several thoughts...

1. I think the brain can't turn itself "off" even when we are sleeping.
2. I agree that "Most of what we dream about are variations of our waking concerns and conceptions".
3. But maybe more to the point is "we believe our dreams are really happening as we dream them". This is very personally accurate. I constantly dream that I have not yet graduated from college and am taking a finals exam in a class I didn't attend. Or I am back at work, but in offices that make no sense to me. Rarely, I have awakened and thought I needed to dress for work.

The seeming reality of even absurd dreams is impressive. And some are indeed repetitious (floating on water or air or walking a street for hours with no end). Some involve every cat I've ever had (and some strangers) being attacked by bears (which makes no sense whatever) in amalgam of places I've lived.

The brain (and "mind" if you want to consider them separately - I still can't decide) is amazing. I know I'm basically a big blob of fats, proteins and (usually helpful) various parasites. What I can't understand is how it works.

[pattylt]

Several thoughts...

1.  I think the brain can't turn itself "off" even when we are sleeping.
2.  I agree that "Most of what we dream about are variations of our waking concerns and conceptions".
3.  But maybe more to the point is "we believe our dreams are really happening as we dream them". This is very personally accurate.  I constantly dream that I have not yet graduated from college and am taking a finals exam in a class I didn't attend.  Or I am back at work, but in offices that make no sense to me.  Rarely, I have awakened and thought I needed to dress for work.

The seeming reality of even absurd dreams is impressive.  And some are indeed repetitious (floating on water or air or walking a street for hours with no end).  Some involve every cat I've ever had (and some strangers) being attacked by bears (which makes no sense whatever) in amalgam of places I've lived.  

The brain (and "mind" if you want to consider them separately - I still can't decide) is amazing.  I know I'm basically a big blob of fats, proteins and (usually helpful) various parasites.  What I can't understand is how it works.
[/quote]

I’d love it if science could explain the dream state further and eventually have a full understanding of it.  It goes beyond humans as many animals dream as well.  It’s not something just related to our “higher” state.

[Cavebear]

Several thoughts...

1.  I think the brain can't turn itself "off" even when we are sleeping.
2.  I agree that "Most of what we dream about are variations of our waking concerns and conceptions".
3.  But maybe more to the point is "we believe our dreams are really happening as we dream them". This is very personally accurate.  I constantly dream that I have not yet graduated from college and am taking a finals exam in a class I didn't attend.  Or I am back at work, but in offices that make no sense to me.  Rarely, I have awakened and thought I needed to dress for work.

The seeming reality of even absurd dreams is impressive.  And some are indeed repetitious (floating on water or air or walking a street for hours with no end).  Some involve every cat I've ever had (and some strangers) being attacked by bears (which makes no sense whatever) in amalgam of places I've lived.  

The brain (and "mind" if you want to consider them separately - I still can't decide) is amazing.  I know I'm basically a big blob of fats, proteins and (usually helpful) various parasites.  What I can't understand is how it works.

I’d love it if science could explain the dream state further and eventually have a full understanding of it.  It goes beyond humans as many animals dream as well.  It’s not something just related to our “higher” state.
[/quote]

Not just us. Most animals have brains and brains will do what brains do. My cats certainly have dreams. They will suddenly move as if awake (as I know I do sometimes). They are asleep but obviously thinking about "something". I don't know if they are imaging chasing a mouse, running to the food bowl, or wanting my attention, but "something" is happening in their brains.

I suspect that detailed dreaming is a function of intelligence (maybe beginning in prey animals worried about predators in the night). And I've read that marine mammals only turn off half their brain at night (or they would drown). Do octupi dream? How would we ask them?

"Higher state" might mean more active or detailed dreaming, I don't know.

[Dom]

I know I'm basically a big blob of fats, proteins and (usually helpful) various parasites.  What I can't understand is how it works.

It is quite amazing. There are 900 to 1000 SPECIES of microorganisms living in each of us. 

The genomes that constitute the human microbiome represent a remarkably diverse array of microorganisms that includes bacteria, archaea (primitive single-celled organisms), fungi, and even some protozoans and nonliving viruses. Bacteria are by far the most numerous members of the human microbiome: the bacterial population alone is estimated at between 75 trillion and 200 trillion individual organisms, while the entire human body consists of about 50 trillion to 100 trillion somatic (body) cells. The sheer microbial abundance suggests that the human body is in fact a “supraorganism,” a collection of human and microbial cells and genes and thus a blend of human and microbial traits

So, primitive organisms own the place pretty much. We're just a vessel for them, and they outweigh our body cells by tons. They are part of what shapes our DNA. 

So, this vessel is powered by a computer, our brain. It's mind boggling!

[Cavebear]

I know I'm basically a big blob of fats, proteins and (usually helpful) various parasites.  What I can't understand is how it works.

It is quite amazing. There are 900 to 1000 SPECIES of microorganisms living in each of us. 

The genomes that constitute the human microbiome represent a remarkably diverse array of microorganisms that includes bacteria, archaea (primitive single-celled organisms), fungi, and even some protozoans and nonliving viruses. Bacteria are by far the most numerous members of the human microbiome: the bacterial population alone is estimated at between 75 trillion and 200 trillion individual organisms, while the entire human body consists of about 50 trillion to 100 trillion somatic (body) cells. The sheer microbial abundance suggests that the human body is in fact a “supraorganism,” a collection of human and microbial cells and genes and thus a blend of human and microbial traits

So, primitive organisms own the place pretty much. We're just a vessel for them, and they outweigh our body cells by tons. They are part of what shapes our DNA. 

So, this vessel is powered by a computer, our brain. It's mind boggling!

That was me about the blob of fats. I think I messed up a quote marker. Very Sorry! All my fault.

[adey67]

...but I also would like to to shed light on NDEs.

What in your opinion is the most convincing NDE report?
Now before you proceed you must understand that if this 'report' is not accompanied by signed witness statements from all those precent in the operating theatre then it is not a report, it's a story.

Eben Alexander? Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Alexander was let go from at least two of his jobs as a neurosurgeon after repeated malpractice lawsuits. For example, Dittrich notes that “In August 2003, UMass Memorial suspended Alexander’s surgical privileges ‘on the basis or allegation of improper performance of surgery.'”

In two of those lawsuits, Alexander appears to have altered or falsified medical records to cover his incompetence. He settled those suits, and still retains his medical license, but no longer practices as a doctor.

An incompetent surgeon turns to bullshit and fleeces the feeble minded out of million$.

Eben Alexander’s bogus trip to heaven

As a neurosurgeon (all be it a not very good one) he KNOWS there isn't and never has been a single scrap of evidence for the existence of an immortal soul/spirit or any form of post mortem existence. So yes, it's a huge con.

[adey67]

Hi, I wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Kathryn Elsie and I'm a former atheist turned theist. I was an atheist for about 15 years.  I became an atheist around 14 when I decided to say goodbye to the church and everything to do with it, for every reason that is common to atheism.  I had a huge hatred for Christianity and everything to do with religion, until I decided to just go and live my life as a non-believer.  That all changed when, years later, in 2016, I had a very dramatic spiritual experience that completely changed my perspective on life and how I view things.  I don't know if anyone on this forum has heard of near-death experiences, but I basically had a vision from God and then I had nearly died in a car crash and started going to Heaven.

I'm sure I have offended everyone on this community, and I'm sorry.  Introductions don't always feel necessary to me, but I realize they are to most people, so here I am.  I wanted to come here because I still enjoy atheists, and I find a level of intellectual discussion and clear thinking that doesn't always take place in the church, but I also would like to to shed light on NDEs.  If you don't believe them, good for you. We can still be friends one way or the other, but I think this makes for an interesting discussion.

I'm curious if anyone here has ever heard of near-death experiences?  There's a lot of them coming out now.  Just search in youtube: "NDE" or "I died" and you'll find many, many videos.  I'm here just to hang out and discuss.  I'm not really here to shove my views down anyone's throat, but I will write and have an opinion when I have one.  I'm also more than happy to answer any questions, as long as they are genuine questions coming from a place of curiosity and interest.

There are also tons of books about the subject of NDEs:
To Heaven and Back by Dr. Mary C Neal
Proof of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander
Just type into amazon "heaven" or "NDE"

Books by Dr. Raymond Moody
Books by Dr. Jeffrey Long
Books by PMH Atwater
Prominent grief specialist Dr. Elisabeth Kubler Ross, who wrote the seven stages of grief, also wrote several books on the topic of NDEs

Other sources:
Life After Life by Dr. Raymond Moody
[/url]IANDS by Dr. Raymond Moody
NDERF by Dr. Jeffrey and Jody Long
[url=https://spiritualawakeningsinternational.org/]SAI by Dr. Yvonne Kason

Spirituality Sites:
Spiritual-experiences.com
Near-death.com

Kathryn, as a retired RN with 34 years experience I've seen literally hundreds of deaths, NDE'S are a real phenomenon in themselves but I've NEVER seen or experienced anything that has even remotely made me believe NDE's are any sort of evidence for an afterlife. Medical imaging is now so advanced that if there was an immortal soul/spirit/life force we would be able to detect it and I believe it's been tried and......NADA, zip, nothing. As someone else said hypoxia is the likely cause (along with release of DMT). None of the books you've referenced can be reliably classified as anything other than anecdotes on paper. Even if said spirit force was (conveniently) undetectable the spirit would necessarily need to be able to interact with the physical senses and we could detect those interactions with current technology. Positive proof of a post mortem existence would be the greatest news story in human history bar none yet all we hear are crickets chirping.

[Astreja]

As someone who used to type Neurology reports, including EEGs, I am firmly of the opinion that consciousness requires a brain functioning within very specific parameters - in general, with a brainwave frequency higher than 3 Hz. I suspect that NDEs are spikes of hallucinatory awareness generated by a brain in extreme distress, and do not comprise evidence for life after death.

Because brainwave frequency drops to zero at death and stays there, I consider consciousness after brain death to be impossible.

[adey67]

As someone who used to type Neurology reports, including EEGs, I am firmly of the opinion that consciousness requires a brain functioning within very specific parameters - in general, with a brainwave frequency higher than 3 Hz.  I suspect that NDEs are spikes of hallucinatory awareness generated by a brain in extreme distress, and do not comprise evidence for life after death.

Because brainwave frequency drops to zero at death and stays there, I consider consciousness after brain death to be impossible.

Exactly right, also why would you trust anything a dying brain made you experience?

[Minimalist]

Exactly right, also why would you trust anything a dying brain made you experience?

People seem to find evidence for things they are already looking for.

[pattylt]

It is quite amazing. There are 900 to 1000 SPECIES of microorganisms living in each of us. 


So, primitive organisms own the place pretty much. We're just a vessel for them, and they outweigh our body cells by tons. They are part of what shapes our DNA. 

So, this vessel is powered by a computer, our brain. It's mind boggling!

That was me about the blob of fats.  I think I messed up a quote marker.  Very Sorry!  All my fault.

No problem! ?. I have issues as well…

I’ve heard it said that we have more nonhuman DNA in us than human DNA. All those critters DNA adds up to a lot!

[Cavebear]

I know I'm basically a big blob of fats, proteins and (usually helpful) various parasites.  What I can't understand is how it works.

It is quite amazing. There are 900 to 1000 SPECIES of microorganisms living in each of us. 

The genomes that constitute the human microbiome represent a remarkably diverse array of microorganisms that includes bacteria, archaea (primitive single-celled organisms), fungi, and even some protozoans and nonliving viruses. Bacteria are by far the most numerous members of the human microbiome: the bacterial population alone is estimated at between 75 trillion and 200 trillion individual organisms, while the entire human body consists of about 50 trillion to 100 trillion somatic (body) cells. The sheer microbial abundance suggests that the human body is in fact a “supraorganism,” a collection of human and microbial cells and genes and thus a blend of human and microbial traits

So, primitive organisms own the place pretty much. We're just a vessel for them, and they outweigh our body cells by tons. They are part of what shapes our DNA. 

So, this vessel is powered by a computer, our brain. It's mind boggling!

Seems that way...  Next, the scientists will discover our brains are from Mars...

[Cavebear]

There was a Far Side cartoon panel about a Dr shining a flashlight in a patient's eyes and saying something like "Oh this will be a great memory", but I can't dig it up.

[adey67]

That was me about the blob of fats.  I think I messed up a quote marker.  Very Sorry!  All my fault.

No problem! ?. I have issues as well…

I’ve heard it said that we have more nonhuman DNA in us than human DNA. All those critters DNA adds up to a lot!

Not just critters, I was very surprised to learn that we share approximately half our genome with the banana.

[Cranky]

Exactly right, also why would you trust anything a dying brain made you experience?

People seem to find evidence for things they are already looking for.

Yep, it's called confirmation bias.

[Bucky Ball]

Rats have NDE's.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/21132431...=211324819

The problem with this nonsense is that all people ever see or remember in them is music from their own cultures,
ideas they already know about, people they already know, gods they already believe in or are related to somehow. ...
never anything new or unique.

This "argument from ignorance" seems to be popular of late, here.
"Although we have proven that the moon is not made of spare ribs, we have not proven that its core cannot be filled with them;
therefore, the moon's core is filled with spare ribs."

[Aegon]

Rats go to heaven confirmed