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What is love?
#26

What is love?
(04-07-2023, 08:48 PM)ghall10 Wrote:
(04-06-2023, 07:44 PM)bluewater Wrote: What does it mean to love someone? Not brotherly or erotic love, but love for a neighbor or spouse.
Loving someone is choosing to put them ahead of ourselves. The major example of love came from God when he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to do on the cross for our sins. He sacrificed himself for us. Love is sacrificial.

Nope.
The role of the Jewish messiah was not ever to die for sin.
What your example is, .. is one of ancient ignorance, and ancient nonsense.
An evil ancient deity who could not say "I forgive you" is not about love.
The early Christians made the "die for sin" thing up, when the end-times didn't happen, which clearly Jesus and Paul and many others
believed who were Jewish apocalypticists. Jesus never said he was going to die for anyone. When the young man in Matthew asked Jesus what he had to do to get to heaven, Jesus said "keep the commandments" ... not that anyone was going to die for him. Gods who need people to die to make the "tally" fix up equal, are not divine. A real god would be in charge of reality, not subject to it, (as the Christians assert), as one that "needs" retribution. Even Jesus' disciples thought he came to restore the kingdom of Israel. He failed as a messiah. "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel". I doubt you actually read the Bible. If you do, you know where that comes from.
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#27

What is love?
(04-07-2023, 08:48 PM)ghall10 Wrote:
(04-06-2023, 07:44 PM)bluewater Wrote: What does it mean to love someone? Not brotherly or erotic love, but love for a neighbor or spouse.
Loving someone is choosing to put them ahead of ourselves. The major example of love came from God when he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to do on the cross for our sins. He sacrificed himself for us. Love is sacrificial.

How much did your god love his son that he set him up to be a sacrificial goat? How much did your god love humans that he would let even the worst off by offering up his own boy?

There's also the "but you'll be resurrected" thing. If Jesus didn't know that, then say goodbye to your "holy trinity" -- this clearly ain't a triune godhead of omnipotence. If Jesus did indeed know he'd be resurrected, then where's this sacrifice you speak of? I can do three days in jail standing on my head.

Unimpressive and bereft of thought.
On hiatus.
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#28

What is love?
(04-07-2023, 08:48 PM)ghall10 Wrote: Loving someone is choosing to put them ahead of ourselves. The major example of love came from God when he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to do on the cross for our sins. He sacrificed himself for us. Love is sacrificial.

No, love is not automatically sacrificial - it is possible to love without losing oneself, and that is much healthier psychologically.

I don't even see how the events in the Jesus myth qualify as a genuine sacrifice - if it was, he would've stayed dead rather than suffering a Passover long weekend inconvenience.

It's also rather rude of your god to send people to hell for not agreeing that a [temporary] human sacrifice is a jolly good thing, rather than a ghastly and immoral act.  IMO, if even one sentient being were condemned to eternal hell, for any reason whatsoever, it would demonstrate not a god of love but a god of infinite evil.

Needless to say, I reject the CruciFiction narrative completely.
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#29

What is love?
[Image: pUnLXR_jBpjbd8vLPE0df8jvJXt3m2sHyNMgsEwY...10d711e87e]
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#30

What is love?
(04-07-2023, 08:48 PM)ghall10 Wrote:
(04-06-2023, 07:44 PM)bluewater Wrote: What does it mean to love someone? Not brotherly or erotic love, but love for a neighbor or spouse.
Loving someone is choosing to put them ahead of ourselves. The major example of love came from God when he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to do on the cross for our sins. He sacrificed himself for us. Love is sacrificial.
I think a less fraught and biased definition is right there in the dictionary: "an intense feeling of deep affection".

I used to think, as you do, that love is just a cold, hard, naked decision to elevate the needs of another over your own. But I think that is symptom of love rather than love itself. You don't do that sort of thing for a worthless person, but for a valued one. You value someone based on their qualities and character and your intense awareness and observation of those things.

One problem is that love is a word with many nuanced meanings. The love you have for a spouse, a sibling, a child, a best friend, a pet, etc., are all distinct enough that maybe we should be doing something more akin to what the Eskimos do with their many words for different kinds of "snow". But what they all have in common -- what motivates the sacrifice, the giving, and so on is the high value you place on the one you love because you see something extraordinary in them.

I think it's a mistake to make love some kind of chore of self-denial as if it were a zero-sum game. Maybe the response of your beloved more than rewards the effort, is supposed to be the whole point of it. That is why unrequited / unappreciated love is so painful. So to divorce loving actions from the motivations that animate them and the loving actions it should also engender, and turn it into a grim, determined act of sacrifice, robs it of most (probably all) of its beauty and also makes it rather dysfunctional and one-sided.
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#31

What is love?
Substitutionary atonement is not a Biblical notion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement
The Hebrews had all the forgiveness they needed with their animal sacrificial system.
They were not waiting for a messiah for the purpose of sin forgiveness.

A nice discussion of Christian atonement is here :
https://atheistdiscussion.org/forums/sho...4#pid24804
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#32

What is love?
Human love has varying meanings. You can love a child. You can love an adult. Those are very different. I think "love" between adults is a combination of personal respect, physical attraction, and compatibility. Without any one of those, something fails.
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#33

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 01:00 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Substitutionary atonement is not a Biblical notion.

More interesting or at least relevant to the topic of what love is if voluntary substitutionary atonement, as in suffering in place of someone else for a wrong you did not commit, an expression of love? To that I would say yes; it's indeed an expression of love for someone else, but not toward any notion of justice or fairness though.
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#34

What is love?
(04-07-2023, 08:48 PM)ghall10 Wrote:
(04-06-2023, 07:44 PM)bluewater Wrote: What does it mean to love someone? Not brotherly or erotic love, but love for a neighbor or spouse.
Loving someone is choosing to put them ahead of ourselves. The major example of love came from God when he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to do on the cross for our sins. He sacrificed himself for us. Love is sacrificial.

I agree. Jesus loved those who crucified Him also, asking for their forgiveness.
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#35

What is love?
Those blinders can withstand hurricane force winds, can't they bluewater?
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#36

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 08:29 PM)bluewater Wrote:
(04-07-2023, 08:48 PM)ghall10 Wrote: Loving someone is choosing to put them ahead of ourselves. The major example of love came from God when he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to do on the cross for our sins. He sacrificed himself for us. Love is sacrificial.

I agree. Jesus loved those who crucified Him also, asking for their forgiveness.

That would actually be "asking for forgiveness FOR them".
He wasn't said to be asking "for their forgiveness". Why should they forgive him ?
If Jesus was real, he knew what he was doing, causing a ruckus in the temple, overturning the money changer's tables ... those who did that HAD to do that as Roman coin was "unclean". In the Roman occupation, all trouble-makers were executed by standing-order.
The Sanhedrin was never once in all of history called into session on Passover weekend.

That's nothing but made up xtian bs. The church held them responsible for thousands of years.
Until late in the 20th Century in the Christian Good Friday service, they were called "perfidious Jews".
You seem to think you know more than the entire xtian church.
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#37

What is love?
(04-07-2023, 08:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Nope.
The role of the Jewish messiah was not ever to die for sin.

And yet one of the most widely quoted Old Testament verses about the Messiah is Isa 53:5, "But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed."
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#38

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 08:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(04-08-2023, 08:29 PM)bluewater Wrote: I agree. Jesus loved those who crucified Him also, asking for their forgiveness.

That would actually be "asking for forgiveness FOR them".
He wasn't said to be asking "for their forgiveness". Why should they forgive him ?
If Jesus was real, he knew what he was doing, causing a ruckus in the temple, overturning the money changer's tables ... those who did that HAD to do that as Roman coin was "unclean". In the Roman occupation, all trouble-makers were executed by standing-order.
The Sanhedrin was never once in all of history called into session on Passover weekend.

That's nothing but made up xtian bs. The church held them responsible for thousands of years.
Until late in the 20th Century in the Christian Good Friday service, they were called "perfidious Jews".
You seem to think you know more than the entire xtian church.

Jesus was asking His Father to forgive them for crucifying His Son. Jesus loved them dispite their crucifying Him.
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#39

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 08:56 PM)bluewater Wrote:
(04-07-2023, 08:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Nope.
The role of the Jewish messiah was not ever to die for sin.

And yet one of the most widely quoted Old Testament verses about the Messiah is Isa 53:5, "But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed."

Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Jesus was a fashionista. He looked out from the cross and saw the horrible way they were dressed in clashing stripes and forbidden garments.
That's why he asked the Father to forgive them .... such bad taste. LOL
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#40

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 09:00 PM)bluewater Wrote:
(04-08-2023, 08:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: That would actually be "asking for forgiveness FOR them".
He wasn't said to be asking "for their forgiveness". Why should they forgive him ?
If Jesus was real, he knew what he was doing, causing a ruckus in the temple, overturning the money changer's tables ... those who did that HAD to do that as Roman coin was "unclean". In the Roman occupation, all trouble-makers were executed by standing-order.
The Sanhedrin was never once in all of history called into session on Passover weekend.

That's nothing but made up xtian bs. The church held them responsible for thousands of years.
Until late in the 20th Century in the Christian Good Friday service, they were called "perfidious Jews".
You seem to think you know more than the entire xtian church.

Jesus was asking His Father to forgive them for crucifying His Son. Jesus loved them dispite their crucifying Him.

No, no and no.
Isaiah's suffering “servant” referred to an individual living in Babylon, whose vicarious suffering explains why Israel deserves forgiveness for the grievous sins that caused its exile. Placed in the broader narrative of Isaiah 40–55, where the prophet speaks of “Israel my servant”.
Another hijacking (never intended) of JEWISH scripture.

Prophesy was never prediction.
Too bad you know nothing about the OT. .
Isaiah never knew anything about Jesus.

The role of a Hebrew prophet was NEVER to predict the future.
You people have taken Jewish scripture out of context and slapped a never intended meaning on it.
It's nothing but ignorance of their culture. who do not buy what you
I already PROVED this with multiple references and quotes from CHRISTIAN experts who do not buy what you are selling.
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#41

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 09:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(04-08-2023, 08:56 PM)bluewater Wrote: And yet one of the most widely quoted Old Testament verses about the Messiah is Isa 53:5, "But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed."

Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Jesus was not sacrificed in the fire, neither to some strange god.
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#42

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 09:42 PM)bluewater Wrote:
(04-08-2023, 09:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft.

Jesus was not sacrificed in the fire, neither to some strange god.

Don't be stupid.
YOU are interpreting omens.
Prophesy was NOT about prediction of the future by omens.
This was the scripture (the "word of God") , written by the Jews. They don't buy this your shit in any way.
They do not buy that this was a prediction of Jesus.

In fact early Christian fathers admitted Isaiah did NOT refer to Jesus.
https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-sufferi...isaiah-53/
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#43

What is love?
god does not exist. jesus is make believe.
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#44

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 10:22 PM)no one Wrote: god does not exist. jesus is make believe.

That is true. Absolutely true. Smile
But sometimes you have to talk to them in their own metaphors and languages. Smile

That's why I took those along with me at TTA on my journey through my PhD in the Ivy League. Ancient Semitic Languages and Cultures.
To be perfectly honest sculling on the James River at 5:00 AM in the early Junes was more meaningful than the classes, but they will always be a part of my "family".
They know who they are. I will always be grateful for their support. I did have the best scholars in the world as professors.
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#45

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 09:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(04-08-2023, 09:42 PM)bluewater Wrote: Jesus was not sacrificed in the fire, neither to some strange god.

Don't be stupid.
YOU are interpreting omens.
Prophesy was NOT about prediction of the future by omens.
This was the scripture (the "word of God") , written by the Jews. They don't buy this your shit in any way.
They do not buy that this was a prediction of Jesus.

In fact early Christian fathers admitted Isaiah did NOT refer to Jesus.
https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-sufferi...isaiah-53/

Some Jews don't buy it as you say, and as you don't buy it either. But some Jews do, such as Paul the Apostle, a Jew. He was aware of Isa 53 when he wrote, "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures," (1Cor 15:3). Peter was a Jew who accompanied Jesus and was aware of Isa 53 when he wrote, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed" (1Pet 2:24).

Matthew, a Jew who accompanied Jesus knew that Isaiah spoke of Jesus dying for our sins, as he quoted Isa 53:4, "This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 'HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES' " (Mat 8:17).

Paul and Peter both loved Jesus, to the point of loosing their life in order to testify about Jesus. "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
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#46

What is love?
Thinker Builder Gardener Spy?


You have never had a thought in your life.

Your garden of bullshit is built upon lies.
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#47

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 11:55 PM)no one Wrote: Thinker Builder Gardener Spy?


You have never had a thought in your life.

Your garden of bullshit is built upon lies.

I think that your life has value. Though you don't agree with my worldview or my faith, I have a level of respect for you. You are a living being and I regard you as someone with importance and worth.
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#48

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 09:42 PM)bluewater Wrote:
(04-08-2023, 09:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire...

Jesus was not sacrificed in the fire...
(snipped for clarity)

We've got a professional hair-splitter here. hobo
[Image: Bastard-Signature.jpg]
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#49

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 11:39 PM)bluewater Wrote:
(04-08-2023, 09:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Don't be stupid.
YOU are interpreting omens.
Prophesy was NOT about prediction of the future by omens.
This was the scripture (the "word of God") , written by the Jews. They don't buy this your shit in any way.
They do not buy that this was a prediction of Jesus.

In fact early Christian fathers admitted Isaiah did NOT refer to Jesus.
https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-sufferi...isaiah-53/

Some Jews don't buy it as you say, and as you don't buy it either. But some Jews do, such as Paul the Apostle, a Jew. He was aware of Isa 53 when he wrote, "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures," (1Cor 15:3). Peter was a Jew who accompanied Jesus and was aware of Isa 53 when he wrote, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed" (1Pet 2:24).

Matthew, a Jew who accompanied Jesus knew that Isaiah spoke of Jesus dying for our sins, as he quoted Isa 53:4, "This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 'HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES' " (Mat 8:17).

Paul and Peter both loved Jesus, to the point of loosing their life in order to testify about Jesus. "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Jesus seems to have failed about "CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES' " (Mat 8:17)". Bubonic Plague, Smallpox, STDs, HIV, Covid, etc. Can you name one he did stop? Whistling

BTW about Peter... His death is not described in scripture. What is your basis for saying he died losing his life "in order to testify about Jesus"? Just mildly curious.
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#50

What is love?
(04-08-2023, 11:39 PM)bluewater Wrote:
(04-08-2023, 09:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Don't be stupid.
YOU are interpreting omens.
Prophesy was NOT about prediction of the future by omens.
This was the scripture (the "word of God") , written by the Jews. They don't buy this your shit in any way.
They do not buy that this was a prediction of Jesus.

In fact early Christian fathers admitted Isaiah did NOT refer to Jesus.
https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-sufferi...isaiah-53/

Some Jews don't buy it as you say, and as you don't buy it either. But some Jews do, such as Paul the Apostle, a Jew. He was aware of Isa 53 when he wrote, "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures," (1Cor 15:3). Peter was a Jew who accompanied Jesus and was aware of Isa 53 when he wrote, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed" (1Pet 2:24).

Matthew, a Jew who accompanied Jesus knew that Isaiah spoke of Jesus dying for our sins, as he quoted Isa 53:4, "This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: 'HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES' " (Mat 8:17).

Paul and Peter both loved Jesus, to the point of loosing their life in order to testify about Jesus. "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Prove it.
There is no evidence for any of that shit.
Stop preaching. It's now allowed here.
No one cares about your Babble quotes.
Babble quotes are the claim, not the evidence.

Why EXACTLY are you here ?

Millions upon millions of Jews don't buy that shit.

You're like 25 years too lake with this shit. It's all been debunked.
It's YOUR fault that you are totally out of touch with current academics.
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