Truth in Stereotype

[Vorpal]

Charges of racism, sexism, homophobia and the like often times are lodged at individuals based on statements that adhere to stereotype to a degree.  Stereotype accuracy should be assessed in a probabilistic fashion by inspecting how likely a generic statement is to be true when applied to individuals respective of the relevant groups.

Information that is accurately descriptive of a group does not necessarily imply any type of causation whatsoever. It is still valuable in some way is it not?
Information that is generally true but not absolutely true is still quite valuable. Political correctness is a stumbling block in this type of discussion. Discussions about trends are very valuable. And understanding of what a trend is essential however.

Negative stereotypes have been linked to prejudice and discrimination. The wholesale dismissal of stereotypes that extends to all perceptions of group differences has a serious disadvantage. The larger the difference between the groups, the more obvious it is that the stereotype to some extent is accurate. All efforts at eradicating demonstrably false stereotypes may be inadvertantly hindered. Outright denial of group differences where they do exist and contribute to the received inequality between groups severely restricts the range of actions that could be taken to address the problem.

Let's look at a small example. A building management company is budgeting for ongoing remodeling efforts. They have budgeted to change the diaper changing stations in female restrooms at a higher rate then diaper changing stations in male restrooms based on data. Is this a sexist faux pas in some fashion?

[Inkubus]

What?

[Vorpal]

What?

You heard me.

[GenesisNemesis]

You can always tell who made the thread

[Vera]

What?

Female bad, man oppressed and suffering. That's all this troll has ever truly had and wanted to say (and some enlightened ideas about whose fault it is when a female gets raped).

But at least he has "good intentions". Or something

[Inkubus]

What?

You heard me.

I hear you troll.

[Vorpal]

Does anyone recall the trouble Sam Harris got into? He interviewed the author of the bell curve in a podcast. He tried to glean information based on group data and was criticized sharply by the liberal media. He argued that it's possible to look at differences based on race.  He thought it a laudable goal to discern the differences in cognitive test scores so that policy decisions could be made to reduce those differences.  He was a pretty much labelled a racist.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Stereotype accuracy should be assessed in a probabilistic fashion by inspecting how likely a generic statement is to be true when applied to individuals respective of the relevant groups.

I prefer treating individuals as individuals. What value do you think stereotypes hold when looking at people?

[Vorpal]

Stereotype accuracy should be assessed in a probabilistic fashion by inspecting how likely a generic statement is to be true when applied to individuals respective of the relevant groups.

I prefer treating individuals as individuals. What value do you think stereotypes hold when looking at people?

Well sure, in personal life. But, when it comes to planning for the future, group information is valuable in decisions regarding engineering and policy.  Should we pretend our population is more homogeneous than it is ? Shouldn't we tailor aspects based on group differences rather than pretending a genericized norm will meet all needs?

[Thumpalumpacus]

But, when it comes to planning for the future, group information is valuable in decisions regarding engineering and policy.  Should we pretend our population is more homogeneous than it is ? Shouldn't we tailor aspects based on group differences rather than pretending a genericized norm will meet all needs?

So you think stereotypes should be accommodated when policy-makers are planning things? And how do stereotypes affecting engineering? Can you lay this line of thinking out?

I don't think we should pretend our society is homogeneous, which is precisely why I reject treating groups of people as homogeneous units.

Tailoring how we treat individuals based upon group norms is rather like driving two-penny nails with a six-pound sledgehammer. I don't have a problem with treating each individual as an individual regardless of race, creed, or gender. What need is there to lump them into a category and going at it?

[skyking]

The very tools used to make the groupings lend themselves to racism and oppression.

[GenesisNemesis]

Does anyone recall the trouble Sam Harris got into? He interviewed the author of the bell curve in a podcast. He tried to glean information based on group data and was criticized sharply by the liberal media. He argued that it's possible to look at differences based on race.  He thought it a laudable goal to discern the differences in cognitive test scores so that policy decisions could be made to reduce those differences.  He was a pretty much labelled a racist.

Or you could take 10 seconds to think critically and figure out why racial IQ differences are bullshit.

[Vorpal]

Does anyone recall the trouble Sam Harris got into? He interviewed the author of the bell curve in a podcast. He tried to glean information based on group data and was criticized sharply by the liberal media. He argued that it's possible to look at differences based on race.  He thought it a laudable goal to discern the differences in cognitive test scores so that policy decisions could be made to reduce those differences.  He was a pretty much labelled a racist.

Or you could take 10 seconds to think critically and figure out why racial IQ differences are bullshit.

Last time I checked this was a discussion  forum.  Please show your work or you won't get full credit.

[Vorpal]

But, when it comes to planning for the future, group information is valuable in decisions regarding engineering and policy.  Should we pretend our population is more homogeneous than it is ? Shouldn't we tailor aspects based on group differences rather than pretending a genericized norm will meet all needs?

So you think stereotypes should be accommodated when policy-makers are planning things? And how do stereotypes affecting engineering? Can you lay this line of thinking out?

I don't think we should pretend our society is homogeneous, which is precisely why I reject treating groups of people as homogeneous units.

Tailoring how we treat individuals based upon group norms is rather like driving two-penny nails with a six-pound sledgehammer. I don't have a problem with treating each individual as an individual regardless of race, creed, or gender. What need is there to lump them into a category and going at it?

An engineering school asked it's students to write about design issues related to designing a new building to house their classrooms.  One student included specifics about bathroom facilities.  He included one two-toilet bathroom for women and one six toilet bathroom (including three urinals) for men on each floor. He was downgraded for this detail on the basis of unfairness.  He defended his position in class and was brought before the ethics board of the university.  Do you think the student should be disciplined?

[Inkubus]

An engineering school? What was the M/F ratio?

[Vorpal]

An engineering school? What was the M/F ratio?

Fifteen percent women.

They hope to recruit more women going forward.

[Aegon]

Let's look at a small example. A building management company is budgeting for ongoing remodeling efforts. They have budgeted to change the diaper changing stations in female restrooms at a higher rate then diaper changing stations in male restrooms based on data. Is this a sexist faux pas in some fashion?

Why would they have a separate budget for male and female bathroom changing stations instead of one budget line for diaper changing stations generally

[Vorpal]

Let's look at a small example. A building management company is budgeting for ongoing remodeling efforts. They have budgeted to change the diaper changing stations in female restrooms at a higher rate then diaper changing stations in male restrooms based on data. Is this a sexist faux pas in some fashion?

Why would they have a separate budget for male and female bathroom changing stations instead of one budget line for diaper changing stations generally

It is one budget. But, the projected wear and tear is different.  The stations in the  women's room wear out faster than the ones in the men's room.  Thus, they are not replaced as frequently in the men's room.

[skyking]

No fuax pas to keep the equipment in good working order. If a guy comes in and misuses the men's room baby station and breaks it off prematurely, I'd expect it to get fixed pronto.

[Vorpal]

No fuax pas to keep the equipment in good working order. If a guy comes in and misuses the men's room baby station and breaks it off prematurely, I'd expect it to get fixed pronto.

The question is: is there anything wrong with predicting that women will change diapers more than men, and planning maintenance accordingly?

[rocinantexyz]

What I don't understand is why people are continuing to swallow the OP's troll bait.

[GenesisNemesis]

What I don't understand is why people are continuing to swallow the OP's troll bait.

Because there is a chance OP is serious. Though likely a troll.

[Thumpalumpacus]

So you think stereotypes should be accommodated when policy-makers are planning things? And how do stereotypes affecting engineering? Can you lay this line of thinking out?

I don't think we should pretend our society is homogeneous, which is precisely why I reject treating groups of people as homogeneous units.

Tailoring how we treat individuals based upon group norms is rather like driving two-penny nails with a six-pound sledgehammer. I don't have a problem with treating each individual as an individual regardless of race, creed, or gender. What need is there to lump them into a category and going at it?

An engineering school asked it's students to write about design issues related to designing a new building to house their classrooms.  One student included specifics about bathroom facilities.  He included one two-toilet bathroom for women and one six toilet bathroom (including three urinals) for men on each floor. He was downgraded for this detail on the basis of unfairness.  He defended his position in class and was brought before the ethics board of the university.  Do you think the student should be disciplined?

That depends. What's the gender ratio in the school? Are two toilets sufficient to serve the female population? Does the male population need six toilets? Which school was this where this student was ethically disciplined for a design study? Did he say anything in his defense that brought on the further inquiry?

Also, since most bodily waste is urine, and men can pee standing up while women generally cannot, his design would seem pretty wasteful. Wouldn't it be more economical to give the men's room more urinals and fewer toilets?

[Vera]

What I don't understand is why people are continuing to swallow the OP's troll bait.

Because there is a chance OP is serious. Though likely a troll.

Yes, he's serious. In his hatred (oh, I'm sorry, was it fear? Was he hurt by nasty, rape-claiming and ear-flicking females? I forget, at this point, what the consensus on our loveable misogynist and rape apologist is) of women and his pathetically lame, not even thinly-veiled attempts at finding new, ever more pathetic and puerile ways of proving how oppressed men are and how evil, entitled and dangerous females are.

He and the myriad of manosphere trash like him are deadly serious. Often literally.

But let's keep on pretending that he really *is* here with good intentions and is willfully being misunderstood and misjudged by the big ole, intolerant meanies of this forum.

[rocinantexyz]

Because there is a chance OP is serious. Though likely a troll.

When they doubled down on subtracting apples from oranges; I figured it was safe to assume they are not serious and ignored them.

eta: seeing quotes from them since from other users posts has supported that assumption, imo.