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Deathbed Dilemmas
#1

Deathbed Dilemmas
Huh   What is an atheist to do when facing death or the death of a loved one or the death of someone else's loved one when the faithful are in the mix?

Personally, I would never bring up my atheism in the face of someone else's grief. Being able to quell anxieties about the finality of death is one of the benefits of belief in the afterlife. Denial is a powerful buffer that I am not willing to mess with during someone else's acute pain.  Boundaries and priorities are more important than me on a soapbox.

Unfortunately, the religious do not seem to follow the same stance.  In the face of a loved one's death within the world of the atheist, Xtians seem to want to now challenge beliefs. This is the opportunity for a deathbed conversion. 

This is not a time for a debate. Accept what you know - I am an atheist, and support me as an atheist. Do not pretend I am a theist all of a sudden. Do not try to change my mind to ease my pain.  Do not be talking about how you would feel if you were an atheist when your loved one died. Do not get mad at me for believing my loved one as well as yours no longer exists.
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#2

Deathbed Dilemmas
An eternal problem, as Ingersoll noted over a century ago.


Quote:Orthodox Christians have the habit of claiming all great men, all men who have held
important positions, men of reputation, men of wealth. As soon as the funeral is over
clergymen begin to relate imaginary conversations with the deceased, and in a very little
while the great man is changed to a Christian -- possibly to a saint.

-- Robert Green Ingersoll


I doubt they will ever change.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#3

Deathbed Dilemmas
Just to play devil's (god's Consider ) advocate for a second... when I was religious I used to worry about the people I loved going to hell. That was before I gradually stopped believing in hell (and later on at all, obviously) but it really did cause me a lot of anxiety and dread. I would find some "loopholes" in my mind but I genuinely think for *some* this does play a part.

A much, much larger part, especially when it's not someone really close and loved who's dying, is at best complete insensitivity and lack of empathy, and at worst something much more malignant.

But yes, I agree, blathering about "heaven getting another angel" and the like should be kept to one's primitive-thinking and security-blanket-clutching self.

In all fairness, the inability to really put oneself in someone else's shoes and at least try and see things through their own eyes is not limited purely to the religious (though they can be especially obnoxious about it).
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#4

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-15-2021, 05:29 PM)JJonas93 Wrote: Huh   What is an atheist to do when facing death or the death of a loved one or the death of someone else's loved one when the faithful are in the mix?

Personally, I would never bring up my atheism in the face of someone else's grief. Being able to quell anxieties about the finality of death is one of the benefits of belief in the afterlife. Denial is a powerful buffer that I am not willing to mess with during someone else's acute pain.  Boundaries and priorities are more important than me on a soapbox.

Unfortunately, the religious do not seem to follow the same stance.  In the face of a loved one's death within the world of the atheist, Xtians seem to want to now challenge beliefs. This is the opportunity for a deathbed conversion. 

This is not a time for a debate. Accept what you know - I am an atheist, and support me as an atheist. Do not pretend I am a theist all of a sudden. Do not try to change my mind to ease my pain.  Do not be talking about how you would feel if you were an atheist when your loved one died. Do not get mad at me for believing my loved one as well as yours no longer exists.

My mom asked to NOT see a priest when she was on her death bed in a hospital. The priest showed up anyway and I had to physically block him from entering her room. 

My husband, raised catholic but not religious, was on his death bed at home. I asked him if he wanted a priest, I don't care, I just wanted him to be as happy as possible in his last few hours. He rose to the occasion and went into a long, long rant about religion and pretentiousness and how phony they all were. He made me laugh, and when he saw that, it made him smile. So, I am glad I asked. I would have done or said anything to put a smile on his face at this time.

My aunt on the other hand, a catholic who found much tranquility in her religion as she coped with old age, wanted to have a priest to come and see her. The dude from her local church showed up and spent all night and part of the next day by her side, until she passed.

All three died peacefully the way they wanted, and I support all of it. Everyone deserves a peaceful death as far as I am concerned. Whatever floats their boat is what they should be able to enjoy these last few hours.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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#5

Deathbed Dilemmas
"I would have done or said anything to put a smile on his face at this time." Mission accomplished, that sounded sweet Smile

I find that most of my friends and family have loved ones who know how they feel about it, so that line is not even a thing to defend. I am sorry for those many of you with mixed up situations.
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#6

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-15-2021, 05:29 PM)JJonas93 Wrote: Huh   What is an atheist to do when facing death or the death of a loved one or the death of someone else's loved one when the faithful are in the mix?

I sat on the death beds of both my parents. Both died in hospital. When my mother lay in her final coma, I sent her a priest to do the final rites. Not for me, but for her sake, since noone knows, if some thread of consciousness is left to appreciate the motion. My mother wasn't rabidly religious, but I drove her to church every sunday and she seemed to enjoy it. So, it seemed the right thing to do.

It's funny that the thought never crossed my mind when my father died. It just seemed off in his case although he also went to church on sundays.
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#7

Deathbed Dilemmas
In the large secular hospital I work/train in, there are chaplains from some of the major faith groups. They might get asked *once* if they are religious.
If they say "no", no one is going to bother them about it, from the staff. It's definitely not the time to start an argument. We have discussed somewhere here strategies for dealing with "let's all hold hands and pray now", when it's a sudden surprise. If it's demand and a patient I don't know, I excuse myself to go to the restroom. If it's someone I know and we have gotten to know, and the family is including us, as trusted caregivers, then I might do the hand-holding to be kind. You have to be prepared. It's none of their business what I believe. If it were a family member, it depends on who it is ... but none of my family would be asking for anything to do with prayers anyway, so I guess I'm lucky.

It is funny, you'd think that the religious would be the first to be ready and anxious to go to heaven. In fact, in reality, they are the worst ones saying "do everything", when asked about what they want done in terminal situations. I suspect many do not *really* buy the heaven stuff.
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#8

Deathbed Dilemmas
My wife worked an ICU and observed that too. Sometimes grace is not easily found.
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#9

Deathbed Dilemmas
I won't be doing the DNR thing. I will linger as long as I can even if subjected to extended periods of delirium since it is my choice. Sorry, not sorry, to healthcare workers for your potential burn-out. You are getting paid for your time. I am not electing an easy death to make it easy on others.
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#10

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-15-2021, 08:11 PM)JJonas93 Wrote: I won't be doing the DNR thing. I will linger as long as I can even if subjected to extended periods of delirium since it is my choice.  Sorry, not sorry, to healthcare workers for your potential burn-out. You are getting paid for your time.  I am not electing an easy death to make it easy on others.

Well, I'll restore the equilibrium. I am definitely going for an easy death, and I will avoid being near healthcare professionals if at all possible. Lingering sounds hellish to me, a quick and clean exit sounds good to me.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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#11

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-15-2021, 08:36 PM)Dom Wrote:
(10-15-2021, 08:11 PM)JJonas93 Wrote: I won't be doing the DNR thing. I will linger as long as I can even if subjected to extended periods of delirium since it is my choice.  Sorry, not sorry, to healthcare workers for your potential burn-out. You are getting paid for your time.  I am not electing an easy death to make it easy on others.

Well, I'll restore the equilibrium. I am definitely going for an easy death, and I will avoid being near healthcare professionals if at all possible. Lingering sounds hellish to me, a quick and clean exit sounds good to me.

Fair enough.
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#12

Deathbed Dilemmas
me too Dom. Timing is everything.
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#13

Deathbed Dilemmas
I wonder sometimes what, if anything, girlyman did. I know if I chose an exit strategy as discussed, that I would do all in my power to make it look like a clumsy old man fell and broke his fool neck, or something.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#14

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-15-2021, 10:38 PM)Fireball Wrote: I wonder sometimes what, if anything, girlyman did. I know if I chose an exit strategy as discussed, that I would do all in my power to make it look like a clumsy old man fell and broke his fool neck, or something.

I don't think Girly was ready to go. Well, he did make all the arrangements and took care of all the financial stuff, but I don't think he gave in to his cancer at the time. It overpowered him quicker than he thought. At least that was my impression, he had some more plans...
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#15

Deathbed Dilemmas
I've never imposed my atheism on anyone's deathbed experience. I will be treated the same in return -- or I'll summon a nurse and tell them that this person is disturbing me, if one's handy. If not, I'll make sure my last words are something along the lines of "Now will you please shut up and fuck off?"
On hiatus.
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#16

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-15-2021, 10:38 PM)Fireball Wrote: I wonder sometimes what, if anything, girlyman did. I know if I chose an exit strategy as discussed, that I would do all in my power to make it look like a clumsy old man fell and broke his fool neck, or something.
I devised a system that seems pretty foolproof. The implementation will take some polishing but it goes like this:
The nitrogen go bag as described by our dearly departed friend.
A couple of these nitrogen cartridges.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/nitrog...e0QAvD_BwE

a big helium balloon.
A timer system as yet to be detailed.
Kick back on your favorite lounge chair outside, set the timer, place the go bag over your head and do the deed.
The timer goes off and releases the go bag from around your neck, and the helium balloon takes the timer, nitrogen cartridges, and the go bag off into the wild blue yonder.
Your neighbor finds you dead from apparent natural causes in your back yard. ( sorry neighbor ).
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#17

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-16-2021, 02:35 AM)skyking Wrote:
(10-15-2021, 10:38 PM)Fireball Wrote: I wonder sometimes what, if anything, girlyman did. I know if I chose an exit strategy as discussed, that I would do all in my power to make it look like a clumsy old man fell and broke his fool neck, or something.
I devised a system that seems pretty foolproof. The implementation will take some polishing but it goes like this:
The nitrogen go bag as described by our dearly departed friend.
A couple of these nitrogen cartridges.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/nitrog...e0QAvD_BwE

a big helium balloon.
A timer system as yet to be detailed.
Kick back on your favorite lounge chair outside, set the timer, place the go bag over your head and do the deed.
The timer goes off and releases the go bag from around your neck, and the helium balloon takes the timer, nitrogen cartridges, and the go bag off into the wild blue yonder.
Your neighbor finds you dead from apparent natural causes in your back yard. ( sorry neighbor ).

That's interesting. I had considered what to do with the bag, but hadn't come up with anything, mostly for lack of doing a lot of thinking about it. That's one way to do it.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#18

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-16-2021, 01:18 PM)Fireball Wrote:
(10-16-2021, 02:35 AM)skyking Wrote:
(10-15-2021, 10:38 PM)Fireball Wrote: I wonder sometimes what, if anything, girlyman did. I know if I chose an exit strategy as discussed, that I would do all in my power to make it look like a clumsy old man fell and broke his fool neck, or something.
I devised a system that seems pretty foolproof. The implementation will take some polishing but it goes like this:
The nitrogen go bag as described by our dearly departed friend.
A couple of these nitrogen cartridges.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/nitrog...e0QAvD_BwE

a big helium balloon.
A timer system as yet to be detailed.
Kick back on your favorite lounge chair outside, set the timer, place the go bag over your head and do the deed.
The timer goes off and releases the go bag from around your neck, and the helium balloon takes the timer, nitrogen cartridges, and the go bag off into the wild blue yonder.
Your neighbor finds you dead from apparent natural causes in your back yard. ( sorry neighbor ).

That's interesting. I had considered what to do with the bag, but hadn't come up with anything, mostly for lack of doing a lot of thinking about it. That's one way to do it.

There is a society where people will come and sit with you and remove the bag and leave. I haven't looked for them in quite a while, but some digging online usually unearths them. They don't do it for just anyone, but if you are old or suffering from something unbearable for you, they do consider you. They travel.
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#19

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-15-2021, 08:36 PM)Dom Wrote:
(10-15-2021, 08:11 PM)JJonas93 Wrote: I won't be doing the DNR thing. I will linger as long as I can even if subjected to extended periods of delirium since it is my choice.  Sorry, not sorry, to healthcare workers for your potential burn-out. You are getting paid for your time.  I am not electing an easy death to make it easy on others.

Well, I'll restore the equilibrium. I am definitely going for an easy death, and I will avoid being near healthcare professionals if at all possible. Lingering sounds hellish to me, a quick and clean exit sounds good to me.

Seen it many many times in my 30+ year career and I wouldn't recommend it, it's much much better to go quickly. To those who say otherwise I'd urge them to watch a few hospice/palliative care documentaries before wishing that on themselves there are some good ones on YouTube including a fairly graphic fly on the wall one about Grace hospital in Canada.
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
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#20

Deathbed Dilemmas
We're going through this with my mother in law. We found some really good caretakers (neither one of us is able to move her, let alone pick her up). She was in that facility and had a stroke January 2020. She's paralyzed on her right side. I don't ever want to be like that.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#21

Deathbed Dilemmas
I liked your post fireball but you know what I mean there's nothing to like about it.
Dom that sounds like a nice group of people.
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#22

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-16-2021, 01:59 PM)Dom Wrote:
(10-16-2021, 01:18 PM)Fireball Wrote:
(10-16-2021, 02:35 AM)skyking Wrote: I devised a system that seems pretty foolproof. The implementation will take some polishing but it goes like this:
The nitrogen go bag as described by our dearly departed friend.
A couple of these nitrogen cartridges.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/nitrog...e0QAvD_BwE

a big helium balloon.
A timer system as yet to be detailed.
Kick back on your favorite lounge chair outside, set the timer, place the go bag over your head and do the deed.
The timer goes off and releases the go bag from around your neck, and the helium balloon takes the timer, nitrogen cartridges, and the go bag off into the wild blue yonder.
Your neighbor finds you dead from apparent natural causes in your back yard. ( sorry neighbor ).

That's interesting. I had considered what to do with the bag, but hadn't come up with anything, mostly for lack of doing a lot of thinking about it. That's one way to do it.

There is a society where people will come and sit with you and remove the bag and leave. I haven't looked for them in quite a while, but some digging online usually unearths them. They don't do it for just anyone, but if you are old or suffering from something unbearable for you, they do consider you. They travel.

I'd hesitate to go that route, simply because if my death looked suspicious in any way, they could become a person of interest.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#23

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-16-2021, 08:44 PM)skyking Wrote: I liked your post fireball but you know what I mean there's nothing to like about it.
Dom that sounds like a nice group of people.

I get it. She still manages food off a spoon (held by someone else), but nothing intelligible comes out of her when she vocalizes.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#24

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-16-2021, 02:36 PM)adey67 Wrote:
(10-15-2021, 08:36 PM)Dom Wrote:
(10-15-2021, 08:11 PM)JJonas93 Wrote: I won't be doing the DNR thing. I will linger as long as I can even if subjected to extended periods of delirium since it is my choice.  Sorry, not sorry, to healthcare workers for your potential burn-out. You are getting paid for your time.  I am not electing an easy death to make it easy on others.

Well, I'll restore the equilibrium. I am definitely going for an easy death, and I will avoid being near healthcare professionals if at all possible. Lingering sounds hellish to me, a quick and clean exit sounds good to me.

Seen it many many times in my 30+ year career and I wouldn't recommend it, it's much much better to go quickly. To those who say otherwise I'd urge them to watch a few hospice/palliative care documentaries before wishing that on themselves there are some good ones on YouTube including a fairly graphic fly on the wall one about Grace hospital in Canada.

I do not think I need to watch any videos. My brother is living this right now.  I am the only one out of state. I visited him for six hours on one day, and four hours the next two days. The family is divided on this.   A one hour visit does not give an accurate idea of his range of cognition. There is only a 1 in 1000 he will come out of it.  He tries to communicate. He smiles at times.  At times he appears to what to listen to tv or music. Sometimes he  is agitated and other times sedated.  He can answer yes or no questions  but not always in a way that makes sense.  He dreams at night.

 I would want this existence over nothingness. I believe that it is also my brother's wish.  People have their own preferences on this. I find healthcare professionals in the ICU are biased, and I told them so.
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#25

Deathbed Dilemmas
I won't spend any energy figuring out how to fake my suicide, ever. I will mobilize my efforts around living at the best level of function that I can.
Maybe if I am 100 and have several diseases and conditions and pain, I will submit to hospice. Otherwise probably not.
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