Isnt Atheism borderline socialism?

[julep]

I guess I'm not clear on why this is some kind of pejorative.  After all, socialism is what lets you live comfortably in your parents' Wifi-enabled basement over there in Norway (if that  claim is true).  You're not out fishing in the fjords so that you don't starve to death, or slaving away on an oil rig in the North Sea, or emigrating to the US in order to work a bunch of shit jobs because that's better than nothing, as my Norwegian great-grandparents did.  

Why are you, a Scandinavian, acting as though there's something nefarious about socialism?  

There are other atheist discussion boards with a higher proportion of conservatives.  I've lurked on them.  There are atheist conservatives on this board.  There are prominent conservative/libertarian atheists.  I disagree with them politically and socially, but I'm glad they are part of the greater confrontation between atheists and religion.      

Next up from you, now that your faffing posts have failed to gain traction: atheists have suspiciously low divorce rates; what are they hiding?

[Dancefortwo]

Name me last time you heard of a conservative Atheist. It however made somewhat sense in 1800s when it was added to criticize the flaws religious stuff could be in society. (But i love supression fetish to some level so i am weird that way?). But i do wonder if Atheism as a ideology, if that developed into socialism, interms of manipulative behavior etc?

Political commentator, George Will.  Conservative atheist.

[Szuchow]

I guess I'm not clear on why this is some kind of pejorative.

Countries that claimed to be socialist weren't exactly good places to live so using socialism as a slur is perfectly understandable to me.

After all, socialism is what lets you live comfortably in your parents' Wifi-enabled basement over there in Norway (if that  claim is true).

Norway isn't socialist as it isn't in a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism. Alternatively it isn't socialist because means of production, distribution, and exchange aren't owned by workers.
Lastly Norway isn't socialist because it isn't an Utopia as explained By Martin Malia in his book "History Locomotives" which I quote below: "All of which indicates that socialism is much more than an economic project or the logical product of industrial development. Indeed, enough has already been said to indicate that socialism is a total project, aiming as it does at transcending present society completely and creating a whole new world and a new man. In other words, socialism is not something that exists or has existed in the real world; it is a utopia".

Norway is  mix of welfare state with capitalist free market - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_mod...mic_system

Why are you, a Scandinavian, acting as though there's something nefarious about socialism?

Question of socialism in Norway aside I doubt that he is from there. Or he may be some clownish right winger with fuck-you-I've-got-mine attitude,

[Bucky Ball]

Yeah, charity does that to people in same creed. Again its socialist manipulation play book is all :
You conflate religious text with your ideology.

What charity?  What creed?  What socialist manipulation?

My question is. if you dont give a crap about religion? Then why try to manipulate Christians to think like you do in context to their religious books? Is Manipulation culture that important?

Posting and expressing a view is not (even) attempted manipulation.
It's nothing but expressing a view.

Someone who is obsessed with a view being "manipulation" has reveled how totally INTIMIDATED he is by differing views.
It is pathetic and sad to be SO ignorant of history, cultures, religions, economic facts, differing views etc, that one is AFRAID to hear about them, and sees them as "manipulation".

[Cavebear]

Name me last time you heard of a conservative Atheist. It however made somewhat sense in 1800s when it was added to criticize the flaws religious stuff could be in society. (But i love supression fetish to some level so i am weird that way?). But i do wonder if Atheism as a ideology, if that developed into socialism, interms of manipulative behavior etc?

Political commentator, George Will.  Conservative atheist.

I apologize for my previous posts. George Will says he is an atheist in several posts. And one thing I'm sure of is that he doesn't lie. I don't oftren agree with him, Who'ld have thunk?

[julep]

I guess I'm not clear on why this is some kind of pejorative.

Countries that claimed to be socialist weren't exactly good places to live so using socialism as a slur is perfectly understandable to me.

After all, socialism is what lets you live comfortably in your parents' Wifi-enabled basement over there in Norway (if that  claim is true).

Norway isn't socialist as it isn't in a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism. Alternatively it isn't socialist because means of production, distribution, and exchange aren't owned by workers.

Norway is  mix of welfare state with capitalist free market - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_mod...mic_system

Why are you, a Scandinavian, acting as though there's something nefarious about socialism?

Question of socialism in Norway aside I doubt that he is from there. Or he may be some clownish right winger with fuck-you-I've-got-mine attitude,

Norway conforms to the model of Scandinavian socialism, and if the poster in question is going to call leftists in the US and all left-leaning atheists socialists, I feel okay using this term.  In regard to the way "socialist" is used by conservatives in the US, Norway counts as a socialist country.  

I don't agree with the communist-based definition of socialism as a transitional state on the way to communism.  A fair number of European socialists seem to accept that there's an intermediate position between every means of production owned by workers and social supports provided by the welfare state, which are paid for by the citizens.   

If you can get your healthcare for free or near that, don't have to worry about starving to death or dying in a workhouse, can afford lodging, can get a good, free education that leads to a well-paying job, don't have to go broke paying for childcare, etc., because the government is paying for or subsidizing it, then--according to people in the US--you are living in a socialist system.  'Cause the robber barons don't have to worry about none of that shit.

[Alan V]

Someone who is obsessed with a view being "manipulation" has reveled how totally INTIMIDATED he is by differing views.
It is pathetic and sad to be SO ignorant of history, cultures, religions, economic facts, differing views etc, that one is AFRAID to hear about them, and sees them as "manipulation".

People who are paranoid about being manipulated usually already are.  You can tell because most of what they say contains loaded terminology and unquestioned assumptions.

[GenesisNemesis]

No.

[Cavebear]

No.

Yeah, I'm a socialist like bald is a hair color... I'm more somewhere between libertarian and communitarian. But there are only 2 parties to vote for.

[seaside]

Think Goldwater was a interesting guy, since he didnt like the religious right that happend during Reagen era. Or that abortion should be a personal issue and not a political issue. Which i agree with.

But that guy was sorta the father of modern conservatism in USA in a sense.

[Cavebear]

Think Goldwater was a interesting guy, since he didnt like the religious right that happend during Reagen era. Or that abortion should be a personal issue and not a political issue. Which i agree with.

But that guy was sorta the father of modern conservatism in USA in a sense.

Goldwater: “I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.”

He wouldn't get elected today... Stupid RINO!

[Thumpalumpacus]

There are plenty of misapprehensions about America, and atheism, in your postings, @seaside. I read on anyway, hoping to see if you'd listen to the Americans here.

Instead, you went with "mangina" and "manipulation culture".

[Vera]

"mangina"

I thought it was something like man flu or summat. The things you learn...

... without wanting to

[Cavebear]

There are plenty of misapprehensions about America, and atheism, in your postings, @seaside. I read on anyway, hoping to see if you'd listen to the Americans here.

Instead, you went with "mangina" and "manipulation culture".

"They" (isn't "they" wonderful?) are incapable of rational thought. I mean, "they" believe in a deity. I don't, so how can "they"?

I'll raise you a diety and meet you on a theist chip... LOL!

[Dancefortwo]

Name me last time you heard of a conservative Atheist. It however made somewhat sense in 1800s when it was added to criticize the flaws religious stuff could be in society. (But i love supression fetish to some level so i am weird that way?). But i do wonder if Atheism as a ideology, if that developed into socialism, interms of manipulative behavior etc?

Political commentator, George Will.  Conservative atheist.

I apologize for my previous posts.  George Will says he is an atheist in several posts.  And one thing I'm sure of is that he doesn't lie.  I don't oftren agree with him,   Who'ld have thunk?

One time I was reading a comment section which was discussing George Will.   I can't for the life of me remember where this was. It was a Christian leaning format somewhere on the internet.  Anyway, people were agreeing with George Will and his political views....well... up until one of the posters mentioned that he was an atheist. Suddenly these lovely Christians turned into wolves.  They attacked George Will as evil, disgusting and "of the devil".  There are probably many more conservative atheists than we think but they don't admit to it because they will be attacked by Christian conservatives and liberal atheists so they remain in the closet. 

Interesting topic from the Harvard Political Review:
https://harvardpolitics.com/conservative-atheists/

[Tres Leches]

I guess I'm not clear on why this is some kind of pejorative.  After all, socialism is what lets you live comfortably in your parents' Wifi-enabled basement over there in Norway (if that  claim is true). 

Does anyone actually believe this man or woman is in Norway?

-Teresa

[jerry mcmasters]

I'm still trying to get past "Mangina."

[Cavebear]

Political commentator, George Will.  Conservative atheist.

I apologize for my previous posts.  George Will says he is an atheist in several posts.  And one thing I'm sure of is that he doesn't lie.  I don't oftren agree with him,   Who'ld have thunk?

One time I was reading a comment section which was discussing George Will.   I can't for the life of me remember where this was. It was a Christian leaning format somewhere on the internet.  Anyway, people were agreeing with George Will and his political views....well... up until one of the posters mentioned that he was an atheist. Suddenly these lovely Christians turned into wolves.  They attacked George Will as evil, disgusting and "of the devil".  There are probably many more conservative atheists than we think but they don't admit to it because they will be attacked by Christian conservatives and liberal atheists so they remain in the closet. 

Interesting topic from the Harvard Political Review:
https://harvardpolitics.com/conservative-atheists/

Thank you for that. I knew an atheist dedicated to gun ownership (and use against government) once. It took some remembering...

[Bucky Ball]

No what i mean is Socialism and Atheism works hand in hand in manipulating people to think like them, aka they are manipulation culture. I think you have to convert to Christianity for you to take part in their community... which is not gonna happen :

You still have not defined socialism.
You have no evidence or data to show us atheism and socialism are even minimally related.
You have no evidence that anyone is "manipulated" into thinking anything.
I fully understand Christianity. I was born into it, and have studied religions far more than most.

All, as in EVERY single one, of your assertions have no evidence.
They are all nothing but "musings" totally based on ignorant and false assumptions.

[Cavebear]

No what i mean is Socialism and Atheism works hand in hand in manipulating people to think like them, aka they are manipulation culture. I think you have to convert to Christianity for you to take part in their community... which is not gonna happen :

You still have not defined socialism.
You have no evidence or data to show us atheism and socialism are even minimally related.
You have no evidence that anyone is "manipulated" into thinking anything.
I fully understand Christianity. I was born into it, and have studied religions far more than most.

All, as in EVERY single one, of your assertions have no evidence.
They are all nothing but "musings" totally based on ignorant and false assumptions.

I get your point, but if you were "born into it" you probably cant fully understand it.

Does 1 Corinthians 11:14 make any sense to you without looking it up. And looking it up, figure out any sense to it?



Just making a very small point... No one can make full sense out of any theistic book...

May your day be blest...

[trdsf]

I guess I'm not clear on why this is some kind of pejorative.  After all, socialism is what lets you live comfortably in your parents' Wifi-enabled basement over there in Norway (if that  claim is true). 

Does anyone actually believe this man or woman is in Norway?

-Teresa

From what I've read of their posts, they're more likely in Cloud Cuckooland.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm still trying to get past "Mangina."

I can't take anyone seriously when they write like that. Any argument reliant on pejorative is usually weak indeed. It also raises my suspicions about the poster's intent, as is the case here.

[Reltzik]

Name me last time you heard of a conservative Atheist. It however made somewhat sense in 1800s when it was added to criticize the flaws religious stuff could be in society. (But i love supression fetish to some level so i am weird that way?). But i do wonder if Atheism as a ideology, if that developed into socialism, interms of manipulative behavior etc?

So much wrong here... so just to pick a few highlights...

Conservative atheist?  Ayn Rand.  I heard about her two days ago for the umpteenth time and I'm sick of it.

But when (American) conservativsm veered headlong into performative Christian nationalism in the late 70s/early 80s, of course it wasn't going to bring many atheists with it.  That doesn't mean that there aren't atheists that aren't economically or socially conservative... it just means that they don't check all the boxes on the new, revised list of what it means to be a conservative in America.

Also "not conservative" doesn't automatically imply socialist.  The two are far from strictly synonymous.

Also-also, socialism has more roots in Christianity than in atheism.

Also-also-also.... nope, I've wasted enough time on this already.  Come back when you actually know what you're talking about.  (And no, right-wing propaganda straw-men don't count as knowledge.)

Saying Socialism has more root in Christianity is part of manipulation culture in USA.

... manipulation... culture... in... USA....  

As just one of MANY counterexamples that prove you wrong:  Arguably the foundational document of Utopian Socialism (one of many schools of socialism) was Saint Thomas More's Utopia.  Though it's debatable whether More was advocating for or parodying the idea, early socialist theorists took the idea and ran with it.  This was published 70 years before England even attempted to establish its first colony in the Americas.

But i think there was a parable of workers in The New Testament, some got paid more, and others got paid less for the same work. They agreed to the trade so they work for that money. Thats not socialist as far as i know? Where they believe in equal outcome.

There's a lot of different ways of reading the Bible, with different degrees of emphasis on different passages.  Christians can, did, and do vary wildly in interpretation of matters like whether (to name a few examples) the Bible allows, endorses, or condemns abortion, drug use, extreme wealth, monarchy or democracy, slavery, interest on loans, and (in this case) capitalism or socialism. Bucky's already cited one example that many left-wing Christians feel endorses a socialist attitude, even if other Christians feel differently.  So yes, a lot of early socialist thinkers DID root socialism in their Christianity, even as other Christians disagreed with them on the topic.

Also, not all versions of socialism believe in emphasizing an equality of outcome.  There might be some out there, but IIRC one of the key distinctions often drawn between communism and socialism is that communism emphasizes distribution (be it by government or not) of resources based need, and socialism based on contribution.  (Do you get more stuff based on how much you need for the stuff, or how much work you contribute to the task of producing stuff?  As opposed to capitalism, which is based on how much capital you have to pay for the stuff.)  None of those are equality of outcome, but rather outcome based on non-equal factors.  This is, again, a right-wing strawman.

I think the problem here is that the word "socialism" is being used by different people to refer to different ideas, producing a lot of ambiguity about what this person or that person means by the word.  I've encountered this a lot from the right, twisting and distorting words in such a way that makes having a conversation about the concepts behind the words impossible.  So rather than waste time in a pointless definition-debate over which one's the "correct" definition of socialism, let's just define a new type of socialism, of which, again, there are already several, including Christian Socialism, and note the dates of all those books published in England in the early 19th century rather than by modern... American... manipulation... nope, nope, that's bait, not chasing it down that rabbit hole...

... anyhow, back on topic.  Let's call this new type Seaside Socialism, to distinguish it from every other type of socialism, and it's defined by what you, Seaside, think socialism is.  It doesn't have to be something you believe in or advocate for, you can be (and apparently are) against it, but it does need to be clearly spelled out so that people can have any idea what you mean when you say the word, and it can't be conflated with other types of socialism unless we look at those other types and confirm their agreement with Seaside Socialism on the points relevant to the conversation.

So define Seaside Socialism.  What is it that YOU mean when you say the word?  Here, I'll get you started:

1. Belief in equality of outcomes.
   
2. ....?
   

[SYZ]

...But i do wonder if Atheism as a ideology, if that developed into socialism, in terms of manipulative behavior etc?

No.    End of story.

[Bucky Ball]

No what i mean is Socialism and Atheism works hand in hand in manipulating people to think like them, aka they are manipulation culture. I think you have to convert to Christianity for you to take part in their community... which is not gonna happen :

You still have not defined socialism.
You have no evidence or data to show us atheism and socialism are even minimally related.
You have no evidence that anyone is "manipulated" into thinking anything.
I fully understand Christianity. I was born into it, and have studied religions far more than most.

All, as in EVERY single one, of your assertions have no evidence.
They are all nothing but "musings" totally based on ignorant and false assumptions.

I get your point, but if you were "born into it" you probably cant fully understand it.

Does 1 Corinthians 11:14 make any sense to you without looking it up.  And looking it up, figure out any sense to it?



Just making a very small point...  No one can make full sense out of any theistic book...

May your day be blest...

I said I understand it, (in the sense *they* mean it). I didn't say *it made sense*.
They readily admit it.
Aquinas said anyone who says they understand the Trinity is lying.