Dear theists

[Percie]

No it isn't by itself, but it becomes that after they ascertain that I don't belong to any church, and they fail to convince me to join theirs despite repeat "invitations". Up until that point, they are quite friendly and sociable.

No, it still isn't force.

Just yesterday I received a hand written letter from my neighbor Gary (I don't know a neighbor named Gary, and very few people live out here). He went on about understanding that it's hard times, that I might find some comfort at such and such a website, and that such and such a local church would be happy to discuss it with me and help me out.

And that isn't force either.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

I don't think it's in the mindset of most theists to enforce their beliefs onto others. I think the vast majority of theists are well adjusted people who respect the boundaries of church and state. It's true that some of what they consider to be social norms are the result of their cultural upbringing, and anything else could be seen as abnormal and deviant. 

That depends on your environment and the people you meet, as well as your religion\non-religion.

Where I live, I am a pariah because I don't belong to a church. People won't befriend me if I don't join their church or already belong to another Christian church.

Not wanting to hang out with you isn't the same as trying to enforce their beliefs on you.

How incredibly naive. Making a pariah out of someone is not just a few people "not wanting to hang out." It's the result of an entire community shunning someone.

Of course, we all know all the good little christers are above such behaviors, especially in gawd fearing rural America.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

No it isn't by itself, but it becomes that after they ascertain that I don't belong to any church, and they fail to convince me to join theirs despite repeat "invitations". Up until that point, they are quite friendly and sociable.

No, it still isn't force.

Just yesterday I received a hand written letter from my neighbor Gary (I don't know a neighbor named Gary, and very few people live out here). He went on about understanding that it's hard times, that I might find some comfort at such and such a website, and that such and such a local church would be happy to discuss it with me and help me out.

And that isn't force either.

It's social coercion, which is an effort for force particular behavior.

[Percie]

OK, so you guys think that theists not being your friend is them forcing their beliefs on you... but we're the ones whose beliefs aren't grounded in reality. Got it!

[Dom]

No it isn't by itself, but it becomes that after they ascertain that I don't belong to any church, and they fail to convince me to join theirs despite repeat "invitations". Up until that point, they are quite friendly and sociable.

No, it still isn't force.

Just yesterday I received a hand written letter from my neighbor Gary (I don't know a neighbor named Gary, and very few people live out here). He went on about understanding that it's hard times, that I might find some comfort at such and such a website, and that such and such a local church would be happy to discuss it with me and help me out.

And that isn't force either.

No one has pulled a gun on me as yet, if that is what you mean. But it does mean that if I want to socialize, I need to come to the church. They come to my house to talk about Jesus too, my dog takes care of that for me. 

Add in that I am old and seen as an easy target and need to be convinced to tithe. Wait until you are old, all kinds of cons emerge from the woodwork.

[SYZ]

IOW, I'm a materialist and anyone who isn't is wrong.

Nope.  You've misunderstood this...

Yes, that's a materialist's position. What did I misunderstand?

Uh... Phaedrus was talking about your mindset not being
grounded in reality.     Which is, of course, perfectly true.

[Percie]

By that definition the reputation system on this site is an attempt to force beliefs on others.

[Dom]

By that definition the reputation system on this site is an attempt to force beliefs on others.

Huh? What is that a response to? What do you have to believe to give reputations?

[Percie]

Uh... Phaedrus was talking about your mindset not being
grounded in reality.     Which is, of course, perfectly true.

Sure, it's true from a materialist stance, but you can't prove that such a stance is reality. Plus, you have to explain away causal determinism, or your view is no better than any other.

[Percie]

Huh? What is that a response to? What do you have to believe to give reputations?

It's not what you have to believe to give reputations, it's what you need to believe to receive positive reputation.

[Inkubus]

Move to another state?  
Gee, why didn't someone think of that before?  

It's what I would do.  If you want to run for office but you don't appeal to your constituents, then you have to weigh out your options to secure a desirable outcome. It seems like the most practical solution to me. 

If you were born and brought up in Arizona and have a desire to represent the people of Arizona then why in hell would you move to New York? They don't know you and you don't know them.

[SYZ]

Just yesterday I received a hand written letter from my neighbor Gary (I don't know a neighbor named Gary, and very few people live out here). He went on about understanding that it's hard times, that I might find some comfort at such and such a website, and that such and such a local church would be happy to discuss it with me and help me out.

And that isn't force either.

Of course it is.  It doesn't have to be a kick in the gonads to be considered "force".
It's both an intrusion on someone's right to privacy and an invasion of their personal
space.  How dare Dom's theist neighbour have the conceit to believe that he has some
sort of "right" to do this kind of thing?

As an atheist, I would never  approach a theist (or anybody else) who was
unknown to me personally, with an entreaty to deconvert to atheism and/or any
religion.    And the sheer arrogance... the church would like to "help you out".

[Percie]

No one has pulled a gun on me as yet, if that is what you mean. But it does mean that if I want to socialize, I need to come to the church. woodwork.

And that's not forcing their beliefs on you. 

You're saying that people don't want to be your friend because you're different from them. Well, yeah, that's how friendship generally works. Look at the membership of this site - it's not representative of religious beliefs/non-beliefs around the world, nor should it be.

[Inkubus]

By that definition the reputation system on this site is an attempt to force beliefs on others.

I am not able rightly to apprehend the confusion of ideas that could provoke such a statement.

Nods: C. Babbage.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

No one has pulled a gun on me as yet, if that is what you mean. But it does mean that if I want to socialize, I need to come to the church. woodwork.

And that's not forcing their beliefs on you. 

You're saying that people don't want to be your friend because you're different from them. Well, yeah, that's how friendship generally works. Look at the membership of this site - it's not representative of religious beliefs/non-beliefs around the world, nor should it be.

Social coercion is force, whether you wish to believe it or not.

[Dom]

Huh? What is that a response to? What do you have to believe to give reputations?

It's not what you have to believe to give reputations, it's what you need to believe to receive positive reputation.

No, it's not. Look at Aliza's reputation. Being theist has nothing to do with it. How you present yourself does, whether people like you or not does. Whether you try to actually understand atheists does. Whether you take the time to actually get to know people does.

[Aliza]

Move to another state?  
Gee, why didn't someone think of that before?  

It's what I would do.  If you want to run for office but you don't appeal to your constituents, then you have to weigh out your options to secure a desirable outcome. It seems like the most practical solution to me. 

If you were born and brought up in Arizona and have a desire to represent the people of Arizona then why in hell would you move to New York? They don't know you and you don't know them.

 
The law cannot prevent an atheist from running and if it does, people need to change the law. If the law isn't the problem and it's just that the people of Arizona don't like the candidate -for whatever reason- then the candidate either needs to change themselves to be what the voters want, or they should try somewhere else.

If a candidate has some attribute that I don't like, then I don't vote for them. Sometimes that attribute is Christianity.... Sometimes I think a candidate's religious values are too out of whack for them to represent me. I don't give a shit about fairness. If I don't like them, then I don't vote for them no matter how much they love our shared city/state/region/whatever.

[Dom]

No one has pulled a gun on me as yet, if that is what you mean. But it does mean that if I want to socialize, I need to come to the church. woodwork.

And that's not forcing their beliefs on you. 

You're saying that people don't want to be your friend because you're different from them. Well, yeah, that's how friendship generally works. Look at the membership of this site - it's not representative of religious beliefs/non-beliefs around the world, nor should it be.

I am no different from them. The only difference is that they spend sundays in a church and I don't. 

And, our community here is pretty varied, from different parts of the world, different walks of life, different life philosophies, sexual orientations, races, what have you. You just haven't taken the time to get to know us as individuals. The diversity here is one of the reasons I like the place. I like that atheism has no dogma, each of us sees things differently.  It results in discussions that can get argumentative, but that is ok too.

[Inkubus]

It's what I would do.  If you want to run for office but you don't appeal to your constituents, then you have to weigh out your options to secure a desirable outcome. It seems like the most practical solution to me. 

If you were born and brought up in Arizona and have a desire to represent the people of Arizona then why in hell would you move to New York? They don't know you and you don't know them.

 
The law cannot prevent an atheist from running and if it does, people need to change the law. If the law isn't the problem and it's just that the people of Arizona don't like the candidate -for whatever reason- then the candidate either needs to change themselves to be what the voters want, or they should try somewhere else.

You fucking moron!
I'm done with this place. I'll take a look in a months time if its still here that is.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

If you were born and brought up in Arizona and have a desire to represent the people of Arizona then why in hell would you move to New York? They don't know you and you don't know them.

 
The law cannot prevent an atheist from running and if it does, people need to change the law. If the law isn't the problem and it's just that the people of Arizona don't like the candidate -for whatever reason- then the candidate either needs to change themselves to be what the voters want, or they should try somewhere else.

You fucking moron!
I'm done with this place. I'll take a look in a months time if its still here that is.

Wow. WTF?!?

Totally uncalled for.

[Dom]

If you were born and brought up in Arizona and have a desire to represent the people of Arizona then why in hell would you move to New York? They don't know you and you don't know them.

 
The law cannot prevent an atheist from running and if it does, people need to change the law. If the law isn't the problem and it's just that the people of Arizona don't like the candidate -for whatever reason- then the candidate either needs to change themselves to be what the voters want, or they should try somewhere else.

You fucking moron!
I'm done with this place. I'll take a look in a months time if its still here that is.

What is moronic here? If the people don't like someone for whatever reason, they won't vote for them. That is true, most votes are for personality and not agenda. If there is no law preventing you from running, and you run but don't win, the constituency doesn't like you, for whatever reason.

What are you going to do, force people to vote a certain way?

[adey67]

I personally don't have any problem with anyone believing whatever crazy shit makes them happy, want to believe in a flat earth, ghosts, spiritualism then knock yourself out the only time I have a problem with it is when people insist I or others need to believe it too or  if those beliefs negatively impact innocent others. I would also suggest that beliefs often if not always determine actions which isn't so bad if those beliefs are benign but pretty appalling when they're not eg: national socialism. Beliefs are the gate keepers of actions which is why it is so much better to believe as many things that are verifiabley  true.

[Percie]

I am no different from them. The only difference is that they spend sundays in a church and I don't.

What do they say about this website?

[adey67]

If you were born and brought up in Arizona and have a desire to represent the people of Arizona then why in hell would you move to New York? They don't know you and you don't know them.

 
The law cannot prevent an atheist from running and if it does, people need to change the law. If the law isn't the problem and it's just that the people of Arizona don't like the candidate -for whatever reason- then the candidate either needs to change themselves to be what the voters want, or they should try somewhere else.

You fucking moron!
I'm done with this place. I'll take a look in a months time if its still here that is.

Wtf man, what the fucking hell is wrong with you?

[Dom]

I am no different from them. The only difference is that they spend sundays in a church and I don't.

What do they say about this website?

Why would they come here? I didn't ask them to come here, why would I? I don't care what other people believe.