Encouraging News.

[Brian Shanahan]

If your census form question on religion is as loaded as ours then the numbers of none believers is likely much higher.

The legal regulations required to hold the next Census in England and Wales on 21 March 2021 have been passed into law, confirming that the leading question ‘What is your religion?’, which appeared in the 2011 and 2001 surveys, will again feature.

Humanists UK

Same here in Ireland, which is compounded by the mammy issue.  Quite a number of Irish younger adults still let their parents fill out their census forms back home, even if they themselves have left home for many years.  And all too often the proud Irish mammy still put's little Johnny down as a catlick, even though he's heavily denounced the church and won't step inside a chapel under pain of torture.

Going by the rcc's own internal statistics and polling, about ten years ago they were looking at Ireland being a country of (in reality) only 30% catholic population.

I wonder WTF "spiritual" means?

"I don't think about religion much. But when I do, to try not to get headaches, I imagine there' some vague guiding spirit."

It's easier than putting thought into it and frankly, in most cases it is little different of a result than somebody who's reasoned their way out of god belief.

[Vera]

If your census form question on religion is as loaded as ours then the numbers of none believers is likely much higher.


Which gives us the census form Christians who I hold in greater contempt than the creationists.

'What is your religion?' 'Hmm lets see, me mam was married in a church, so I must be a Christian.'

'Hay babe what's our religion?' 'Err, just put C of E.'

Why hasn't more of a fuss been made over this?
The Office For National Statistics are clearly dodgy as fuck on the question of religious belief so how can they be trusted?

I was thinking the other day (I know, I know - what *was* I thinking, trying to think!) that every time I meet a British person, I kinda assume they're not religious (so far I've only met one religious woman)...

...and yet, I came across this... pile of shit in The Guardian*:

How do faithless people like me make sense of this past year of Covid? Many of us yearn for meaning. But in our individualistic, secular society we lack even the flimsiest of narratives to guide us

"Like millions of other faithless people, I have not even the flimsiest of narratives to project on to what has happened, nor any real vocabulary with which to talk about the profundities of life and death. Beyond a handful of close friends and colleagues and my immediate family, there has been no community of like minds with whom I have talked about how I am feeling or ritualistically marked the passing of all these grinding weeks and months."

The comments *were* heartening but I was reminded of many a frustrating conversation I've had with an Irish dumbass I used to have as a neighbour for a while. Because apparently, we only have "community" because of religion and not, imagine that, religions which make use of our SOCIAL nature. And religions "providing community" is, apparently, a good enough reason for the continuation of a lie and often a harmful one, which *is* what religion is.

It's a bit along the same lines of the other argument that joke of person (my neighbour) used to make, that religion shapes morality and any changes in the general mindset of societies. As if religion were something outside of people and society. It's not that we got enlightenment, gathered more knowledge about the world, *evolved* as societies and DRAGGED religion to evolve with us. No, religion evolved all on its own and *that's* why we're living in possibly the most civilised (for lack of better word) times of our history.

(God, every time I'm reminded of all the crap I used to listen to - and take! - from that stunted little man I get so angry at myself. Oh well, lessons learnt and all that jazz I guess)




* I don't really read the guardian but occasionally, in a moment of bored weakness I drop by... and five minutes later feel like kicking myself in the teeth.

[Brian Shanahan]

If your census form question on religion is as loaded as ours then the numbers of none believers is likely much higher.


Which gives us the census form Christians who I hold in greater contempt than the creationists.

'What is your religion?' 'Hmm lets see, me mam was married in a church, so I must be a Christian.'

'Hay babe what's our religion?' 'Err, just put C of E.'

Why hasn't more of a fuss been made over this?
The Office For National Statistics are clearly dodgy as fuck on the question of religious belief so how can they be trusted?

I was thinking the other day (I know, I know - what *was* I thinking, trying to think!) that every time I meet a British person, I kinda assume they're not religious (so far I've only met one religious woman)...

...and yet, I came across this... pile of shit in The Guardian*:

How do faithless people like me make sense of this past year of Covid? Many of us yearn for meaning. But in our individualistic, secular society we lack even the flimsiest of narratives to guide us

"Like millions of other faithless people, I have not even the flimsiest of narratives to project on to what has happened, nor any real vocabulary with which to talk about the profundities of life and death. Beyond a handful of close friends and colleagues and my immediate family, there has been no community of like minds with whom I have talked about how I am feeling or ritualistically marked the passing of all these grinding weeks and months."

The comments *were* heartening but I was reminded of many a frustrating conversation I've had with an Irish dumbass I used to have as a neighbour for a while. Because apparently, we only have "community" because of religion and not, imagine that, religions which make use of our SOCIAL nature. And religions "providing community" is, apparently, a good enough reason for the continuation of a lie and often a harmful one, which *is* what religion is.

It's a bit along the same lines of the other argument that joke of person (my neighbour) used to make, that religion shapes morality and any changes in the general mindset of societies. As if religion were something outside of people and society. It's not that we got enlightenment, gathered more knowledge about the world, *evolved* as societies and DRAGGED religion to evolve with us. No, religion evolved all on its own *and* that's why we're living in possibly the most civilised (for lack of better word) times of our history.

(God, every time I'm reminded of all the crap I used to listen to - and take! - from that stunted little men I get so angry at myself. Oh well, lessons learnt and all that jazz I guess)




* I don't really read the guardian but occasionally, in a moment of bored weakness I drop by... and five minutes later feel like kicking myself in the teeth.

I had a rant about that very article in the Graun a few days ago over at AF.  The paper likes to hire writers who love penning "I'm an atheist, but christianity, it's the best!" type articles.  I remember their religion correspondent Andrew Browne used pen one every week.  Eventually I called him out on it directly and got banned for my troubles.  Browne really does not like people calling out the fact that he's a talentless hack.

[SYZ]

I note the cringe-worthy closure to your linked author's piece Vera...

"For many of us, life without God has turned out to be life without fellowship and shared
meaning—and in the midst of the most disorientating, debilitating crisis most of us have
ever known, that social tragedy now cries out for action."

What a load of absolute bullshit.    

Harris is obviously not an atheist, but a mere pretender.

[jerry mcmasters]

The big losers in this declining of traditional American religiosity are the established churches.  Clientele getting older and older and the youngsters either not going to church at all or choosing independent "Holy Rock of Feelin' Good" type joints.  My guess, anyway.

That is basically correct, it is the mainline, traditional denominations that are hurting the worst, although, as my brother points out, the happy-clappy ones are feeling the winds of change, too. They are perhaps just better at putting on a game face about it.

It is always tempting to assume the an aging demographic spells the end of an organization, but sometimes a staid environment like that stabilizes because it's appealing to an older and/or more affluent demographic, and as the oldest die off, younger ones "age in" to it to take their place.

Could be but I would expect to see more people in churches of middle age to take those spots, parents with youngsters and such.  Just anecdotal, but any time I see a neighborhood church letting out there's more shuffling, shambling, and slow movement than a George Romero movie.

[Minimalist]

I wonder WTF "spiritual" means?

It means people are getting embarrassed to say they believe in a god thought up by a bunch of camel jockeys back before iron was a thing. Half-stepping away from that primitive shit.

I think we have a winner!

[Szuchow]

I note the cringe-worthy closure to your linked author's piece Vera...

"For many of us, life without God has turned out to be life without fellowship and shared
meaning—and in the midst of the most disorientating, debilitating crisis most of us have
ever known, that social tragedy now cries out for action."

What a load of absolute bullshit.    

Harris is obviously not an atheist, but a mere pretender.

Pretender? Atheism only means absence of belief in god not that one have anything of worth to say. One easily can be atheist and believe some dumb shit.

[Vera]

I had a rant about that very article in the Graun a few days ago over at AF.  The paper likes to hire writers who love penning "I'm an atheist, but christianity, it's the best!" type articles.  I remember their religion correspondent Andrew Browne used pen one every week.  Eventually I called him out on it directly and got banned for my troubles.  Browne really does not like people calling out the fact that he's a talentless hack.

Heh, I went and read it (the rant I mean). Spot on.

I can't help but wonder though, if it's some sort of British (and Irish) thing, this insistence from supposedly non-religious people that religion has mostly been a force for good *and* we pretty much only have community because of it. I haven't quite heard this "argument" from other people but my sample size is too small.

It's along the same, mightily frustrating, cart before horses were even domesticated, lines of saying that without religion (usually Xtianity) we wouldn't have had Bach or amazing architecture or other great works of art. No, you dumbass, without religion, Bach would have composed music about something else, whatever was as important as religion, sadly, has been. If we'd "worshipped" knowledge, instead of superstitions, maybe we would have great libraries and museums now, not great cathedrals.

Either way, we have great art (mediocre too, but who gives a shit about it ) because the desire for artistic expression, the impulse to create, are something innate and people have been doing it ever since they could slap the palm of their hand on a cave wall. Same about community. No religion needed.

Religion hijacks things, both good and bad, that are already part of who we are, it does not, never has and never will create them.

[Szuchow]

I had a rant about that very article in the Graun a few days ago over at AF.  The paper likes to hire writers who love penning "I'm an atheist, but christianity, it's the best!" type articles.  I remember their religion correspondent Andrew Browne used pen one every week.  Eventually I called him out on it directly and got banned for my troubles.  Browne really does not like people calling out the fact that he's a talentless hack.

Heh, I went and read it (the rant I mean). Spot on.

I can't help but wonder though, if it's some sort of British (and Irish) thing, this insistence from supposedly non-religious people that religion has mostly been a force for good *and* we pretty much only have community because of it. I haven't quite heard this "argument" from other people but my sample size is too small.

It's along the same, mightily frustrating, cart before horses were even domesticated, lines of saying that without religion (usually Xtianity) we wouldn't have had Bach or amazing architecture or other great works of art. No, you dumbass, without religion, Bach would have composed music about something else, whatever was as important as religion, sadly, has been. If we'd "worshipped" knowledge, instead of superstitions, maybe we would have great libraries and museums now, not great cathedrals.

Either way, we have great art (mediocre too, but who gives a shit about it ) because the desire for artistic expression, the impulse to create, are something innate and people have been doing it ever since they could slap the palm of their hand on a cave wall. Same about community. No religion needed.

Religion hijacks things, both good and bad, that are already part of who we are, it does not, never has and never will create them.

Supposed liberal Adam Michnik says almost the same shit - according to him Poles must have church, otherwise nihilism will reign. Frankly I find it to be even more pathetic than Dostoyevsky crap about everything being allowed if there is no god. I wonder how supposedly educated man can believe that slavish obedience to criminal, totalitarian and misogynist institution coupled with worship of genocidal deity could be a good thing?

[Dancefortwo]

I wonder WTF "spiritual" means?

Spiritual means that people still believe in magical stuff like a soul that you can't see or touch, smell or feel.  Scientists haven't been able to find a soul or spirit but that doesn't stop people believing spirits exist.  Scientists can find neutrinos, the smallest subatomic particle with a mass close to zero .   Trillions of them pass through our bodies every second yet scientists can't seem to find a "spirit" anywhere in the human body or find them wafting around in the air anywhere. 

When I've told people I'm an atheist sometimes the response is...."But you're still spiritual though, aren't you?"  Like it's the last best hope they have for atheists.  They need you to believe in something magical so they feel more comfortable being near you.

[Minimalist]

I'm really sick of superstitious assholes, D42.  But you gave a pretty good answer.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I wonder WTF "spiritual" means?

"I don't think about religion much.  But when I do, to try not to get headaches, I imagine there' some vague guiding spirit."

It's easier than putting thought into it and frankly, in most cases it is little different of a result than somebody who's reasoned their way out of god belief.

It allows them to pinball around with whatever is currently the woo de jour. They still don't have to think about it and they can claim "That's what I believed all along!"when Cthulhu turns out to be the real god of the universe.

[Fireball]

My two eldest sons are atheists. They don't visit atheist websites or do anything in the community that pushes it, or for that matter, even discuss it in general. It has caused my eldest son some advancement issues in the Air Force, but once out of the training school, he's evaded it. He also lives off base when possible to avoid chuckleheads coming through the common room and rounding people up for religious crap. When the dorks out rank you, it's hard to just tell them, "No!".

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My two eldest sons are atheists. They don't visit atheist websites or do anything in the community that pushes it, or for that matter, even discuss it in general. It has caused my eldest son some advancement issues in the Air Force, but once out of the training school, he's evaded it. He also lives off base when possible to avoid chuckleheads coming through the common room and rounding people up for religious crap. When the dorks out rank you, it's hard to just tell them, "No!".

I told them no, they believed me after I whoopped up on a persistent god-botherer. While I was active duty I said "I'm not religious enough to call myself an atheist."

[Vera]

Supposed liberal Adam Michnik says almost the same shit - according to him Poles must have church, otherwise nihilism will reign. Frankly I find it to be even more pathetic than Dostoyevsky crap about everything being allowed if there is no god. I wonder how supposedly educated man can believe that slavish obedience to criminal, totalitarian and misogynist institution coupled with worship of genocidal deity could be a good thing?

Education doesn't mean much in and of itself, sadly. Also, Dostoevsky was full of so much shit (and no, the "Balkan Slavs" have never wanted and will never want to join the Russian Empire, you chauvinistic jerk) and a crappy human being in general, I'm guessing he knew the things *he*'d do if he hadn't "found Christ".

Frankly, I have zero respect, intellectual or otherwise, for anyone who can say "even if someone were to prove to me that the truth lay outside Christ, I should choose to remain with Christ rather than with the truth."

Spiritual means that people still believe in magical stuff like a soul that you can't see or touch, smell or feel.  Scientists haven't been able to find a soul or spirit but that doesn't stop people believing spirits exist.  Scientists can find neutrinos, the smallest subatomic particle with a mass close to zero .   Trillions of them pass through our bodies every second yet scientists can't seem to find a "spirit" anywhere in the human body or find them wafting around in the air anywhere. 

When I've told people I'm an atheist sometimes the response is...."But you're still spiritual though, aren't you?"  Like it's the last best hope they have for atheists.  They need you to believe in something magical so they feel more comfortable being near you.

Once again, Greg Egan says it best: "nothing offends me more than the pathological assignment of meaning - religion, astrology, superstitions of every kind"

Frankly, at a certain level, I find "spirituality" even more intellectually offensive than religion. I can somehow understand growing up into a religion and being basically brainwashed, I can understand gathering conviction in your delusion from the sheer number of other people who share the same delusion. Making a whole bunch of feel-good, ain't-I-the-specialest-little-thing-there-ever-lived-in-a-universe-that-cares-specifically-and-exclusively-about-ME mumbo-jumbo? Fuck this noise, it doesn't get much more stupid, egotistical and childish.

The universe and life are more amazing that we're probably ever going to grasp (some - much less than others) and yet, we keep insisting there be fairies at the bottom of the garden. Pathetic.

[Szuchow]

Education doesn't mean much in and of itself, sadly. Also, Dostoevsky was full of so much shit (and no, the "Balkan Slavs" have never wanted and will never want to join the Russian Empire, you chauvinistic jerk) and a crappy human being in general, I'm guessing he knew the things *he*'d do if he hadn't "found Christ".

Looking on polish gov I have no choice but to agree with your statement about education. Still it's just painful when people given opportunities that others didn't necessarily had spread such bullshit.

Frankly, I have zero respect, intellectual or otherwise, for anyone who can say "even if someone were to prove to me that the truth lay outside Christ, I should choose to remain with Christ rather than with the truth."

I don't have much respect for religious people in general. If I that is someone from shitty, religious country with populace afraid of books could have left religion then there is not much excuse for others.

[Vera]

Looking on polish gov I have no choice but to agree with your statement about education. Still it's just painful when people given opportunities that others didn't necessarily had spread such bullshit

I've ranted many a time that there's never been a time where so much knowledge has been so widely available to so many people... and yet, so many people willingly and proudly choose unabashed (and often malicious) ignorance. We know more about the world than ever before... and more and more people choose to create their own childish, made-up world.

Would make my blood boil if I still thought we deserve to continue polluting this beautiful planet.

(Hint: We don't.)

[Szuchow]

Looking on polish gov I have no choice but to agree with your statement about education. Still it's just painful when people given opportunities that others didn't necessarily had spread such bullshit

I've ranted many a time that there's never been a time where so much knowledge has been so widely available to so many people... and yet, so many people willingly and proudly choose unabashed (and often malicious) ignorance. We know more about the world than ever before... and more and more people choose to create their own childish, made-up world.

Would make my blood boil if I still thought we deserve to continue polluting this beautiful planet.

(Hint: We don't.)

Things hardly can look different when school system [in Poland at least] does it best to kill all creativity and longing for knowledge. When one add parents that don't give a shit about instilling positive habits, like reading then ignorance of general populace is easily explainable if still painful to watch.

[SYZ]

Republicans in some states have pursued extreme “Christian nationalist” policies, attempting to force
their version of Christianity on an increasingly uninterested public. This week the governor of Arkansas
signed a law allowing doctors to refuse to treat LGBTQ people on religious grounds, and other states
are exploring similar legislation.

Among other groups Gallup reported, the decline in church membership stands out among self-identified
Democrats and independents. The number of Democratic church members dropped by 25% over the 20
year period 2000 to 2020, with independents decreasing by 18%. Republican church members declined
too, but only by 12%.

Professor David Campbell, chair of the University of Notre Dame’s political science department said a
reason for the decline among those groups is political—an "allergic reaction to the religious right".
Young people are especially allergic to the perception that many American religions are hostile to
LGBTQ rights he said.

Christian nationalists who believe America was established as, and should remain a Christian country,
have pushed a range of measures to thrust their version of religion into American life. In Louisiana,
Arkansas and Florida, Republicans have introduced legislation which would variously hack away at
LGTBQ rights, reproductive rights, challenge the ability of couples to adopt children, and see religion
forced into classrooms. Montana is passing a law which would allow people or businesses to discriminate,
based on religion, against the LGBTQ community.

Alison Gill, VP for legal and policy at American Atheists said the US "perceives itself to be a predominantly
religious society, even if the facts no longer agree.   Politicians often feel beholden to pronounce their
religious faith—and are attacked for a perceived lack of it".

—Excerpted from The Guardian Australia, 5 April 21.

[Dom]

Republicans in some states have pursued extreme “Christian nationalist” policies, attempting to force
their version of Christianity on an increasingly uninterested public. This week the governor of Arkansas
signed a law allowing doctors to refuse to treat LGBTQ people on religious grounds, and other states
are exploring similar legislation.

Among other groups Gallup reported, the decline in church membership stands out among self-identified
Democrats and independents. The number of Democratic church members dropped by 25% over the 20
year period 2000 to 2020, with independents decreasing by 18%. Republican church members declined
too, but only by 12%.

Professor David Campbell, chair of the University of Notre Dame’s political science department said a
reason for the decline among those groups is political—an "allergic reaction to the religious right".
Young people are especially allergic to the perception that many American religions are hostile to
LGBTQ rights he said.

Christian nationalists who believe America was established as, and should remain a Christian country,
have pushed a range of measures to thrust their version of religion into American life. In Louisiana,
Arkansas and Florida, Republicans have introduced legislation which would variously hack away at
LGTBQ rights, reproductive rights, challenge the ability of couples to adopt children, and see religion
forced into classrooms. Montana is passing a law which would allow people or businesses to discriminate,
based on religion, against the LGBTQ community.

Alison Gill, VP for legal and policy at American Atheists said the US "perceives itself to be a predominantly
religious society, even if the facts no longer agree.   Politicians often feel beholden to pronounce their
religious faith—and are attacked for a perceived lack of it".

—Excerpted from The Guardian Australia, 5 April 21.

All this "refusal to serve" by businesses will just result in them being more marginalized by the increasingly non-religious customers, as well as the liberal ones. It'll come to bite them in the ass.

[TheGentlemanBastard]

Republicans in some states have pursued extreme “Christian nationalist” policies, attempting to force
their version of Christianity on an increasingly uninterested public. This week the governor of Arkansas
signed a law allowing doctors to refuse to treat LGBTQ people on religious grounds, and other states
are exploring similar legislation.

Among other groups Gallup reported, the decline in church membership stands out among self-identified
Democrats and independents. The number of Democratic church members dropped by 25% over the 20
year period 2000 to 2020, with independents decreasing by 18%. Republican church members declined
too, but only by 12%.

Professor David Campbell, chair of the University of Notre Dame’s political science department said a
reason for the decline among those groups is political—an "allergic reaction to the religious right".
Young people are especially allergic to the perception that many American religions are hostile to
LGBTQ rights he said.

Christian nationalists who believe America was established as, and should remain a Christian country,
have pushed a range of measures to thrust their version of religion into American life. In Louisiana,
Arkansas and Florida, Republicans have introduced legislation which would variously hack away at
LGTBQ rights, reproductive rights, challenge the ability of couples to adopt children, and see religion
forced into classrooms. Montana is passing a law which would allow people or businesses to discriminate,
based on religion, against the LGBTQ community.

Alison Gill, VP for legal and policy at American Atheists said the US "perceives itself to be a predominantly
religious society, even if the facts no longer agree.   Politicians often feel beholden to pronounce their
religious faith—and are attacked for a perceived lack of it".

—Excerpted from The Guardian Australia, 5 April 21.

All this "refusal to serve" by businesses will just result in them being more marginalized by the increasingly non-religious customers, as well as the liberal ones. It'll come to bite them in the ass.

Eventually...

Right now, the asshole baker here in Colorado who's been in the news so many times for discriminating against the LGBTQ community now owns one of the most popular bakeries in Colorado.

[Dom]

Republicans in some states have pursued extreme “Christian nationalist” policies, attempting to force
their version of Christianity on an increasingly uninterested public. This week the governor of Arkansas
signed a law allowing doctors to refuse to treat LGBTQ people on religious grounds, and other states
are exploring similar legislation.

Among other groups Gallup reported, the decline in church membership stands out among self-identified
Democrats and independents. The number of Democratic church members dropped by 25% over the 20
year period 2000 to 2020, with independents decreasing by 18%. Republican church members declined
too, but only by 12%.

Professor David Campbell, chair of the University of Notre Dame’s political science department said a
reason for the decline among those groups is political—an "allergic reaction to the religious right".
Young people are especially allergic to the perception that many American religions are hostile to
LGBTQ rights he said.

Christian nationalists who believe America was established as, and should remain a Christian country,
have pushed a range of measures to thrust their version of religion into American life. In Louisiana,
Arkansas and Florida, Republicans have introduced legislation which would variously hack away at
LGTBQ rights, reproductive rights, challenge the ability of couples to adopt children, and see religion
forced into classrooms. Montana is passing a law which would allow people or businesses to discriminate,
based on religion, against the LGBTQ community.

Alison Gill, VP for legal and policy at American Atheists said the US "perceives itself to be a predominantly
religious society, even if the facts no longer agree.   Politicians often feel beholden to pronounce their
religious faith—and are attacked for a perceived lack of it".

—Excerpted from The Guardian Australia, 5 April 21.

All this "refusal to serve" by businesses will just result in them being more marginalized by the increasingly non-religious customers, as well as the liberal ones. It'll come to bite them in the ass.

Eventually...

Right now, the asshole baker here in Colorado who's been in the news so many times for discriminating against the LGBTQ community now owns one of the most popular bakeries in Colorado.

He got a ton of free advertising. The more cases there are, the less advertising they get, the less profit in it. Eventually it will be up to the majority of the people around them.

Or protesters in front of their businesses. A lot of people avoid walking through protesters.

[airportkid]

More on the trend from fivethirtyeight

[Minimalist]

The practical results of the trend.

https://auburnpub.com/news/local/catholi...-top-story

Catholic churches in Auburn, northern Cayuga County to close

The committee began by studying the factors that led Matano to ask for the plan, including the decline of local church attendance. American church membership dropped below 50% for the first time in at least eight decades last year, according to a recent Gallup poll, and social distancing during the COVID-19 pandemic is expected to accelerate that decline. The committee also studied Cayuga County's steadily decreasing population, demographic shifts, financial trends and priest availability. The nine churches share two pastors, the Revs. Frank Lioi and John G. Gathenya, and their assistants.

By all means, convert them to some useful purpose.... like a Starbucks..... or a cat house.... or a medical marijuana dispensary.

Even better, knock them down, haul away the rubble and plant trees.

[Fireball]

Maybe the Vatican could roll some money back down to the local parishes for their use.