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[Serious] Singing the N-word
#51

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(02-13-2021, 08:04 AM)SYZ Wrote:
(02-12-2021, 09:07 PM)Josiah Aberhard Wrote: I will never tell a person of color what should or shouldn't be considered racist. I will leave that up to them. I will never tell someone when they should or shouldn't be offended by something that I don't think should be offensive. I will leave that up to them and won't invalidate their feelings...

Well, gee... that's all very generous of you.

Ya know...I always wanna be liked by my fellow humans.  Big Grin
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#52

[Serious] Singing the N-word
Dead Kennedys Wrote:So, you've been to school for a year or two
And you know you've seen it all
In daddy's car, thinking you'll go far
Back east your type don't crawl

Playing ethnicky jazz to parade your snazz
On your five-grand stereo
Braggin' that you know, how the niggers feel cold
And the slums got so much soul


Jello Biafra/John Greenway 
May 1980 Cherry Red Records
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#53

[Serious] Singing the N-word
Bob Dylan Wrote:All of Rubin's cards were marked in advance
The trial was a pig-circus, he never had a chance
The judge made Rubin's witnesses drunkards from the slums
To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum

And to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger
No one doubted that he pulled the trigger
And though they could not produce the gun
The D.A. said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed
Rubin Carter was falsely tried...

Hurricane - Jacques Levy / Bob Dylan
November 1975
Columbia Records
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#54

[Serious] Singing the N-word
"I'll have you know my mother was Dutch."
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
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#55

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(05-12-2021, 11:43 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
Dead Kennedys Wrote:So, you've been to school for a year or two
And you know you've seen it all
In daddy's car, thinking you'll go far
Back east your type don't crawl

Playing ethnicky jazz to parade your snazz
On your five-grand stereo
Braggin' that you know, how the niggers feel cold
And the slums got so much soul


Jello Biafra/John Greenway 
May 1980 Cherry Red Records

(05-12-2021, 11:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
Bob Dylan Wrote:All of Rubin's cards were marked in advance
The trial was a pig-circus, he never had a chance
The judge made Rubin's witnesses drunkards from the slums
To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum

And to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger
No one doubted that he pulled the trigger
And though they could not produce the gun
The D.A. said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed
Rubin Carter was falsely tried...

Hurricane - Jacques Levy / Bob Dylan
November 1975
Columbia Records

Art is about context.
On hiatus.
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#56

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(05-12-2021, 10:43 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-12-2021, 11:43 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
Dead Kennedys Wrote:So, you've been to school for a year or two
And you know you've seen it all
In daddy's car, thinking you'll go far
Back east your type don't crawl

Playing ethnicky jazz to parade your snazz
On your five-grand stereo
Braggin' that you know, how the niggers feel cold
And the slums got so much soul


Jello Biafra/John Greenway 
May 1980 Cherry Red Records

(05-12-2021, 11:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
Bob Dylan Wrote:All of Rubin's cards were marked in advance
The trial was a pig-circus, he never had a chance
The judge made Rubin's witnesses drunkards from the slums
To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum

And to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger
No one doubted that he pulled the trigger
And though they could not produce the gun
The D.A. said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed
Rubin Carter was falsely tried...

Hurricane - Jacques Levy / Bob Dylan
November 1975
Columbia Records

Art is about context.


Big difference between that and, for example, my father saying my brother would be "buttfucked by the n-words" in prison (which by the way I just learned a week ago about my father).
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” -Carl Sagan.
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#57

[Serious] Singing the N-word
I will never use the term " N - Word "
There's a difference using any word in context and using it as a slur
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#58

[Serious] Singing the N-word
"A Man Spit On My Toddler And Called Her The N-Word. It Changed How I Understand America"

I thought this was ridiculous Hurtful or not erasing words is censorship The F word ,The N word, The R wod

It's like learning a whole new vocabulary MF
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#59

[Serious] Singing the N-word
On the news
Juror said defendant was an n-word  who should be lynched

Juror recalls racist slur used by another juror during Jones' trial

Juror: One of the jurors, "well they should just take the n-word out back,shoot him , and bury him under the jail.
 Juror: it didn't matter what happen. this was a black man that was on trial for murder . He did it.

Words are more than just letters , in some cases they lose their impact if they're substituted .

In this case the hate and disgusting racism is subdued especially in this setting. This is a jury and a man's life is on the line.
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#60

[Serious] Singing the N-word
To be honest, I have never fully understood the tendency of oppressed peoples to appropriate derogatory terms for themselves. There's even a technical term linguists use for this: "linguistic reclamation". Another example is queer for the LGBTQ community. I get it on one level -- take a slur and transcend it. But these ugly slurs remain ugly and have a historical context that we can't un-know once we know it. It makes the use of these terms by minorities seem like a reflection of self-loathing almost, and it inevitably dilutes the disgust we all ought to feel at the original meanings. And then you get these weird pissing contests where it's okay for insiders to use the ugly slur in a supposedly positive or ironic fashion but it's not okay for outsiders to use it in the same way. To me such things just take a complex world and make it even more complicated.

(As an aside, though, I'd point out that heterosexuals can use the adjective 'queer' without problem; the term has been sufficiently "reclaimed", apparently, that we have "queer studies programs" in universities without anyone being offended by it.).

Personally I avoid all those words like the plague and what minorities want to do with them is their business. I don't feel it unjust that I don't "get to" use those words. I don't even feel the slightest indigestion that POCs get to decide what words won't offend them if I use them. It's just not that big a deal. But it would be a simpler world if everyone could be a little more gracious and tolerant, in all directions, with all words.
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#61

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-19-2021, 03:38 AM)mordant Wrote: To be honest, I have never fully understood the tendency of oppressed peoples to appropriate derogatory terms for themselves. There's even a technical term linguists use for this: "linguistic reclamation". Another example is queer for the LGBTQ community. I get it on one level -- take a slur and transcend it. But these ugly slurs remain ugly and have a historical context that we can't un-know once we know it. It makes the use of these terms by minorities seem like a reflection of self-loathing almost, and it inevitably dilutes the disgust we all ought to feel at the original meanings. And then you get these weird pissing contests where it's okay for insiders to use the ugly slur in a supposedly positive or ironic fashion but it's not okay for outsiders to use it in the same way. To me such things just take a complex world and make it even more complicated.

(As an aside, though, I'd point out that heterosexuals can use the adjective 'queer' without problem; the term has been sufficiently "reclaimed", apparently, that we have "queer studies programs" in universities without anyone being offended by it.).

Personally I avoid all those words like the plague and what minorities want to do with them is their business. I don't feel it unjust that I don't "get to" use those words. I don't even feel the slightest indigestion that POCs get to decide what words won't offend them if I use them. It's just not that big a deal. But it would be a simpler world if everyone could be a little more gracious and tolerant, in all directions, with all words.

Context is what gives words meaning. I could say "right", short and sweet, and you'll understand that I'm agreeing with you. I could say "riiiiight", long and drawled, and you'll know the sarcastic intent. In the same way, minorities of any stripe have regularly reappropriated slurs, knowing that context will inform the real meaning of the word.
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#62

[Serious] Singing the N-word
Context for sure makes the word. There needs to be more open discussion between the minorities . The minorities will listen to people they respect . These issues will never be solved kept in the dark .
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#63

[Serious] Singing the N-word
I'd seen this thread when it first came up & waited for someone to post this particular song but, I suppose it's been forgotten about.
Interesting people usually think about interesting things which impact the world.

Woman is the nigger of the world
Yes she is, think about it
Woman is the nigger of the world
Think about it, do something about it

We make her paint her face and dance
If she won't be a slave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
While putting her down we pretend that she is above us
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Ah yeah, better scream about it

We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
We tell her home is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Oh woman is the slave to the slaves
Yeah, alright

We insult her everyday on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be free
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Yes she is, if you believe me, you better scream about it

We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance

~ John Lennon / Yoko Ono

To be clear ...


Here's the song, if you want to have a listen ...


Context. Shy
________________________________________________
A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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#64

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-19-2021, 03:38 AM)mordant Wrote: To be honest, I have never fully understood the tendency of oppressed peoples to appropriate derogatory terms for themselves. There's even a technical term linguists use for this: "linguistic reclamation". Another example is queer for the LGBTQ community. I get it on one level -- take a slur and transcend it. But these ugly slurs remain ugly and have a historical context that we can't un-know once we know it. It makes the use of these terms by minorities seem like a reflection of self-loathing almost, and it inevitably dilutes the disgust we all ought to feel at the original meanings. And then you get these weird pissing contests where it's okay for insiders to use the ugly slur in a supposedly positive or ironic fashion but it's not okay for outsiders to use it in the same way. To me such things just take a complex world and make it even more complicated.

(As an aside, though, I'd point out that heterosexuals can use the adjective 'queer' without problem; the term has been sufficiently "reclaimed", apparently, that we have "queer studies programs" in universities without anyone being offended by it.).

Personally I avoid all those words like the plague and what minorities want to do with them is their business. I don't feel it unjust that I don't "get to" use those words. I don't even feel the slightest indigestion that POCs get to decide what words won't offend them if I use them. It's just not that big a deal. But it would be a simpler world if everyone could be a little more gracious and tolerant, in all directions, with all words.

I understand what you mean (I am big about freedom of speech so hey anybody say what you want no matter how hurtful) but would prefer if there were more universal agreement for all of us.  Certain words should just be put in the dustbin for everyone, because it causes confusion when used as you say in a "reclamation" way for some but are off-limits for others.  The "others" (whites) should know why it's off limits for them, but young people of all stripes want to fit in, to sling lingo, to say something risky but maybe cool.  And that never works out well. By dancing with the N word at all, any of us, it's nothing but trouble.  The n word was the last word many black people heard as they were hanged or burned to death, and they would have heard it yelled at them in anger.  Maybe many "reclamationists" themselves don't understand that well enough.  We should have a mutual agreement as all people that its origins are hateful enough that we will all retire it.
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#65

[Serious] Singing the N-word
you can't retire words. Dago ,wap , wet back , chink ,slant ,slope, harpy,limey ,kike , towel head etc. will never be retired.

As long as people are willing to use these words they'll exist .
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#66

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-20-2021, 02:48 AM)Antonio Wrote: you can't retire words. Dago ,wap , wet back , chink ,slant ,slope,  harpy,limey ,kike , towel head etc. will never be retired.

As long as people are willing to use these words they'll exist .
It is an object of some fascination to me that "queer" and "gay" have truly been transcended, apparently, to the point that I could mention that one of my wife's major clients is queer (or, certainly, gay) and no one would pearl-clutch about it, whereas the n-word is different. Maybe it's the way the community uses the term. If the gay community refers to itself with those terms in a way that invites usage by one and all, that's one thing. The n-word is not used in that way; it's been reserved as more of an insider term for "brother" in the sense of "someone whose lived experience is just like mine". It has not been fully embraced for general usage in the same way that "queer" and "gay" have. And so it has not been de-fused as well. It is not my business to judge or second-guess that. I just respect it.

The black community in general seems particularly sensitive to cultural appropriation, unwanted / unsolicited 'advice' and the like, to the point that their natural allies are sometimes put off by it. I live in a community where BLM is a big deal but in general, the black community here has made it clear that non-black allies need not apply -- leave them alone to do their thing, otherwise you're just being a self-guilt-assuaging do-gooder who doesn't really "get it". If we really want to attend their rallies or protests, just quietly support them, don't join in active protest or speaking up. Here again ... that's their choice, I don't get to judge or second-guess it. I will say, there are a lot of aspects of black culture where whites trying to participate just make themselves look silly. The stilted attempts at 'happy-clappy' music in white evangelical churches is a great example. My wife is quite 'street', having been raised in Berkeley and being in the second wave of early forced-bussing programs as a grade school child, and knows first-hand how hilarious POCs think we whites are in that regard. I take her word for it; she finds it mirthful herself. She nearly pee'd herself with suppressed laughter, attending a Presbyterian church in support of her daughter's then-interest in such things, when she witnessed the stilted and rhythm-less jerkings of white people attempting expressive 'gospel' music.

All in all, I just steer completely clear of all of this inter-cultural stuff; it seems like a mine field of potential faux-pas. It's just as well, as I'm an introvert anyway.
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#67

[Serious] Singing the N-word
Kinda offtopic, but the word “ally” always leaves a touch of white-saviour, condescending taste in my mouth. And I’m pretty sure I’ve read articles about those same people who us, noble allies are saving, not particularly liking it either.

A bit like the whole latinx fiasco, where I’ve certainly read that a lot of “latin” people ain’t too keen on white, English-speaking do-gooders trying to tell them how to speak their own language better.

As for the so called n-word (and no, as a complete – and white – outsider, I think it’s ridiculous to avoid the word when used in articles and the like), I’ll never forget what one of my most favourite people here, tomilay (himself an African-American) once said, either here or on TTA (I’m paraphrasing probably):

“I’d rather someone call me “nigger”, than call me “sir” while they’re tying the noose around my neck.”

Make of this what you will.

(I’m also kinda drunkish right not, so make of this what you will also.  hobo )
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#68

[Serious] Singing the N-word
As I've probably said elsewhere, I find it amusing that Americans write nigger as "the N-word"
when of course it's patently obvious what they mean, or to whom they're referring.  We also
seem unperturbed by seeing "cunt" or "fuck" in our newspapers, but I don't recall ever seeing
those two in The New York Times.   I could be wrong?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#69

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-22-2021, 05:51 PM)SYZ Wrote: As I've probably said elsewhere, I find it amusing that Americans write nigger as "the N-word"
when of course it's patently obvious what they mean, or to whom they're referring.  We also
seem unperturbed by seeing "cunt" or "fuck" in our newspapers, but I don't recall ever seeing
those two in The New York Times.   I could be wrong?

Nigger has a linguistic history. Western Europe had racist ideas, so really dark-skinned people were named after Roman word for dark. The classification was "Negroid" for that reason.

Southern US people kept British accent for a while, but accents changed over time. "Negro" became "Nigra" and finally "Nigger".

None of this engages the slavery and racism and racist contempt that occurred of course, but I wanted to mention the evolution of the term since it came up.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#70

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-22-2021, 06:15 PM)Cavebear Wrote: ...None of this engages the slavery and racism and racist contempt that occurred of course,  but I wanted to mention the evolution of the term since it came up.

Yes, we had a similar issue here in Australia, coincidentally courtesy of the British.
Up until the late 1960s it was perfectly okay to call our Aboriginal people "abos"
('a' as in apple + 'bows') even in public.  Nowadays of course, and rightly so that's
a major no-no, although it can still crop up in reviews of historical literature etc.

Having said that though, it doesn't have the major racist impact the nigger word
does in the US. 
   
I won't be hung-drawn-and-quartered if it accidentally slips out in public.  But as a
younger man I would've used it with impunity, as would my peers.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#71

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-22-2021, 12:35 AM)Vera Wrote: As for the so called n-word (and no, as a complete – and white – outsider, I think it’s ridiculous to avoid the word when used in articles and the like), I’ll never forget what one of my most favourite people here, tomilay (himself an African-American) once said, either here or on TTA (I’m paraphrasing probably):

“I’d rather someone call me “nigger”, than call me “sir” while they’re tying the noose around my neck.”

Make of this what you will.
I remember Tomilay. Seems like he's been here at times, but not recently. I would value his thoughts about these matters.
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#72

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-22-2021, 05:51 PM)SYZ Wrote: As I've probably said elsewhere, I find it amusing that Americans write nigger as "the N-word"
when of course it's patently obvious what they mean, or to whom they're referring.  We also
seem unperturbed by seeing "cunt" or "fuck" in our newspapers, but I don't recall ever seeing
those two in The New York Times.   I could be wrong?

The US is sort of a phony plastic culture that's more interested in sitcoms than social issues . However there are subcultures about . Some worse some better
N-word good  nigger bad regardless of context . If a woman nurses her child in public she is liable to be stoned to death
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#73

[Serious] Singing the N-word
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#74

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-22-2021, 11:17 PM)mordant Wrote:
(11-22-2021, 12:35 AM)Vera Wrote: As for the so called n-word (and no, as a complete – and white – outsider, I think it’s ridiculous to avoid the word when used in articles and the like), I’ll never forget what one of my most favourite people here, tomilay (himself an African-American) once said, either here or on TTA (I’m paraphrasing probably):

“I’d rather someone call me “nigger”, than call me “sir” while they’re tying the noose around my neck.”

Make of this what you will.
I remember Tomilay. Seems like he's been here at times, but not recently. I would value his thoughts about these matters.

He pops in at times, and I highly regard his posts. He clearly puts a lot of thought into them.
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#75

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-22-2021, 11:38 PM)Antonio Wrote: N-word good  nigger bad regardless of context .

I don't agree. Words aren't magical. They possess no power of their own, outside of context. In the context of discussing racism in America, I think just saying or typing "nigger" should not be offensive, insofar as the word isn't actually being used as a slur. And that too is why blacks in America use it referring to each other without offense, because they're not actually exerting some imagined racial superiority.

I don't like soft language. I think we can only be offended when we allow ourselves to be offended, but I think that some folk have more reason to take offense than others. As a white guy, "cracker" doesn't offend me, but (again, context) that's because white Americans haven't suffered oppression due to skin-color with that word as a concomitant to said oppression. The history gives context to both usage and users of the words we speak.
On hiatus.
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