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The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - SYZ - 07-15-2023
This is a report in today's ABC News about an Islamic practice
known as "milk mothering" which I find quite offensive in its
application, origins, and appearance in a secular country such
as Australia. (I have no issue with breast feeding per se.)
Muslim 'milk mums'
In Islam, a milk mother is generally understood as a woman who
has breastfed a baby—that she hasn't given birth to—on at least
five occasions before the child turns two.
According to a number of Hadith sources, which document the words
and actions of the Prophet Muhammad, those who are forbidden to
marry by lineage are also forbidden by way of milk. Once a baby
reaches adulthood, they are forbidden from marrying the biological
relatives of their milk mother—how absurd is this!
I'm getting really pissed of with these sorts of dark ages religious
customs insinuating themselves into a modern Australian culture.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - epronovost - 07-15-2023
You mean what used to be called a "wet nurse" which was a very common occupation all around the world, including Australia prior to the 20th century and the creation of baby formulas? Also, the reason why marrying in the family of your wet nurse is considered taboo in Islam is because a wet nurse is basically some sort of a foster parent. You might be into step sibling porn, but most people consider love and marriage with people you have been raised with under the same roof to be a bit touchy. In fact, the idea of marrying your wet nurse or one of her children was also considered touchy in Europe.
I think you are seeing something nefarious where there is nothing wrong. Women who can't breastfeed their babies have relied on others to help feed their children since the dawn of time. Let people be. It's not hurting anybody in any way. You might as well complain about the cuisine of some people at that point.
This is not a case of a religious practice whatsoever. It as nothing to do with Islam. Not everything that is culturally Middle Eastern is Islam. Furthermore, in that specific case, this cultural practice has direct analogue in Europe and East Asia and can even less be attributed to Islam. I would also like to mention that the idea of wet nurse and wise women has been making a return in the Western World since the sexual revolution and the birth of New Age movement. You might be just as likely to see wet nurses in Yuppy groups of women than within Muslim communities.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - SYZ - 07-16-2023
(07-15-2023, 11:53 PM)epronovost Wrote: You mean what used to be called a "wet nurse" which was a very common occupation all around the world, including Australia prior to the 20th century and the creation of baby formulas...
Yes, I'm aware of wet nursing. But "milk mothering" has totally
different reasons for its existence—and they're definitely religion
based. It also forms an automatic familial kinship between the
milk mother and whoever's bay she feeds—which is nonsensical.
And means, for example, that when the baby reaches adulthood,
he or she cannot marry any of the milk mother's sons or daughters.
A milk mother asks a pregnant woman if she can be her milk mother,
but it's not a matter of necessity like wet nursing, where a birth mother
can't feed her baby herself, for whatever reason, and approaches a wet
nursing facility.
At any rate, I consider Islam to be the most reprehensible religion of
them all, and any or all attempts to integrate its practices into a
nominally secular Australia should be resisted at all levels.
And believe it or not, this image of schoolgirls was captured on a street
in Sydney in 2017...
![[Image: Screenshot-2023-07-16-at-10-43-33-group-...h-musl.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/cJMV4X3G/Screenshot-2023-07-16-at-10-43-33-group-young-female-muslim-women-sidney-australia-sydney-march-musl.png)
Offensive? To me, absolutely.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Dom - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 12:55 AM)SYZ Wrote:(07-15-2023, 11:53 PM)epronovost Wrote: You mean what used to be called a "wet nurse" which was a very common occupation all around the world, including Australia prior to the 20th century and the creation of baby formulas...
Yes, I'm aware of wet nursing. But "milk mothering" has totally
different reasons for its existence—and they're definitely religion
based. It also forms an automatic familial kinship between the
milk mother and whoever's bay she feeds—which is nonsensical.
And means, for example, that when the baby reaches adulthood,
he or she cannot marry any of the milk mother's sons or daughters.
A milk mother asks a pregnant woman if she can be her milk mother,
but it's not a matter of necessity like wet nursing, where a birth mother
can't feed her baby herself, for whatever reason, and approaches a wet
nursing facility.
At any rate, I consider Islam to be the most reprehensible religion of
them all, and any or all attempts to integrate its practices into a
nominally secular Australia should be resisted at all levels.
And believe it or not, this image of schoolgirls was captured on a street
in Sydney in 2017...
Offensive? To me, absolutely.
I agree that Islam is a horrible religion. But the wet nurse thing is not one of the bad things.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - epronovost - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 12:55 AM)SYZ Wrote: Yes, I'm aware of wet nursing. But "milk mothering" has totally
different reasons for its existence—and they're definitely religion
based.
Unless you have some scholarly support for that claim, I'm afraid it's completely false. I have read the Koran and it's nowhere mandated or even regulated by it. I think the practice is not even mentioned in text as far as memory serves me. Hadith are not exclusively religious scriptures btw, they are also legal thesis, interpretations of the law and expansion on religious laws. There are even branches of Islam that completely rejects the idea of Hadith as religious texts and considers them purely as commentary, personal opinions or texts of dubious authenticity. Your total lack of knowledge on Islam and Middle Eastern cultures is showing a lot there.
Quote:It also forms an automatic familial kinship between the
milk mother and whoever's bay she feeds—which is nonsensical.
And means, for example, that when the baby reaches adulthood,
he or she cannot marry any of the milk mother's sons or daughters.
I don't think it's so absurd. It was also considered to be a familial kinship bond in other cultures who practiced wet nursing. The idea that wet nursing is purely a profession with a salary compensation dates back from the late 19th century. Prior to that, wet nurses are basically considered as trusted caretaker with an almost familial bond. Marrying your wet nurse or one of her child was also frowned upon in Christendom since the relationship was perceived as similar to godparents and godparents are considered as members of the family even if they have no blood relation. These types of bonds and kinship are very common to almost all human societies prior to the 19th century. That's way in English there is the famously misquoted axiom: "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the waters of the womb." This specific axiom basically means, that bonds and covenant shared by adults via blood oaths and other similar practices are even more important than filial relationship. It's very "pagan" so to speak.
Quote:A milk mother asks a pregnant woman if she can be her milk mother,
but it's not a matter of necessity like wet nursing, where a birth mother
can't feed her baby herself, for whatever reason, and approaches a wet
nursing facility.
Wet nursing is not a matter of necessity (though it can be) and was not made in a dedicated facility or section of a hospital until the 20th century when the activity was professionalized. Wet nurses were also used for convenience purpose to make life easier, as part of bonding and social activity for mothers or as a way to display status for rich and powerful women. You should brush up on your history of nursing, family and child rearing in the Western world.
Quote:At any rate, I consider Islam to be the most reprehensible religion of
them all, and any or all attempts to integrate its practices into a
nominally secular Australia should be resisted at all levels.
Again, it's not a religious practice. The principle of "Milk Mother" far pre-dates Islam. It is not a religious practice or ritual nor even a subject of importance in Islamic theology and has direct analogues in other cultures. That there are hadith about the practice doesn't mean anything. There are hadith about how to plant crops or manage waste, but I don't think agriculture or waste management to be tenets of Islam. It would be nice if you knew what you were supposed to fight instead of just making shit up. Next what you will rant about place that sell couscous because it's Muslim food and can't stand that your local instrument shop is selling an oud? There is far more to Middle Eastern cultures than Islam.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Thumpalumpacus - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 12:55 AM)SYZ Wrote: But "milk mothering" has totally
different reasons for its existence—and they're definitely religion
based. It also forms an automatic familial kinship between the
milk mother and whoever's ba[b]y she feeds—which is nonsensical.
And means, for example, that when the baby reaches adulthood,
he or she cannot marry any of the milk mother's sons or daughters.
So how does that hurt you? If the folk who hold to those standards hold to them for their faith or cultural mores, and don't inflict them on you, how does that affect you?
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - SYZ - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 01:43 AM)epronovost Wrote:(07-16-2023, 12:55 AM)SYZ Wrote: Yes, I'm aware of wet nursing. But "milk mothering" has totally
different reasons for its existence—and they're definitely religion
based.
Unless you have some scholarly support for that claim, I'm afraid it's completely false. I have read the Koran and it's nowhere mandated or even regulated by it. I think the practice is not even mentioned in text as far as memory serves me. Hadith are not exclusively religious scriptures btw, they are also legal thesis, interpretations of the law and expansion on religious laws. There are even branches of Islam that completely rejects the idea of Hadith as religious texts and considers them purely as commentary, personal opinions or texts of dubious authenticity. Your total lack of knowledge on Islam and Middle Eastern cultures is showing a lot there.
Okay. Today I read this on the ABC News site:
Quote:Iranian authorities have announced a new campaign to
force women to wear the Islamic headscarf, with morality
police returning to the streets 10 months after the death
of a woman in their custody sparked nationwide protests.
General Saeed Montazerolmahdi, a police spokesman, said
the morality police would resume notifying and then detaining
women not wearing hijab in public.
After the death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini last September
authorities struggled to contain mass protests calling for the
overthrow of the theocracy that has ruled Iran for over four
decades. The protests largely died down earlier this year
following a heavy crackdown in which over 500 protesters
were killed and nearly 20,000 detained.
As an atheist, I have not the faintest of desires and/or needs
to even open a Koran—why should I? I've been an atheist for
more than sixty years, and frankly, I don't give a flying fuck what
ii is, or what it says as it's inevitably all bullshit. Same as the
total irrelevancy of the Abrahamic bible or the Vedas or the Talmud
to an enlightened 21st century world.
I have no issues with the native populations of Islamic countries
practising their archaic and deadly religions, but when I see the
insidious ingress of Islamic practices into a secular Australia, I
have to draw the line as a lifelong atheist.
And as far as being a purported "religion of peace", try defending
these directives about non-Muslim infidels:
The Koran is replete with Surahs directing its followers to violence.
Surah 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who have
denied the Truth...".
Surah 2:191: "And kill them wherever you find them kill them. Such
is the recompense of the disbelievers."
Surah 9:5: "Then kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, capture
them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush".
In the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, this is the most unsympathetic
and most callous utterance from Muhammad, quoted in both sets of the
two most authentic collections of ahadith: —When informed that during
an attack on unbelievers (for being polytheists!) that innocent women and
children were killed, he responded, "They are from them".
At any rate, as an atheist posting on an atheist forum, I have very little
(none?) interest in the archaic historical backgrounds of all or any religions—
and why should I? Why are you so intent on defending the practice of Islam?
I can only assume that you're not an atheist, but most probably an agnostic
as you seem to put a lot of stead on what's written in the Koran.
No "authentic" atheist would go to all this trouble
to endorse Islam or condone its practices.
There are 83 million Muslims living in Iran—let's keep them there. We don't
want them here. End of story.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - SYZ - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 02:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:(07-16-2023, 12:55 AM)SYZ Wrote: But "milk mothering" has totally
different reasons for its existence—and they're definitely religion
based. It also forms an automatic familial kinship between the
milk mother and whoever's baby she feeds—which is nonsensical.
And means, for example, that when the baby reaches adulthood,
he or she cannot marry any of the milk mother's sons or daughters.
So how does that hurt you? If the folk who hold to those standards hold to them for their faith or cultural mores, and don't inflict them on you, how does that affect you?
Something or someone whose religious practices I strongly disagree
with don't of necessity have to "hurt" or "affect" me personally, but
the subtle imposition of something like Islamic practices, or even some
tenets of Sharia law into our secular society certainly can.
Milk mothering—unlike wet nursing—prohibits the mothered baby, as an
adult, from marrying the actual sons or daughters of the milk mother.
This is an absurd proposition, and has no basis in the potential effects
of recessive genes causing physical or mental abnormalities in the baby,
as would a brother-sister sexual relationship.
One of the funniest occurrences here was when Islamic councillors at a local
government council meeting refused to eat the chicken and beef sandwiches
provided for a lunchtime snack. The council's kitchen went out of their way
to avoid giving the Islamists ham sandwiches—naturally.
Why did they refuse? Because the chicken and beef sandwiches were
prepared on the same kitchen bench tops as the ham and salad sandwiches.
—At least these dickheads went hungry!
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Thumpalumpacus - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 02:48 PM)SYZ Wrote:(07-16-2023, 02:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: So how does that hurt you? If the folk who hold to those standards hold to them for their faith or cultural mores, and don't inflict them on you, how does that affect you?
Something or someone whose religious practices I strongly disagree
with don't of necessity have to "hurt" or "affect" me personally, but
the subtle imposition of something like Islamic practices, or even some
tenets of Sharia law into our secular society certainly can.
How is it being "imposed" on you? Are you required to live by this standard? Has this been made law, as you seem to be suggesting?
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - SYZ - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 03:13 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:(07-16-2023, 02:48 PM)SYZ Wrote: Something or someone whose religious practices I strongly disagree
with don't of necessity have to "hurt" or "affect" me personally, but
the subtle imposition of something like Islamic practices, or even some
tenets of Sharia law into our secular society certainly can.
How is it being "imposed" on you? Are you required to live by this standard? Has this been made law, as you seem to be suggesting?
A couple of recent (admittedly minor) restrictions imposed on non-Muslims
here in Victoria: Female-only gymnasiums for Muslims; "closed to males" days
at public swimming pools to allow Muslim females to swim; Halal certification
of foodstuffs requiring a labelling license fee paid—by the producer; a legal
right for Muslims to purchase prescription medications not encased in gelatine
capsules—at an additional cost to pharmacies.
Thin end of the wedge? Yes? No?
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Thumpalumpacus - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 03:29 PM)SYZ Wrote:(07-16-2023, 03:13 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: How is it being "imposed" on you? Are you required to live by this standard? Has this been made law, as you seem to be suggesting?
A couple of recent (admittedly minor) restrictions imposed on non-Muslims
here in Victoria: Female-only gymnasiums for Muslims; "closed to males" days
at public swimming pools to allow Muslim females to swim; Halal certification
of foodstuffs requiring a labelling license fee paid—by the producer; a legal
right for Muslims to purchase prescription medications not encased in gelatine
capsules—at an additional cost to pharmacies.
Thin end of the wedge? Yes? No?
So does that do you harm?
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - pattylt - 07-16-2023
As an atheist, I have no respect for the various religions in our world. However, I do have respect for the people that believe in those religions. I also have no issues with accommodation if it doesn’t place large burdens on the rest of society. That’s how we get people to get along with each other. Adapting hours one day a week for Muslims is a courtesy and doesn’t impose on me. While the caterers thought they were being accommodating to Islamic dietary law, their ignorance showed they need to consult with a Muslim next time. This would also be the case if any Orthodox Jews were present.
We’ve had more than enough wars and killings over different beliefs. I think it’s time we stopped that nonsense and learned to be a bit more kind and understanding. If you want someone to respect you being an atheist then an atheist needs to respect a believer. The beliefs are mostly immaterial and only need addressing when they are being forced on others.
Religious believers have been assholes enough to show us that we shouldn’t assume their habits of societal rule. Making the same mistakes is utter foolishness. Let’s not be assholes, too.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - epronovost - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 02:04 PM)SYZ Wrote: As an atheist, I have not the faintest of desires and/or needs
to even open a Koran—why should I? I've been an atheist for
more than sixty years, and frankly, I don't give a flying fuck what
ii is, or what it says as it's inevitably all bullshit. Same as the
total irrelevancy of the Abrahamic bible or the Vedas or the Talmud
to an enlightened 21st century world.
How can you fight an idea without knowing what the idea is? It's like trying to fight a war without any sort of reconnaissance or intelligence gathering. You are going to lose because you can only convince yourself and other bigots to follow your lead. You are not interested in stopping the growth of Islam or it's particularly repressive and authoritarian schools of thoughts. You just want to virtue signal and by trying to virtue signal your enlightenment, you just display bigotry and ignorance. The Enlightenment values are not a shield or some sort of virtue you can drape yourself in thanks to cultural links between you and them. That these values have been one of the pillar of your society doesn't make you a person who holds or incarnate those values equally well (and frankly the Enlightenment values are far from being the only pillars of Western societies). You have to live them personally and three of the most central Enlightenment values are reason, logic and curiosity. It would be the antithesis of Enlightenment values to criticize something you don't know or barely know anything about.
It's hypocrisy and making a mockery of reason to claim you are the rational one all the while not even knowing exactly who and what you are criticizing. A rational critique has to be an informed critique. Your entire argument is, after all, only a massive poisoning the well fallacy. It's not because Islam has many disgusting tenets that all the tenets of Islam are disgusting and it's not because Islam is the dominant religion in the middle East that all traditions of the Middle East are Islamic traditions. Milk mothers are such an example of a non-Islamic Middle Eastern tradition and as @Thumpalumpacus has already showed you, you have failed to make any sort of rational argument against the practice. You have only been accusing it of being weird, which is not wrong in and on itself, and being bad because Islam is bad which is both false since it's not Islamic and fallacious. Not all things in Islam are bad even if, as a whole, this religion is a source of great oppression and suffering in the Modern world. I could also add another element of fallacy to your argument by mentioning that if the practice of Milk mothers is gaining in popularity in Australia within the Muslim community, it doesn't mean that the specific Hadith which prevents the marriage of children of milk mothers and children who have used their services will be respected. After all, it's a Hadith and all the various sects and school of Islam use different Hadiths and constantly bicker about their validity and their contradictions. Fuck, they would even have to know about that Hadith in the first place too. Finally, to top it all off, you decided to go with a "No true Scotsman" fallacy about me as some sort of argument against my points? That's very enlighten of you, a great show of the application of the power of reason and critical thinking to a subject.
PS: your example was not about Milk Mothers, but the rules surrounding modesty of women in Islam.
PPS: little error on my part, I did not read the article you linked and now I am aghast by your senseless bigotry. First, the practice of milk mother is mentioned as being very rare and pre-dating Islam with various schools of thoughts in how this affect the relationship between the Milk Mother and the child's family. In the example presented in the article, the two women are already related by blood which is rather common if you look down on the history of the practice of wet nursing outside of filthy rich people who used slaves and servants for that task. This makes your rant even more unhinged. I don't think you view cousin fucking and marrying particularly well though it's legal in Australia. You are basically panicking because one woman decided to apply an old tradition that exists in basically almost all cultures and that this strange idea of resurrecting a very old tradition has given her and her sister a greater sense of family and made them happy. Woopty fucking do, the barbarian are at the gates of Rome.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Dom - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 05:26 PM)epronovost Wrote:(07-16-2023, 02:04 PM)SYZ Wrote: As an atheist, I have not the faintest of desires and/or needs
to even open a Koran—why should I? I've been an atheist for
more than sixty years, and frankly, I don't give a flying fuck what
ii is, or what it says as it's inevitably all bullshit. Same as the
total irrelevancy of the Abrahamic bible or the Vedas or the Talmud
to an enlightened 21st century world.
How can you fight an idea without knowing what the idea is? It's like trying to fight a war without any sort of reconnaissance or intelligence gathering. You are going to lose because you can only convince yourself and other bigots to follow your lead. You are not interested in stopping the growth of Islam or it's particularly repressive and authoritarian schools of thoughts. You just want to virtue signal and by trying to virtue signal your enlightenment, you just display bigotry and ignorance. The Enlightenment values are not a shield or some sort of virtue you can drape yourself in thanks to cultural links between you and them. That these values have been one of the pillar of your society doesn't make you a person who holds or incarnate those values equally well (and frankly the Enlightenment values are far from being the only pillars of Western societies). You have to live them personally and one of the most central enlightenment value is reason, logic and curiosity. It would be the antithesis of Enlightenment value to criticize something you don't know or barely know anything about.
It's hypocrisy and making a mockery of reason to claim you are the rational one all the while not even knowing exactly who and what you are criticizing. A rational critique has to be an informed critique. Your entire argument is, after all, only a massive poisoning the well fallacy. It's not because Islam has many disgusting tenets that all the tenets of Islam are disgusting and it's not because Islam is the dominant religion in the middle East that all traditions of the Middle East are Islamic traditions. Milk mothers are such an example of a non-Islamic Middle Eastern tradition and as @Thumpalumpacus has already showed you, you have failed to make any sort of rational argument against the practice. You have only been accusing it of being weird, which is not wrong in and on itself, and being bad because Islam is bad which is both false since it's not Islamic and fallacious. Not all things in Islam are bad even if, as a whole, this religion is a source of great oppression and suffering in the Modern world. I could also add another element of fallacy to your argument by mentioning that if the practice of Milk mothers is gaining in popularity in Australia within the Muslim community, it doesn't mean that the specific Hadith which prevents the marriage of children of milk mothers and children who have used their services will be respected. After all, it's a Hadith and all the various sects and school of Islam use different Hadiths and constantly bicker about their validity and their contradictions. Fuck, they would even have to know about that Hadith in the first place too. Finally, to top it all off, you decided to go with a "No true Scotsman" fallacy about me as some sort of argument against my points?
PS: your example was not about Milk Mothers, but the rules surrounding modesty of women in Islam.
Well, I don't have to read the Koran to know that Islam is a cruel and repressive religion. Stonings? Really? Killing women for "shaming" the family? Really? And the whole forced modesty thing....and no schooling for women and no women's rights at all practically.
Anyway, these things have nothing to do with the mother milk thing. But, nevertheless, Islam is a horrible religion.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - SYZ - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 03:57 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:(07-16-2023, 03:29 PM)SYZ Wrote: A couple of recent (admittedly minor) restrictions imposed on non-Muslims
here in Victoria: Female-only gymnasiums for Muslims; "closed to males" days
at public swimming pools to allow Muslim females to swim; Halal certification
of foodstuffs requiring a labelling license fee paid—by the producer; a legal
right for Muslims to purchase prescription medications not encased in gelatine
capsules—at an additional cost to pharmacies.
Thin end of the wedge? Yes? No?
So does that do you harm?
Well, not personally. But these sorts of thing certainly can or do "harm" to
plenty of others—particularly men or anybody who eats food. You're also
loading your question by using the pejorative term "harm", when you should
be saying "discomfort" or "cost" or "deprivation" or even "irritation".
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - SYZ - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 05:26 PM)epronovost Wrote:(07-16-2023, 02:04 PM)SYZ Wrote: As an atheist, I have not the faintest of desires and/or needs
to even open a Koran—why should I? I've been an atheist for
more than sixty years, and frankly, I don't give a flying fuck what
ii is, or what it says as it's inevitably all bullshit. Same as the
total irrelevancy of the Abrahamic bible or the Vedas or the Talmud
to an enlightened 21st century world.
How can you fight an idea without knowing what the idea is...
I have to say I'm surprised and disappointed at the vehemence of
respondent's defence of Islam and Islamic practices on an atheist
forum. I'm also disappointed by the personal insults directed at me
for merely stating my opinions—particularly by apparent Islamic
apologist epronovost, who has yet to address this:
Surah 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who have
Quote:denied the Truth...".
Surah 2:191: "And kill them wherever you find them kill them. Such
is the recompense of the disbelievers."
Surah 9:5: "Then kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, capture
them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush".
—Maybe as a long-term, mature-aged, astute, "practising" atheist I'm on the wrong forum.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - epronovost - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 05:35 PM)Dom Wrote: Well, I don't have to read the Koran to know that Islam is a cruel and repressive religion. Stonings? Really? Killing women for "shaming" the family? Really? And the whole forced modesty thing....and no schooling for women and no women's rights at all practically.
Anyway, these things have nothing to do with the mother milk thing. But, nevertheless, Islam is a horrible religion.
The funny part is that killing women for shaming the family is not really in the Quran. Honor killings are not supported in the Quran. A man doesn't have the right to kill his wife. This is a pre-Islamic cultural practice and, sadly, not uncommon around the world either. The idea that women should not go to school is also not in the Quran either, on the opposite actually and there are some rights granted to women in Quran to like the right to divorce under fairly generous circumstances, the right to own their dowery, the right to file lawsuits and be witnesses in trials (though they are worth less than a male witness) which is not particularly repressive if you compare it Roman law for example which is rather similar.
Not knowing much about Islam has lead you to believe that basically the Taliban and other fundamentalists of their ilk are "right". That they are the most representative of Islam and of the Quran which is a very dubious claim. You give more credit and legitimacy to them inadvertently by believing they are good representation of Islam. That's why it's important to know about Islam if you want to fight the ideas in conveys. You can be a Muslim, a devout Muslim, who considers stoning and the death penalty as wrong, who is all for women education and equality and modesty is perhaps the most flexible value of them all. Modesty literally means looking normal, not attracting attention to yourself, not looking special. In a sense, the hijab in a country where women don't wear scarves on their head is not modest since it attracts attention and makes them look special.
You don't need to know much about Islam if you don't want to be Muslim or even to reasonably dislike it. But, if you want to counter it. If you want to do something about it that is not purely bigoted masturbation, you need to know about it and you need to care about the people who espouse it.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - epronovost - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 05:55 PM)SYZ Wrote: [quote="epronovost" pid='402875' dateline='1689528368']
How can you fight an idea without knowing what the idea is...
I have to say I'm surprised and disappointed at the vehemence of
respondent's defence of Islam and Islamic practices on an atheist
forum. I'm also disappointed by the personal insults directed at me
for merely stating my opinions—particularly by apparent Islamic
apologist epronovost, who has yet to address this:
Surah 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who have
Quote:denied the Truth...".
Surah 2:191: "And kill them wherever you find them kill them. Such
is the recompense of the disbelievers."
Surah 9:5: "Then kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, capture
them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush".
Why would I have to address this?
Where did I claim my support for Islam and specifically for these specific tenets?
I only stated that I did not care about Milk Mothers, that Milk Mothers are not an Islamic practice and that I find the idea that marrying people who have grown up with in a manner akin to siblings to be indeed too incestuous-ish for my personal taste though I would not go as far as to deny someone the right to do it anyway.
Are all the people who accuse you of bigotry by definition all in for mass murder? Do you seriously think the woman in the article is the kind of person who supports those type of quotes? She doesn't look like a danger or hateful towards anybody. Actually she sounds like a lovely woman if a bit weird on the edges, but I'm weird on the edges so who am I to criticize this.
If you can't handle being criticized or even insulted, perhaps you should apply this old principle: reciprocity. Don't insult other people. Be very measured in your critique. Avoid inflammatory statements and harsh terms. Be gentle with others, even those you dislike and disagree with and they will most likely return the favor or at the very least, others will come to your defense should reciprocity not be afforded to you. You considered a completely inoffensive woman a threat to your society for doing something that is completely innocuous and far from being a trend is not what I would call a measured critique. And you going on on a rant about hijab and quote mining the Quran for abject tenets that are completely unrelated to the subject of milk mothers is not what I would call a measured response or a rational critique of the practice either.
I mean to illustrate it, do you think someone who said they considered the afro as a threat to their society and an infiltration of evil black culture in white society as anything else than racism? I think you would agree that smells racist a lot, especially if the answer to push back from people mentioning that afro are not only a black people haircuts and not a threat at all is to claim that black culture is evil because it celebrates misogyny and gangsterism and proceeded to prove these unrelated points by quoting rap song lyrics, a bunch of crime statistics and a picture of Tupac looking all gangsta. That's basically, the playbook of every "racist uncle at the diner party". Say something petty and bigoted and then defend it by moving the goalpost to extreme examples that are completely unrelated. Islam is not a disease. It's a religion. It's not because someone does something Islamic or vaguely Islamic-ish that they suddenly going to strap bombs to their chest and beat their wives for talking to another man. The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider those things to be very wrong and immoral and don't do them.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Dom - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 06:12 PM)epronovost Wrote:(07-16-2023, 05:35 PM)Dom Wrote: Well, I don't have to read the Koran to know that Islam is a cruel and repressive religion. Stonings? Really? Killing women for "shaming" the family? Really? And the whole forced modesty thing....and no schooling for women and no women's rights at all practically.
Anyway, these things have nothing to do with the mother milk thing. But, nevertheless, Islam is a horrible religion.
The funny part is that killing women for shaming the family is not really in the Quran. Honor killings are not supported in the Quran. A man doesn't have the right to kill his wife. This is a pre-Islamic cultural practice and, sadly, not uncommon around the world either. The idea that women should not go to school is also not in the Quran either, on the opposite actually and there are some rights granted to women in Quran to like the right to divorce under fairly generous circumstances, the right to own their dowery, the right to file lawsuits and be witnesses in trials (though they are worth less than a male witness) which is not particularly repressive if you compare it Roman law for example which is rather similar.
Not knowing much about Islam has lead you to believe that basically the Taliban and other fundamentalists of their ilk are "right". That they are the most representative of Islam and of the Quran which is a very dubious claim. You give more credit and legitimacy to them inadvertently by believing they are good representation of Islam. That's why it's important to know about Islam if you want to fight the ideas in conveys. You can be a Muslim, a devout Muslim, who considers stoning and the death penalty as wrong, who is all for women education and equality and modesty is perhaps the most flexible value of them all. Modesty literally means looking normal, not attracting attention to yourself, not looking special. In a sense, the hijab in a country where women don't wear scarves on their head is not modest since it attracts attention and makes them look special.
You don't need to know much about Islam if you don't want to be Muslim or even to reasonably dislike it. But, if you want to counter it. If you want to do something about it that is not purely bigoted masturbation, you need to know about it and you need to care about the people who espouse it.
I have no issue with the people of islam faith in general. I have an issue with those cruel practices that a portion of them adhere to. Just like I have no issue with little old ladies going to mass, but a major issue with Catholic priests abusing kids. That's not ok in the bible either.
It's not about what people are taught, or want to put in their lives, it's about harming others.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - epronovost - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 06:53 PM)Dom Wrote: I have no issue with the people of islam faith in general. I have an issue with those cruel practices that a portion of them adhere to. Just like I have no issue with little old ladies going to mass, but a major issue with Catholic priests abusing kids. That's not ok in the bible either.
It's not about what people are taught, or want to put in their lives, it's about harming others.
I could not agree more with such a sentiment. I share that principle too.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Inkubus - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 05:55 PM)SYZ Wrote: —Maybe as a long-term, mature-aged, astute, "practising" atheist I'm on the wrong forum.
Or maybe you're raging against the wrong machine. Just a few days ago you posted this:
Quote:Queensland Parents for Secular State Schools (QPSSS) said
that “school chaplaincy was an ill-conceived and poorly designed
program from the outset”. It cited the fact more than “$1 billion
of taxpayer money was funnelled to religious organisations
to place people hand-picked for their religious beliefs into
diverse public schools”.
$1 billion of taxpayer money to fund:
Quote:The National School Chaplaincy Programme (NSCP), between 2011 and 2014 known as the National School Chaplaincy and Student Welfare Programme, is an Australian federal government programme which funds chaplains in Australian primary and secondary schools. The chaplains are to provide "support and guidance about ethics, values, relationships and spirituality. Wiki
Fucking spirituality!!
Isn't this something worth getting your knackers in a knot over rather than your incoherent rant about wet nurses? FFS!
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Minimalist - 07-16-2023
Given all the stupid stuff that religitards do in the name of their fucking made-up gods I don't know why this one should be so triggering.
Honor Killings, arranged marriages, or shunnings seem far more serious but here in the US people get killed everyday for no damn reason at all, so, who are we to talk?
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Thumpalumpacus - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 05:26 PM)epronovost Wrote: First, the practice of milk mother is mentioned as being very rare and pre-dating Islam with various schools of thoughts in how this affect the relationship between the Milk Mother and the child's family.
It needs to be noted that many if not most precepts of Islam, as well as other religions, long predate the religion itself, and are derived from the sociocultural substrate that gave rise to the religion in the first place. I don't know that that is the case in this instance.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - epronovost - 07-16-2023
(07-16-2023, 10:54 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:(07-16-2023, 05:26 PM)epronovost Wrote: First, the practice of milk mother is mentioned as being very rare and pre-dating Islam with various schools of thoughts in how this affect the relationship between the Milk Mother and the child's family.
It needs to be noted that many if not most precepts of Islam, as well as other religions, long predate the religion itself, and are derived from the sociocultural substrate that gave rise to the religion in the first place. I don't know that that is the case in this instance.
Well there is a difference between a religious tenet or practice like prayers or religious rituals and values for examples and things on which religion has "an opinion". Slavery for example is not a religious practice, but pretty much all religion discuss the subject of slavery and provide opinions and laws on it based on religious tenets. That's why in the Quran you will have discussion on the status of slavery being explained and detailed with a specific attention on its limitation due to concern over the morality of the practice. Slavery is seen as part of society and normal, but also bad for the slaves thus it needs to be restricted to "bad people" like non-Muslims, criminals, women of low social standing and never affect good people like normal Muslims for example.
Milk Mothers fall in the later category. It's a very old practice that far pre-dates the religion and is viewed as "normal" as in it's going to continue. Since religious law and tenets concern themselves with familial bond and sexual morality, some Muslims cleric needed to clarify the status of Milk Mothers in relation to Islam's view on familial bond and sexual morality. Incest is considered immoral in Islam and the rules against it are very strict so there was a legitimate question on how Islam would view covenants that create familial relationships between people who are not by necessity blood related hence why the practice is discussed. There is a distinction between what a religion is about and what it talks about because those are not always the same thing.
RE: The Insidious Advancement of Islam in Australia - Thumpalumpacus - 07-17-2023
My point was that this proscription may be based in the older and deeper cultural base that gave rise to Islam as well. We cannot say it's the religion which made the taboo, or if the taboo existed prior and the religion then subsumed it.