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Full Version: Is veganism the only ethical dietary choice for atheists?
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If you don't believe in a neverland where we all go to live happily ever after is it ethical to consume animal products?
Humans are omnivores. Humans are animals. Is it "ethical" for other omnivores (and carnivores) to consume animals?
What in the holy fuck has an afterlife got to do with our nutritional choices?!?
Yeah, how does the after life figure into this?
(10-23-2021, 07:20 PM)Vera Wrote: [ -> ]Humans are omnivores. Humans are animals. Is it "ethical" for other omnivores (and carnivores) to consume animals?

Where ethics is concerned humans have a monopoly on the concept. We can't compare humans to other animals as other animals don't have an understanding of ethics.

Is it ethical for us (an animal who understands that another animal will suffer) to use that other animal for our own benefit where we don't need to?
(10-23-2021, 07:13 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]If you don't believe in a neverland where we all go to live happily ever after is it ethical to consume animal products?
This is a nonsensical question.  The ethics of an issue stand or fall on their own merits, not on the belief in an afterlife or the lack thereof.
(10-23-2021, 07:40 PM)Dom Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, how does the after life figure into this?

It figures into this, as if you are prepared to accept that we only live one life then is it ethical to take the life of another sentient being who also has only one life
(10-23-2021, 07:42 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]we don't need to

According to whom? Like I said, we're omnivores.

And yes, we can compare humans to other animals. We *are* animals. We have evolved in a slightly different way but we can't be both totally different from all other life when it suits us, and "we're just an animal" when this suits us better.

And by the way, "ethical" dilemmas are rarely simplistic and black and white enough for a simple yes or no question.

We have a moral, for lack of better word, obligation to treat all animals humanely, even if we are keeping them for our own "benefit".

Beyond that, veganism is a vastly more complex issue than a simplistic "if there isn't a heaven is it right to eat animals" question.
(10-23-2021, 07:42 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]Is it ethical for us (an animal who understands that another animal will suffer) to use that other animal for our own benefit where we don't need to?

Who says the animal has to suffer? I used to raise some pigs, they foraged and played soccer and rolled tires and whatnot. They had a carefree, fun life, better than me. When it became time, the butcher came on location and placed one shot. I would much prefer that death to whatever suffering I am destined to do when I die. 

A good life and a good death, that's better than most of us can hope for.

And I disagree that we don't need to. I don't eat processed foods, well, foods that were not processed in my own kitchen. I have had so many friends and relatives die of cancer, I am not going to eat the way they did, buying all this processed junk.
A person's dietary choices are their own, wanna be a vegan/vegetarian? Then good for you, go for it, I totally respect your choices and that it works for you, I believe that we should all stay out of each others food choices unless definative deliberate cruelty of sentients is demonstrated because the choice of what we eat is very sadly one of the few free choices we have these days, Hitler was a vegetarian (except when it came to consumption occasionally of liver sausage and squab (pigeon)) but even he did not mandate his personal diet on the German people. We are naturally omnivorous, if we were not then we would have a physiology that precluded an ability to digest meat (like herbivores such as sheep cows horses etc etc) and nor would we have canine teeth. As an animal lover I struggle morally with the eating of meat but we would not be where we are now if we had developed as purely herbivorous, I should also point out that there is no  human diet on earth that doesn't have an impact on nature and the environment in one way or another, millions of critters die horribly mangled each year in the machinary used to produce the food consumed by meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans.
(10-23-2021, 07:57 PM)Dom Wrote: [ -> ]Who says the animal has to suffer? I used to raise some pigs, they foraged and played soccer and rolled tires and whatnot. They had a carefree, fun life, better than me. When it became time, the butcher came on location and placed one shot. I would much prefer that death to whatever suffering I am destined to do when I die. 

A good life and a good death, that's better than most of us can hope for.

And I disagree that we don't need to. I don't eat processed foods, well, foods that were not processed in my own kitchen. I have had so many friends and relatives die of cancer, I am not going to eat the way they did, buying all this processed junk.

Like I said above this is a much more complex discussion than the simplistic way it's posed here, but I've blabbered often enough here about just how much suffering *all* complex life involves (and by complex I mean anything other than the most basic multicellular life, really). There is SO much horror and suffering in nature, it's actually grotesque. Yes, we do contribute a lot to that (and that's not even taking climate change into consideration) but a humane farm provides animals a MUCH better life and yes, death, than the alternative.

I posted this in a different thread (and it might be wasted here) but this is a rather apt description of life:

"A meadow is nothing but a field of suffering. Every second some creature is dying in the gorgeous green expanse, ants eat wriggling earthworms, birds lurk in the sky to pounce on a weasel or a mouse. You see that black cat, standing motionless in the grass. She is only waiting for an opportunity to kill. I detest all that naïve respect for nature. Do you think that a doe in the jaws of a tiger feels less horror than you? People thought up the idea that animals don’t have the same capability for suffering as human, because otherwise they couldn’t bear the knowledge that they are surrounded by a world of nature that is horror and nothing but horror."

Yes, nature with all its glorious variety is, well, glorious, but it is also unimaginably cruel. Horrifically so.
(10-23-2021, 07:57 PM)Dom Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2021, 07:42 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]Is it ethical for us (an animal who understands that another animal will suffer) to use that other animal for our own benefit where we don't need to?

Who says the animal has to suffer? I used to raise some pigs, they foraged and played soccer and rolled tires and whatnot. They had a carefree, fun life, better than me. When it became time, the butcher came on location and placed one shot. I would much prefer that death to whatever suffering I am destined to do when I die. 

A good life and a good death, that's better than most of us can hope for.

And I disagree that we don't need to. I don't eat processed foods, well, foods that were not processed in my own kitchen. I have had so many friends and relatives die of cancer, I am not going to eat the way they did, buying all this processed junk.

You don't think that dying when you don't want to is a form of suffering?
Also, there are two ways humans can get energy - from glucose and from fat. The current trend is to get it mostly from glucose (all carbs transform to glucose) and look at the health results. I'll give you that it's better to draw energy the one way or the other, mixing leads to obesity and disease. Either stay away from fat, or stay away from glucose. 

Some people do better on one energy source, some on the other. I suspect it has to do with DNA and ancestry conditions.
(10-23-2021, 08:07 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2021, 07:57 PM)Dom Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2021, 07:42 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]Is it ethical for us (an animal who understands that another animal will suffer) to use that other animal for our own benefit where we don't need to?

Who says the animal has to suffer? I used to raise some pigs, they foraged and played soccer and rolled tires and whatnot. They had a carefree, fun life, better than me. When it became time, the butcher came on location and placed one shot. I would much prefer that death to whatever suffering I am destined to do when I die. 

A good life and a good death, that's better than most of us can hope for.

And I disagree that we don't need to. I don't eat processed foods, well, foods that were not processed in my own kitchen. I have had so many friends and relatives die of cancer, I am not going to eat the way they did, buying all this processed junk.

You don't think that dying when you don't want to is a form of suffering?

Not really. Pigs live in the moment, they don't have plans and think ahead. If today is good, all is good.

Why would length of life span be such a good thing?
(10-23-2021, 08:09 PM)Dom Wrote: [ -> ]Also, there are two ways humans can get energy - from glucose and from fat. The current trend is to get it mostly from glucose (all carbs transform to glucose) and look at the health results. I'll give you that it's better to draw energy the one way or the other, mixing leads to obesity and disease. Either stay away from fat, or stay away from glucose. 

Some people do better on one energy source, some on the other. I suspect it has to do with DNA and ancestry conditions.

Then why not get energy direct from source? Animals eat plants to get energy then we get the energy second hand from animals
(10-23-2021, 08:16 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2021, 08:09 PM)Dom Wrote: [ -> ]Also, there are two ways humans can get energy - from glucose and from fat. The current trend is to get it mostly from glucose (all carbs transform to glucose) and look at the health results. I'll give you that it's better to draw energy the one way or the other, mixing leads to obesity and disease. Either stay away from fat, or stay away from glucose. 

Some people do better on one energy source, some on the other. I suspect it has to do with DNA and ancestry conditions.

Then why not get energy direct from source? Animals eat plants to get energy then we get the energy second hand from animals

There are many different kinds of fats. Only some can be derived as oil from plants. The energy second hand from animals? Plants live too, you know, it's second hand there too. They eat microbes and decayed things.
(10-23-2021, 08:16 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]Then why not get energy direct from source?

Indeed. When are you gonna start photosynthesizing? Deadpan Coffee Drinker
(10-23-2021, 08:16 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]Then why not get energy direct from source? Animals eat plants to get energy then we get the energy second hand from animals.

It's not so much a matter of energy sources as whether we can use those sources.  The human body cannot produce nine "essential" amino acids, and very few plant sources can supply all of them (soybeans are one of the very few sources of all nine essential amino acids).  Beans are generally somewhat difficult for the body to digest, though.

B12 is also problematic for vegans and vegetarians.

Speaking from personal experience, I had an ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet for 10 years but gave it up because I didn't feel particularly healthy on it.  I'm now a flexitarian:  I prefer to consume some meat, although I regularly have vegetarian dishes (in fact, I have some vegan soup in the fridge that I made last night).
Just asking a question. I don't want to get flamed as I don't have a point to make.
(10-23-2021, 08:34 PM)Vera Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2021, 08:16 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]Then why not get energy direct from source?

Indeed. When are you gonna start photosynthesizing? Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Never as I can't photosynthesise. You?
Dietary choices can have ethical implications, but the fact is that every animal on Earth gets its sustenance from killing and eating something else.
(10-23-2021, 09:13 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]Just asking a question. I don't want to get flamed as I don't have a point to make.

Veganism/vegetarianism can be a hot topic for many but I've not observed you being flamed by anyone tbh
(10-23-2021, 07:13 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]... is it ethical to consume animal products?

Ethics are largely anthropocentric.  Eating animal products is beneficial to humans.  So, yes, it is ethical to consume animal products.

Would you care to rephrase your question?
(10-23-2021, 09:14 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]Never as I can't photosynthesise. You?

Then the whole "get energy direct from source" point (and I use the word extremely loosely) is moot.

And just so we know, are you capable of interacting in more than one or two sentences at a time? Because what you are doing now is teetering on the verge of spamming and dishonesty. Apologies if this is all the mental effort you're capable of.
(10-23-2021, 09:27 PM)Alan V Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-23-2021, 07:13 PM)TinyDave Wrote: [ -> ]... is it ethical to consume animal products?

Ethics are largely anthropocentric.  Eating animal products is beneficial to humans.  So, yes, it is ethical to consume animal products.

Would you care to rephrase your question?

Yes I will. This is a thread that I posted in haste and without proper forethought.

It's saturday night and I apologise to all.
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