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10-22-2020, 02:52 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
The percentage of marriages conducted by civil celebrants in Australia during the
past 12 years has increased by 15% (61.3% to 76.40%) in that period; the number
of civil marriage celebrants rose by 119%. Ministers of religion now account for less
than a quarter of marriage ceremonies, with the remainder performed by Territory
officers at regional courts.
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10-22-2020, 06:23 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-21-2020, 07:38 PM)Aliza Wrote: I think this should be applauded. Any step forward is still a step in the right direction.
The problem with civil union laws was they didn't afford people the same legal rights and protections as marriage - and that was seen across a number of countries, including here in Australia. For example, civil unions partners were/are not automatically recognised as next of kin when spouses are, they were/are not afforded the same rights in hospitals or aged care facilities, and so on. Personally I think they society should have just fixed the problems with civil union laws - lots of these issues have been fixed, but they still persist. The reason why is because there's tonnes of laws that reference marriage at a time when civil unions didn't exist, and while a lot of them have been updated not all of them have been.
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10-22-2020, 11:10 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 06:23 AM)Aractus Wrote: (10-21-2020, 07:38 PM)Aliza Wrote: I think this should be applauded. Any step forward is still a step in the right direction.
The problem with civil union laws was they didn't afford people the same legal rights and protections as marriage - and that was seen across a number of countries, including here in Australia. For example, civil unions partners were/are not automatically recognised as next of kin when spouses are, they were/are not afforded the same rights in hospitals or aged care facilities, and so on. Personally I think they society should have just fixed the problems with civil union laws - lots of these issues have been fixed, but they still persist. The reason why is because there's tonnes of laws that reference marriage at a time when civil unions didn't exist, and while a lot of them have been updated not all of them have been.
That's an Aussie thing. In many countries, the civil union is the marriage, church is optional. Marriages are civil unions. You get a license and have someone licensed pronounce you married and sign a document and you file it and that's it.
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10-22-2020, 11:29 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 11:10 AM)Dom Wrote: That's an Aussie thing. In many countries, the civil union is the marriage, church is optional. Marriages are civil unions. You get a license and have someone licensed pronounce you married and sign a document and you file it and that's it.
Haha, no.
I just told you what the problem was - laws that were written after marriage was a legal thing.
Why don't we take Germany as an example? They had civil unions recognised by 2001. It took them until 2013 to give civil union couples the same tax status as married couples. That's 12 years. And that's just one highly influential law. What about the hundreds of others that are much less prominent?
It's the whole reason why the LGB movement went for same-sex-marriage: because they still faced discrimination under civil union laws... and that did not start in Australia it started over in Europe.
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10-22-2020, 12:00 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 11:29 AM)Aractus Wrote: (10-22-2020, 11:10 AM)Dom Wrote: That's an Aussie thing. In many countries, the civil union is the marriage, church is optional. Marriages are civil unions. You get a license and have someone licensed pronounce you married and sign a document and you file it and that's it.
Haha, no.
I just told you what the problem was - laws that were written after marriage was a legal thing.
Why don't we take Germany as an example? They had civil unions recognised by 2001. It took them until 2013 to give civil union couples the same tax status as married couples. That's 12 years. And that's just one highly influential law. What about the hundreds of others that are much less prominent?
It's the whole reason why the LGB movement went for same-sex-marriage: because they still faced discrimination under civil union laws... and that did not start in Australia it started over in Europe.
I happen to have married my first husband in Germany. Civil Union, resulting in a marriage certificate. I suppose same sex couples were not able to do the same, and that had to be amended.
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10-22-2020, 12:20 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
So, how long until we actually meet "Mrs. Pope"?
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10-22-2020, 02:14 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
To the bishops and conservatives who want to denounce the pope, he supports 'civil unions'. 'Civil', get it? It's none of your fucking business!
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Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
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10-22-2020, 03:19 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
I'll believe it when I see Catholic priests routinely performing same sex wedding ceremonies.
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10-22-2020, 03:47 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 12:00 PM)Dom Wrote: (10-22-2020, 11:29 AM)Aractus Wrote: (10-22-2020, 11:10 AM)Dom Wrote: That's an Aussie thing. In many countries, the civil union is the marriage, church is optional. Marriages are civil unions. You get a license and have someone licensed pronounce you married and sign a document and you file it and that's it.
Haha, no.
I just told you what the problem was - laws that were written after marriage was a legal thing.
Why don't we take Germany as an example? They had civil unions recognised by 2001. It took them until 2013 to give civil union couples the same tax status as married couples. That's 12 years. And that's just one highly influential law. What about the hundreds of others that are much less prominent?
It's the whole reason why the LGB movement went for same-sex-marriage: because they still faced discrimination under civil union laws... and that did not start in Australia it started over in Europe.
I happen to have married my first husband in Germany. Civil Union, resulting in a marriage certificate. I suppose same sex couples were not able to do the same, and that had to be amended.
I think that, at least for here in the states, you're conflating civil ceremonies with civil unions. In a civil union you receive a civil union certificate, not a marriage certificate. There are also a number of federal legal protections you will not receive as a member of a civil union vs. a marriage. Civil unions are legally different than marriages (as I pointed up with the link in my earlier post) here in the states and in many places abroad. Civil unions are also not universally available.
When the pope says it's ok for priests to join two people in holy matrimony, I'll believe he's beginning to lose his bigoted views. As long as he's touting this "separate but equal" bullshit we'll know he's just trying to make pleasing noises that mean nothing.
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10-22-2020, 05:24 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 03:47 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote: (10-22-2020, 12:00 PM)Dom Wrote: (10-22-2020, 11:29 AM)Aractus Wrote: Haha, no.
I just told you what the problem was - laws that were written after marriage was a legal thing.
Why don't we take Germany as an example? They had civil unions recognised by 2001. It took them until 2013 to give civil union couples the same tax status as married couples. That's 12 years. And that's just one highly influential law. What about the hundreds of others that are much less prominent?
It's the whole reason why the LGB movement went for same-sex-marriage: because they still faced discrimination under civil union laws... and that did not start in Australia it started over in Europe.
I happen to have married my first husband in Germany. Civil Union, resulting in a marriage certificate. I suppose same sex couples were not able to do the same, and that had to be amended.
I think that, at least for here in the states, you're conflating civil ceremonies with civil unions. In a civil union you receive a civil union certificate, not a marriage certificate. There are also a number of federal legal protections you will not receive as a member of a civil union vs. a marriage. Civil unions are legally different than marriages (as I pointed up with the link in my earlier post) here in the states and in many places abroad. Civil unions are also not universally available.
When the pope says it's ok for priests to join two people in holy matrimony, I'll believe he's beginning to lose his bigoted views. As long as he's touting this "separate but equal" bullshit we'll know he's just trying to make pleasing noises that mean nothing.
In some countries civil equals secular, as opposed to performed by a priest. The pope specifies the various rights his suggestion bestows.
And no, not during this pope's lifetime will there be a religious wedding for same sex couples. Maybe after that. The catholic church at least recognizes that it will have to adapt to societal changes to survive. Can't be said about fundies or muslims etc.
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10-22-2020, 06:52 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2020, 06:53 PM by mordant.)
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 05:24 PM)Dom Wrote: The catholic church at least recognizes that it will have to adapt to societal changes to survive. Can't be said about fundies or muslims etc.
ALL religions and sects change. They just doing it discretely, slowly enough and far enough behind general society that only the old-timers really notice, and everyone expects them to crab about the good old days. In this way they maintain the fiction that god's law / morality is immutable, while not getting too far astray from the general populace.
Why?
Because morality is a work product of society. Religion participates because it's part of society, but increasingly in the past dozen or so generations, societal morality has changed faster than religion. Religion HAS to change so that it's reasonably close to societal morality, or it would be sanctioned as ... wait for it ... immoral.
Fundamentalism used to find radio evil, until radio was ubiquitous and unavoidable even in rural areas, and they realized it was a tool for spreading the gospel. Then they were against dancing and movies and knee length dresses and TV and all sorts of things that the vast majority of modern fundamentalists don't give a second thought to. In the 60s they invented new vices such as beards on men as a reaction to the hippie movement; today it's mostly not a concern. So they evolve also.
Even old-order Amish can't get away with murder, metaphorically or literally. Their belief that anything beyond early 19th century technology is a snare of the devil is already under siege. Other, less strict Anabaptists like the Mennonites allow phones and cars. Even the Amish find it hard to function without these things. An Amish farmer near where I lived years ago in Michigan asked to use his non-Amish neighbor's phone so often that the guy got tired of it and just ran an extension out to his property line and hung a phone on the fencepost for his neighbor's use.
Even Muslims have more and less progressive Mullahs. They just skew more strict overall. But they're just where Christianity was 300 years ago and they'll be where Christianity is now eventually.
I predict that in a hundred year's time, fundamentalists will find same sex marriage unremarkable. We just need the passage of time for the die hards to ... well, die hard.
There will always of course be a few hold outs, just as a tiny minority of fundamentalists still handle poisonous snakes or wear oddly out of fashion clothing. But in the main, even they can't resist the sweep of cultural and social change.
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10-22-2020, 08:10 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
SCHISM!!! SCHISM!!!!
Oh wait...... a little late for that.
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/10/frankli...r-nothing/
Quote:Franklin Graham goes apoplectic over Pope’s push for civil unions for gays: ‘The cross would have been for nothing’
Quote:Graham sees the Catholic Church’s new regard for supporting LGBTQ people in law – not religion – as so dangerous to the Christian faith he says it would mean Jesus died for nothing.
"Jesus" (if there had been a "jesus") did die for nothing ( if he died at all ) you ignorant inbred hillbilly shithead.
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10-22-2020, 10:31 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 06:23 AM)Aractus Wrote: The problem with civil union laws was they didn't afford people the same legal rights and protections as marriage...
Yes; that was the case here in Australia. I have no knowledge of other country's marriage laws.
But now in Australia—technically—there exists no such thing as a "civil union" other than used as loose,
non-legal terminology. So-called civil unions now have identical legal status in all jurisdictions as a so-called
conventional marriage, as per the revised Marriage Act 1961. In 2017, the definition of "marriage" was
changed, replacing the words "a man and a woman" with "2 people" and therefore allowing monogamous
same-sex marriages.
Australian law recognises only monogamous marriages, being marriages of two people, including same-sex
marriages, and does not recognise any other forms of union.
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10-23-2020, 02:31 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 05:24 PM)Dom Wrote: In some countries civil equals secular, as opposed to performed by a priest. And, in countries that don't make that distinction. You live in one. You can only get a civil union in 5 states in this country. If same-sex marriage decisions were to be reversed, same-sex couples could only enter into a legal union in 5 states. They would also have to forfeit legal protections under federal law. And, this doesn't even consider jusridictions where same-sex relations of any type are a crime and there is no alternative.
(10-22-2020, 05:24 PM)Dom Wrote: The pope specifies the various rights his suggestion bestows. He does? Not in the blurb you posted and you didn't provide a link. Besides, his suggestions bestow nothing when it comes to law in most places outside Vatican City.
(10-22-2020, 05:24 PM)Dom Wrote: And no, not during this pope's lifetime will there be a religious wedding for same sex couples. Maybe after that. The catholic church at least recognizes that it will have to adapt to societal changes to survive. Can't be said about fundies or muslims etc. So, the pope isn't really softening his stance. He's just making pretty, meaningless, noises.
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10-23-2020, 10:11 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
If you and your significant other only "do it" missionary, does that consitute a same-sex marriage?
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10-23-2020, 10:36 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
An all female plumbers union might be fun.
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10-23-2020, 12:30 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 10:31 PM)SYZ Wrote: (10-22-2020, 06:23 AM)Aractus Wrote: The problem with civil union laws was they didn't afford people the same legal rights and protections as marriage...
Yes; that was the case here in Australia. I have no knowledge of other country's marriage laws.
But now in Australia—technically—there exists no such thing as a "civil union" other than used as loose,
non-legal terminology. So-called civil unions now have identical legal status in all jurisdictions as a so-called
conventional marriage, as per the revised Marriage Act 1961. In 2017, the definition of "marriage" was
changed, replacing the words "a man and a woman" with "2 people" and therefore allowing monogamous
same-sex marriages.
Australian law recognises only monogamous marriages, being marriages of two people, including same-sex
marriages, and does not recognise any other forms of union.
Some states in the US also have a "common law marriage". https://family.findlaw.com/marriage/comm...riage.html
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10-23-2020, 11:20 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-21-2020, 07:38 PM)Aliza Wrote: I think this should be applauded. Any step forward is still a step in the right direction.
Indeed. Sorta strange that the Roman Catholic church now seems more progressive than the theocrats and bible-thumpers in the US.
-Teresa
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10-24-2020, 01:12 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
They always have been.... just a tad and kicking and screaming the whole time.
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10-25-2020, 12:06 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-25-2020, 12:07 AM by mordant.)
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-22-2020, 08:10 PM)Minimalist Wrote: SCHISM!!! SCHISM!!!!
Oh wait...... a little late for that.
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/10/frankli...r-nothing/
Quote:Franklin Graham goes apoplectic over Pope’s push for civil unions for gays: ‘The cross would have been for nothing’
Quote:Graham sees the Catholic Church’s new regard for supporting LGBTQ people in law – not religion – as so dangerous to the Christian faith he says it would mean Jesus died for nothing.
"Jesus" (if there had been a "jesus") did die for nothing ( if he died at all ) you ignorant inbred hillbilly shithead.
What guys like Graham cannot grasp is that gay rights in no way prevents them from carrying on with their lives exactly as before. No one has to divorce their wife and marry a man. No church even has to accept or solemnize gay marriages. It is literally a non-event here in reality, beyond denying them the ability to guilt, shame, and torment gays into being straight ... but those aren't high-value, low-effort converts for them, anyway. The most one can say about society permitting gay marriage is that it prevents churches from discriminating if they rent out their facilities to the general public. But fundies don't tend to do that, anyway.
Over in between their ears, though, it's a different story. There's the fear of collective guilt and punishment, of the whole church being brought down by it, for example. There's the fear of loss of identity, which for them includes opposition to certain things, however pointless and ill-advised. There's the support of their investment in the inerrancy of scripture, and the correctness of their particular interpretation thereof.
Though I tend to think that for the top dogs like Graham, such pronouncements are mostly about stirring the base up and creating status for the leadership as someone they must support (especially, financially) because they alone stand between the church and certain doom. I can't believe Graham actually gives a personal fig whether someone is gay. It is just a useful bogeyman to him.
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10-25-2020, 12:15 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
But... but... what about jesus?
Oh yeah....jesus never said jack shit about it.
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10-25-2020, 01:01 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-23-2020, 11:20 PM)Tres Leches Wrote: (10-21-2020, 07:38 PM)Aliza Wrote: I think this should be applauded. Any step forward is still a step in the right direction.
Indeed. Sorta strange that the Roman Catholic church now seems more progressive than the theocrats and bible-thumpers in the US.
-Teresa
It's a dog-and-pony show, I think.
On hiatus.
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10-25-2020, 01:45 AM
Pope supports same sex unions.
I have and continue to applaud this pope. Next I propose that they require every priest, bishop and whatever other rank they have be married before ordination. Let the pedaphiles apply elsewhere.
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10-25-2020, 01:34 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
The children of god part is dumb but good on him I guess.
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10-25-2020, 02:10 PM
Pope supports same sex unions.
(10-25-2020, 01:34 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The children of god part is dumb but good on him I guess.
Baby steps.
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