Coronavirus... Part of God's Goodness?

[SYZ]

Last week, here in Melbourne, one of our more prominent god-botherers,
Barney Zwartz, had some more of his usual religious apologist bullshit published
in one of our national newspapers, the Melbourne AGE.  I've excerpted part of
his article for its relevance (or non-relevance) to the pandemic [my bolding]:


"Since the pandemic struck, I have meditated on one of my favourite Bible verses, in Paul’s letter to the
Christians in Rome where the Apostle writes that “in all things God works for the good of those who love
him” [Romans chapter 8:28].

This is not a simple proposition, for we can see that those who love God suffer from the pandemic and other
disasters as much as anyone else. The Bible does not promise that Christians will enjoy lives of ease and
comfort—to the contrary, it promises tribulation and disdain.

He clearly means his words to console and edify, to remind believers that in every circumstance and every
affliction God is in control and is ultimately using these for good. In other words, believers are not to be
dismayed or dissuaded by afflictions; they are not proof of God’s disfavour or a challenge to faith. Indeed,
it is a relatively modern concept that 'good' means comfort and absence of problems.  How God works in
all things for good is certainly a mystery."

—Today, a letter to the AGE editor responded appropriately to Zwartz's nonsense:

Spare us the platitudes
The Barney Zwartz Faith column can’t go unchallenged. Basically it’s the old 'don’t blame God for the pandemic
or anything bad because he’s really doing us good but we won’t understand how this works until we’re dead'
argument. Don’t feel sad, be positive. God’s got a plan.

Recently, a carer at my mother’s aged-care facility lost her four-year-old son, killed by a falling tree.

According to Zwartz, this is all for the mother’s benefit. Her excruciating grief is but a temporary (lifelong for her)
price to pay for the inevitable revelation of  "goodness" God enacts for believers.

Zwartz can’t explain random misery and death in a rational way because it has to be a good thing enacted by a
good God. This is his starting point for everything that happens.

Yes, try to look on the bright side, folks, but spare us the platitudes about how this is ultimately good for us.
It is not helping.

—Peter Harris, Preston.  Copyright THE AGE © 2020.

So in one breath, Zwartz says that his god works for the "good" of his believers—by killing lots of them
apparently—but then that same god's handbook "guarantees" tribulations and disdain.  And to top this
contradiction off, he then says that how his god works is a "mystery".  Zwartz also claims that the meaning
of "good" is a "modern concept".

How exactly does this mish-mash of self-contradiction and distortions work in his tiny brain?  How—as a mere
mortal—can he know what his god's ultimate plans are for us anyway?     Are they good or bad?

[mordant]

The basic problem for theists is that god is supposed to bless the righteous and confound the wicked ... yet for any definition of "bless" or "confound" that actually has any meaning, one can easily demonstrate that the wicked are also blessed and the righteous confounded.

In order to make this basic value proposition true, a thing called "positional truth" is deployed in order to allow the disconnect between lived experience and faith-based explanations for lived experience. The NT teaches "we are seated in the heavenlies with Christ" and if one sees life from that perspective, one is wealthy and privileged and protected despite the vicissitudes of life. By faith one sees ultimate closure / resolution / justice, primarily beyond the grave.

This of course is of less than ZERO use THIS side of the grave, and some people eventually figure this out. I certainly did. But if you're (1) sufficiently invested in these teachings and (2) sufficiently lucky, they serve as rationalization for why your are living the "victorious life" and have one over on the unbelievers.

That's it in a nutshell. It sounds ridiculous from the outside, but if you're raised with it and it's all you know and you aren't on the tenterhooks of too many Unfortunate Circumstances, it allows you to believe you've got a great existence courtesy of your faith.

[mordant]

I might also point out that most fundamentalist Christians also believe in group guilt. When something like a pandemic or 9/11 befalls a large group of people, it can be god judging a nation, a city, a denomination, a church, a family, or even mankind as a whole ... wherein all members are equally punished for the sins of some members.

This becomes the explanation for the indiscriminate nature of natural disasters and large man-made catastrophes. God normally doesn't allow such things to happen, but when he's sufficiently pissed off at a GROUP, he allows the group to suffer. Or at a minimum, it removes or negates a sort of umbrella of protection that protects the group as a whole.

Not only does this serve as an explanation for corporate misery, but also as a justification for the fascistic nature of conservative religion -- the need to meddle in the affairs and personal choice of people not even in your group. The need to proselytize, to control, to legislate. Because if you "condone" too much "sin", you might be taken down in the midst of god's wrath, even though personally innocent. Because you didn't sufficiently oppose iniquity in your midst.

[Aliza]

Barney Zwartz???



Nailed it, @Tartarus Sauce!

(Inside joke) 

[Minimalist]

"God" can suck my dick.

[Bcat]

Even if I wasn't an atheist, how can anyone worship a being like this?

[Minimalist]

The same way the residents of Skull Island worshipped King Kong.

They want a god who scares the shit out of them.

[Gwaithmir]

All one has to do is read the Book of Job to understand why there is so much misery in the world. Contrary to what most Christians think, God is really malevolent. He derives his pleasure from the sweet milk or our tears. There is no heavenly paradise awaiting Christians when they die. Regardless of how exemplary their lives were, when they get to the Pearly Gates, God will send them straight to hell for no other reason than seeing that look of shock and betrayal on their faces. 

[Thumpalumpacus]

All one has to do is read the Book of Job to understand why there is so much misery in the world. Contrary to what most Christians think, God is really malevolent. He derives his pleasure from the sweet milk or our tears. There is no heavenly paradise awaiting Christians when they die. Regardless of how exemplary their lives were, when they get to the Pearly Gates, God will send them straight to hell for no other reason than seeing that look of shock and betrayal on their faces. 

"But He loves you."

[Minimalist]

All one has to do is read the Book of Job to understand why there is so much misery in the world.

And that is not even original.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlul_b%C...%C4%93meqi

Ludlul bēl nēmeqi ("I Will Praise the Lord of Wisdom"), also sometimes known in English as The Poem of the Righteous Sufferer, is a Mesopotamian poem (ANET, pp. 434–437) written in Akkadian that concerns itself with the problem of the unjust suffering of an afflicted man, named Šubši-mašrâ-Šakkan (Shubshi-meshre-Shakkan). The author is tormented, but he doesn't know why. He has been faithful in all of his duties to the gods. He speculates that perhaps what is good to man is evil to the gods and vice versa. He is ultimately delivered from his sufferings.[1] It is thought to have been composed during the reign of Kassite king of Babylon Nazi-Maruttaš (ca. 1307–1282 BC), who is mentioned on line 105 of tablet IV.

[Szuchow]

Even if I wasn't an atheist, how can anyone worship a being like this?

If any of numerous genocides did not stop people from worshipping god why should illness with victim count that did not hit million  of cases make them stop? Monstrousness of god isn't a problem to ordinary believer, otherwise he wouldn't worship being that is depicted as genocidal tyrant in it's own holy book.

[Gwaithmir]

Even if I wasn't an atheist, how can anyone worship a being like this?

If any of numerous genocides did not stop people from worshiping god why should illness with victim count that did not hit million  of cases make them stop? Monstrousness of god isn't a problem to ordinary believer, otherwise he wouldn't worship being that is depicted as genocidal tyrant in it's own holy book.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." (Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion)

I had to study selected portions of the (St. Jerome) Bible when I was in Catholic grade school and made this same observation long before I'd ever heard of Richard Dawkins. The Book of Job alone went a long way toward convincing me that Bible God was a tyrannical, narcissistic scumbag unworthy of respect or worship. Reading the Bible was instrumental in my eventually becoming an atheist. 

[Cheerful Charlie]

We have covid-19 virus because of original sin. It is all YOUR fault for being born with original sin, you see?

[Szuchow]

Even if I wasn't an atheist, how can anyone worship a being like this?

If any of numerous genocides did not stop people from worshiping god why should illness with victim count that did not hit million  of cases make them stop? Monstrousness of god isn't a problem to ordinary believer, otherwise he wouldn't worship being that is depicted as genocidal tyrant in it's own holy book.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." (Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion)

I had to study selected portions of the (St. Jerome) Bible when I was in Catholic grade school and made this same observation long before I'd ever heard of Richard Dawkins. The Book of Job alone went a long way toward convincing me that Bible God was a tyrannical, narcissistic scumbag unworthy of respect or worship. Reading the Bible was instrumental in my eventually becoming an atheist. 

God is created in mankind image. One would have to be naïve to deem expect him to be good.

[adey67]

The first questioning of god I ever did as a child of about 9 was to question why the genocidal maniac always got the credit for everything good and took absolutely zero responsibility for anything bad, the Sunday school teacher really didn't like that particular nugget being pointed out I can tell you. Enter Satan, gods "whipping boy" followed by a plethora of ever increasingly convoluted apologetics, all par for the course when you create a perfect deity.

[Cavebear]

The same way the residents of Skull Island worshipped King Kong.

They want a god who scares the shit out of them.

BTW, why did the natives build a gate big enough for Kong to fit through? Don't worry, I don't expect an answer to that...

[Cavebear]

Even if I wasn't an atheist, how can anyone worship a being like this?

If any of numerous genocides did not stop people from worshiping god why should illness with victim count that did not hit million  of cases make them stop? Monstrousness of god isn't a problem to ordinary believer, otherwise he wouldn't worship being that is depicted as genocidal tyrant in it's own holy book.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." (Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion)

I had to study selected portions of the (St. Jerome) Bible when I was in Catholic grade school and made this same observation long before I'd ever heard of Richard Dawkins. The Book of Job alone went a long way toward convincing me that Bible God was a tyrannical, narcissistic scumbag unworthy of respect or worship. Reading the Bible was instrumental in my eventually becoming an atheist. 

It takes both masochists and sadists to worship any deity described in any religious text. Well, any deities that stayed around. I suppose one creating a universe and then leaving wouldn't be too bothersome in a practical sense.

[Cavebear]

We have covid-19 virus because of original sin.  It is all YOUR fault for being born with original sin, you see?

I'll take that as clever snark. I wonder about what you really think sometimes... LOL!

[Cheerful Charlie]

Even if I wasn't an atheist, how can anyone worship a being like this?

Soul building theodicy.  From Ireneus, most famously championed by theologian John Hicks.  Suffering builds character and souls.  So suffering is good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaean_theodicy

Rationalizing this all away is what theology is all about.  Why God does not grant us all a perfect soul that needs no suffering is not answered.  Us atheists and our silly little questions!

[Cheerful Charlie]

We have covid-19 virus because of original sin.  It is all YOUR fault for being born with original sin, you see?

I'll take that as clever snark.  I wonder about what you really think sometimes...  LOL!

Original sin is held to be why there is so much suffering, predation, parasites, deadly bacteria et al created by a perfectly good God by hordes of amateur fundagelical theologians.  Eden was perfect until Adam and Eve screwed up.  Yes, I was snarky, but this is a very real claim from millions of fundagelicals.  If we would all just accept Christ as our savior, all this natural evil would go away.  It is your fault because you refuse to do so.

Genesis 1
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Isaiah 11:6-9
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

[Bucky Ball]

Rationalizing this all away is what theology is all about.  Why God does not grant us all a perfect soul that needs no suffering is not answered.  Us atheists and our silly little questions!

No money or power in that nonsense.