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Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
#26

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 05:51 AM)trdsf Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 04:28 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(09-13-2020, 09:02 PM)Minimalist Wrote: So what we have here are two jesus freaks trying desperately to do CPR on a mummy!

I don't know about a pillar of salt but I bet they left a pile of bullshit.

I find that totally stunning because phys.org is a site that I would have naturally just taken them at their word. My expectation is that they vet these things. This Trinity Southwestern University doesn't even try to pretend that they're accredited and that's totally disgusting. Biola University at least tries. Facepalm

phys.org did also specifically use the phrase "Christian mythology" (emphasis mine) in discussing these findings.  I mean, if the data stands, then the data stands.  An airburst meteor over an Iron Age city is pretty much about as non-divine a case of proto-urban destruction as you can ask for.  No matter how hard they try, they can't make the link saying their god threw the meteor.

If the archeologists were real archeologists, then there findings might carry some clout. I don't know the credentials of the head archeologist, but he disgraces himself professionally working for a totally unaccredited "university." 

Hey, I get it. I'm a theist, and I want very much for there to be some evidence that the stories have some historicity, but I also know that backing into an answer is not how science works. These researchers (if you can call them that) have come to this site, which they understand to be Sodom and Gomorrah, and unfortunately, their credentials suggest that they can't be trusted to examine their findings and build a narrative off what they find rather than find support for their preferred narrative. If phys.org (or the source article from Universe Today) mentioned that this was a peer-reviewed journal, then I missed it. If that's the case, then I'll amend my position.
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#27

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
The Bible is an endless series of dick-sizing stories.
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#28

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 09:50 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The Bible is an endless series of dick-sizing stories.

My favorite is "Lot's daughters seduced their Dad in a cave. Here is a cave. It must be THE CAVE. Because there is a pillar of salt nearby and that must be Lot's wife. So Soddom and Gemmorah must be nearby. And because Soddom and Gommorah are there nearby, it must be THE CAVE, and it has to be where they were because there is Lot's wife as a pillar of salt. Proof!"

ROFL2
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#29

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
They were living in town, so they didn't have a tent. Evicted from town, they found the only shelter available. Then they proceeded to get shiggy.
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#30

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:23 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: They were living in town, so they didn't have a tent. Evicted from town, they found the only shelter available. Then they proceeded to get shiggy.

I bet "Shiggy With Dad" could become a new hit streaming series. The newest fake Reality Show.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#31

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
Will forward to the cousins.
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#32

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 06:14 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: God struck Sodom with a meteor!   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Yeah, and I'm King Isildur.  Dodgy
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#33

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:36 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 06:14 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: God struck Sodom with a meteor!   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Yeah, and I'm King Isildur.  Dodgy

You REALLY should have thrown that ring into the lava... Saved a lot of peoples...
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#34

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:40 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:36 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 06:14 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: God struck Sodom with a meteor!   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Yeah, and I'm King Isildur.  Dodgy

You REALLY should have thrown that ring into the lava...  Saved a lot of peoples...

...and trees.
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#35

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:41 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:40 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:36 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: Yeah, and I'm King Isildur.  Dodgy

You REALLY should have thrown that ring into the lava...  Saved a lot of peoples...

...and trees.

From Sauron or Saruman?
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#36

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:40 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:36 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 06:14 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: God struck Sodom with a meteor!   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Yeah, and I'm King Isildur.  Dodgy

You REALLY should have thrown that ring into the lava...  Saved a lot of peoples...

But then I wouldn't have had a basis for my story Trahald the Laborer, which explores what might have happened if Golum had survived the destruction of The One Ring.  Winking
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#37

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:46 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:40 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:36 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: Yeah, and I'm King Isildur.  Dodgy

You REALLY should have thrown that ring into the lava...  Saved a lot of peoples...

But then I wouldn't have had a basis for my story Trahald the Laborer, which explores what might have happened if Golum had survived the destruction of The One Ring.  Winking

Well, then you would be getting into alternate reality. Winking
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#38

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:51 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:46 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:40 AM)Cavebear Wrote: You REALLY should have thrown that ring into the lava...  Saved a lot of peoples...

But then I wouldn't have had a basis for my story Trahald the Laborer, which explores what might have happened if Golum had survived the destruction of The One Ring.  Winking

Well, then you would be getting into alternate reality.  Winking

Well, alternate realities is what fan fiction is all about.  Nod
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#39

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 11:01 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:51 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:46 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: But then I wouldn't have had a basis for my story Trahald the Laborer, which explores what might have happened if Golum had survived the destruction of The One Ring.  Winking

Well, then you would be getting into alternate reality.  Winking

Well, alternate realities is what fan fiction is all about.  Nod

"The willing suspension of disbelief". And I do allow myself that.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#40

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:36 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 06:14 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: God struck Sodom with a meteor!   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Yeah, and I'm King Isildur.  Dodgy

No, you are a liar, GANDALF Tongue
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#41

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 11:35 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 10:36 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 06:14 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: God struck Sodom with a meteor!   Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Yeah, and I'm King Isildur.  Dodgy

No, you are a liar, GANDALF  Tongue

Did they actually meet? I think the magicians came later.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#42

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
The term in archaeology is etiological.

Quote:Etiology (pronounced /iːtiˈɒlədʒi/; alternatively: aetiology or ætiology) is the study of causation or origination. The word is derived from the Greek αἰτιολογία (aitiología) "giving a reason for" (αἰτία, aitía, "cause"; and -λογία, -logía).[1] More completely, etiology is the study of the causes, origins, or reasons behind the way that things are, or the way they function, or it can refer to the causes themselves.[2] The word is commonly used in medicine (pertaining to causes of disease) and in philosophy, but also in physics, psychology, government, geography, spatial analysis, theology, and biology, in reference to the causes or origins of various phenomena.

In the past, when many physical phenomena were not well understood or when histories were not recorded, myths often arose to provide etiologies. Thus, an etiological myth, or origin myth, is a myth that has arisen, been told over time or written to explain the origins of various social or natural phenomena. For example, Virgil's Aeneid is a national myth written to explain and glorify the origins of the Roman Empire. In theology, many religions have creation myths explaining the origins of the world or its relationship to believers.


So could an asteroid - or a volcanic event (the Dead Sea sits right on the joint between the African and Arabian plates ) could easily have blasted the region in remote antiquity and then centuries later some asshole is walking along and his kid says "Daddy what happened here?"  And Daddy, not wanting to look like a shithead, makes some stuff up.  In such ways are religions born!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#43

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 04:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: The term in archaeology is etiological.

Quote:Etiology (pronounced /iːtiˈɒlədʒi/; alternatively: aetiology or ætiology) is the study of causation or origination. The word is derived from the Greek αἰτιολογία (aitiología) "giving a reason for" (αἰτία, aitía, "cause"; and -λογία, -logía).[1] More completely, etiology is the study of the causes, origins, or reasons behind the way that things are, or the way they function, or it can refer to the causes themselves.[2] The word is commonly used in medicine (pertaining to causes of disease) and in philosophy, but also in physics, psychology, government, geography, spatial analysis, theology, and biology, in reference to the causes or origins of various phenomena.

In the past, when many physical phenomena were not well understood or when histories were not recorded, myths often arose to provide etiologies. Thus, an etiological myth, or origin myth, is a myth that has arisen, been told over time or written to explain the origins of various social or natural phenomena. For example, Virgil's Aeneid is a national myth written to explain and glorify the origins of the Roman Empire. In theology, many religions have creation myths explaining the origins of the world or its relationship to believers.


So could an asteroid - or a volcanic event (the Dead Sea sits right on the joint between the African and Arabian plates ) could easily have blasted the region in remote antiquity and then centuries later some asshole is walking along and his kid says "Daddy what happened here?"  And Daddy, not wanting to look like a shithead, makes some stuff up.  In such ways are religions born!

ROFL2  Religion- making shit up for millennia! Has a nice ring to it.
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#44

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 06:11 PM)Fireball Wrote:
(09-14-2020, 04:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: The term in archaeology is etiological.

Quote:Etiology (pronounced /iːtiˈɒlədʒi/; alternatively: aetiology or ætiology) is the study of causation or origination. The word is derived from the Greek αἰτιολογία (aitiología) "giving a reason for" (αἰτία, aitía, "cause"; and -λογία, -logía).[1] More completely, etiology is the study of the causes, origins, or reasons behind the way that things are, or the way they function, or it can refer to the causes themselves.[2] The word is commonly used in medicine (pertaining to causes of disease) and in philosophy, but also in physics, psychology, government, geography, spatial analysis, theology, and biology, in reference to the causes or origins of various phenomena.

In the past, when many physical phenomena were not well understood or when histories were not recorded, myths often arose to provide etiologies. Thus, an etiological myth, or origin myth, is a myth that has arisen, been told over time or written to explain the origins of various social or natural phenomena. For example, Virgil's Aeneid is a national myth written to explain and glorify the origins of the Roman Empire. In theology, many religions have creation myths explaining the origins of the world or its relationship to believers.


So could an asteroid - or a volcanic event (the Dead Sea sits right on the joint between the African and Arabian plates ) could easily have blasted the region in remote antiquity and then centuries later some asshole is walking along and his kid says "Daddy what happened here?"  And Daddy, not wanting to look like a shithead, makes some stuff up.  In such ways are religions born!

ROFL2  Religion- making shit up for millennia! Has a nice ring to it.

When we humans were REALLY stupid, we thought every lightening bolt was thrown by a deity. Every tree that fell on a hut was because someone was pissed at you. If you got ill, it was that you affronted a god.

Then we figured out that some parts of nature were caused dumbly or at least randomly. Fires, lightning.

As more time passed and we rather smart primates looked around, we found more stuff that didn't need a deity.

Today, most people think there is ONE (though they argue about which it is). The next step will be to get rid of that last one.

I doubt I'll live that long, but it doesn't really matter to me. I tossed off that idea in my teens 55 years ago or so.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#45

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
Quote: When we humans were REALLY stupid


Why did you use the past tense?

[Image: main-qimg-35bf054d94880aa410df8c8f79a14a1a]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#46

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-14-2020, 10:46 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:When we humans were REALLY stupid


Why did you use the past tense?

[Image: main-qimg-35bf054d94880aa410df8c8f79a14a1a]

I distinguish between "stupid" (not able to think well) and "ignorant" (not having knowledge). We used to be "stupid". Today, many of us are "ignorant". The latter is less understandable to me.
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#47

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
Okay, so I found the original paper on ResearchGate; it was presented at the annual meeting of the American Schools of Oriental Research in 2018, which organization is non-religious, focusing on Middle East studies.  Obviously, they bump up against religious themes a lot considering their research area, but the organization does not appear to have an official religious slant one way or another.

I have skimmed the paper.  If the lead author or any of his collaborators have any personal opinions about the findings "confirming" a biblical story, it has been left out of the paper entirely.  Its conclusion is properly tentative:

Quote:CONCLUSION: Our team originally discovered a directionality in the pattern of destruction at Tall el-Hammam which motivated a sensitivity to the material evidence that we were finding. A few serendipitous discoveries of what turned out to be partially melted pottery sherds and local rocks caused us to collect and send off samples for analysis. These samples turned out to be consistent with an impact origin and not with Middle Bronze Age anthropogenic activity. Subsequent analysis continues to support a high-temperature Event best attributed to a meteoritic airburst similar to Tunguska based upon the proxies uncovered to date. Research continues with the objective of finding evidence to more convincingly confirm the impact narrative. This is a work in progress.

Like I said before, now they need a confirmatory—or otherwise—study.  Basically, whatever the authors may say about its meaning outside the journals and professional organizations is their problem.  The paper itself is essentially non-objectionable in form, or at least I don't see anything to disqualify it prima facie.
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#48

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-13-2020, 08:34 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: https://phys.org/news/2018-12-meteor-air...-dead.html

...
A meteor that exploded in the air near the Dead Sea 3,700 years ago may have wiped out communities, killed tens of thousands of people, and provided the kernel of truth to an old Bible story. The area is in modern-day Jordan, in a 25 km wide circular plain called Middle Ghor. Most of the evidence for this event comes from archaeological evidence excavated at the Bronze Age city of Tall el-Hammam located in that area, which some scholars say is the city of Sodom from the Bible. 
...
Tall el-Hammam was a thriving city state occupying Middle Ghor. The civilization had occupied the area for over 2,500 years. The city itself held the administrative center of the kingdom, and was protected by a perimeter wall up to 30m (100 ft) thick and up to 15m (50 ft.) high, for a linear distance of over 2.5km. The wall held multiple gates, towers, and likely other defensive features. But all that was obliterated when the meteor pierced the atmosphere and exploded over the area.
...

An old story, but interesting.

I made a phone call.

Jesus said, "Bullshit!"
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#49

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
(09-15-2020, 01:18 AM)trdsf Wrote: Okay, so I found the original paper on ResearchGate; it was presented at the annual meeting of the American Schools of Oriental Research in 2018, which organization is non-religious, focusing on Middle East studies.  Obviously, they bump up against religious themes a lot considering their research area, but the organization does not appear to have an official religious slant one way or another.

I have skimmed the paper.  If the lead author or any of his collaborators have any personal opinions about the findings "confirming" a biblical story, it has been left out of the paper entirely.  Its conclusion is properly tentative:

Quote:CONCLUSION: Our team originally discovered a directionality in the pattern of destruction at Tall el-Hammam which motivated a sensitivity to the material evidence that we were finding. A few serendipitous discoveries of what turned out to be partially melted pottery sherds and local rocks caused us to collect and send off samples for analysis. These samples turned out to be consistent with an impact origin and not with Middle Bronze Age anthropogenic activity. Subsequent analysis continues to support a high-temperature Event best attributed to a meteoritic airburst similar to Tunguska based upon the proxies uncovered to date. Research continues with the objective of finding evidence to more convincingly confirm the impact narrative. This is a work in progress.

Like I said before, now they need a confirmatory—or otherwise—study.  Basically, whatever the authors may say about its meaning outside the journals and professional organizations is their problem.  The paper itself is essentially non-objectionable in form, or at least I don't see anything to disqualify it prima facie.

If the evidence points to an air burst, I don't think it in any way substantiates the literal interpretation of the story of Sodom. It'd be far more likely, if there's any connection at all, for it to have served as inspiration for the fable, probably via old handed down stories of fire "raining down from heaven" countless generations prior. It would be a perfect framework for the author of the Sodom story to embellish and provide an "explanation" for an event that, to the primitives of that time and place, could only be made sense of as some kind of visitation of the gods.

So it presents no problem for me as a person who regards the story as a fable, since it doesn't substantiate the Biblical account one iota. But you can count on god-botherers to be all over it; sounds like some already are.
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#50

Biblical Sodom Was Destroyed By Meteor Astronomers Say
I haven't read the paper, but if it were an air burst, perhaps chemical signatures would be found , similar to the Tanguska event.
(Maybe the paper talks about that ?)

"Expeditions sent to the area in the 1950s and 1960s found microscopic silicate and magnetite spheres in siftings of the soil. Similar spheres were predicted to exist in the felled trees, although they could not be detected by contemporary means. Later expeditions did identify such spheres in the resin of the trees. Chemical analysis showed that the spheres contained high proportions of nickel relative to iron, which is also found in meteorites, leading to the conclusion they were of extraterrestrial origin. The concentration of the spheres in different regions of the soil was also found to be consistent with the expected distribution of debris from a meteoroid air burst. Later studies of the spheres found unusual ratios of numerous other metals relative to the surrounding environment, which was taken as further evidence of their extraterrestrial origin.

Chemical analysis of peat bogs from the area also revealed numerous anomalies considered consistent with an impact event. The isotopic signatures of carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen at the layer of the bogs corresponding to 1908 were found to be inconsistent with the isotopic ratios measured in the adjacent layers, and this abnormality was not found in bogs located outside the area. The region of the bogs showing these anomalous signatures also contains an unusually high proportion of iridium, similar to the iridium layer found in the Cretaceous–Paleogene boundary. These unusual proportions are believed to result from debris from the falling body that deposited in the bogs. The nitrogen is believed to have been deposited as acid rain, a suspected fallout from the explosion." (Wiki - Tanguska)
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