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Attention Science Nerds
#1

Attention Science Nerds
I was hoping some of you super smart science people in here could help me.   Smile I've been buying books on science for my little nephew and most of them have been very well done.  Recently I purchased a children's book for him on the Big Bang.  I usually read the books I buy for him first to make sure they are age appropriate and that there aren't any religious undertones sprinkled throughout the books.  

I have working knowledge of the Big Bang, but I don't claim to be an expert by any means.  However, in a read through of the book, I noticed (what appear to me) to be two errors.  I was just curious as to your opinions as to whether or not they are errors as I don't want to give a book to my nephew that has incorrect information.  I would also like to contact the publisher to correct the errors so they don't mislead other children into thinking X when the answer is really Y.  But as I say, I am not an expert and only have working knowledge of the Big Bang, so I could be off in my assessment.  

The first of what I think might be an error is the book stating that the singularity "exploded" with a big bang.  It's my understanding that the Big Bang was not an explosion, but rather an expansion of extremely condensed material.

The second of what I think is an error in the book is a part stating that the singularity "blew" itself up like a bubble, leaving empty space inside the bubble. The authors then go on to say the universe then filled up the inside of the bubble.  This part seems misleading to me even though I'm assuming they're talking about inflation.  

Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated.  And as I say, maybe there are no errors, but it just seemed that way to me.  Smile
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#2

Attention Science Nerds
(09-07-2020, 06:27 PM)Bcat Wrote: The first of what I think might be an error is the book stating that the singularity "exploded" with a big bang.  It's my understanding that the Big Bang was not an explosion, but rather an expansion of extremely condensed material.
An expansion, yes, but expansion of space itself. The *material* (not in terms of classical matter!) didnt move, its the space in which the material was embedded, that expanded.


(09-07-2020, 06:27 PM)Bcat Wrote: The second of what I think is an error in the book is a part stating that the singularity "blew" itself up like a bubble, leaving empty space inside the bubble.
Complete nonsense.
When the singularity inflated, the matter was so dense and hot that it was opaque to photons and we dont have any radiation giving us information about this time. It was anything but empty, rather the exact opposite.


(09-07-2020, 06:27 PM)Bcat Wrote: The authors then go on to say the universe then filled up the inside of the bubble.
Simplification to the brink of complete nonsense, continuation of above.

The sigularity expanded/inflated within a tiny fraction of a second into something lightyears across. Yet matter was so dense and temperature so hot that it took several hundred thousands of years (for the universe to expand further and) for matter to form as we know, for the universe becoming transparent enough to photons so that the cosmic microwave beackground could form.

For the first several hundred thousands of years the matter in the universe was so dense and hot that it was more like plasma, nuclei not able to catch electrons, photons (although they are almost *nothing* and can permeate almost anything) not being able to escape, and not being able to give us information. The universe was a big fat thick soup utterly opaque to anything.
R.I.P. Hannes
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#3

Attention Science Nerds
(09-07-2020, 06:27 PM)Bcat Wrote: ... the singularity "blew" itself up like a bubble, leaving empty space inside the bubble. The authors then go on to say.....

... that's where this guy goes...........

[Image: giphy.gif]
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#4

Attention Science Nerds
I think a lovely simplification would be one of those self-inflating life rafts. Everything is there the gas to inflate it the raft itself. Of course the opaque and solid raft walls are not a good analogy for anything, but it still serves to show the expansion of materials that are previously all in one spot. Perhaps we can just use those walls to signify known space?
The key to the analogy is that the Compressed Gas represents all the matter.
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#5

Attention Science Nerds
(09-07-2020, 06:51 PM)brewerb Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 06:27 PM)Bcat Wrote: ... the singularity "blew" itself up like a bubble, leaving empty space inside the bubble. The authors then go on to say.....

... that's where this guy goes...........

[Image: giphy.gif]

ROFL2
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#6

Attention Science Nerds
(09-07-2020, 06:27 PM)Bcat Wrote: I was hoping some of you super smart science people in here could help me.   Smile I've been buying books on science for my little nephew and most of them have been very well done.  Recently I purchased a children's book for him on the Big Bang.  I usually read the books I buy for him first to make sure they are age appropriate and that there aren't any religious undertones sprinkled throughout the books.  

I have working knowledge of the Big Bang, but I don't claim to be an expert by any means.  However, in a read through of the book, I noticed (what appear to me) to be two errors.  I was just curious as to your opinions as to whether or not they are errors as I don't want to give a book to my nephew that has incorrect information.  I would also like to contact the publisher to correct the errors so they don't mislead other children into thinking X when the answer is really Y.  But as I say, I am not an expert and only have working knowledge of the Big Bang, so I could be off in my assessment.  

The first of what I think might be an error is the book stating that the singularity "exploded" with a big bang.  It's my understanding that the Big Bang was not an explosion, but rather an expansion of extremely condensed material.

The second of what I think is an error in the book is a part stating that the singularity "blew" itself up like a bubble, leaving empty space inside the bubble. The authors then go on to say the universe then filled up the inside of the bubble.  This part seems misleading to me even though I'm assuming they're talking about inflation.  

Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated.  And as I say, maybe there are no errors, but it just seemed that way to me.  Smile

It was not an "explosion" though some writers find it convenient to describe it that way. In current theory, it was an expansion of timespace. But don't ask me to explain that. I can't, Sagan couldn't and Hawking died trying to understand it.

The best I can understand the second is that inflation from a singularity was not perfectly uniform. Random events and perhaps quarkian or quantum illogic may have been but something made the TINIEST lump and it all went from there.

You are more likely to be asked "what did the universe expand INTO"? That bothers me to this day. I cannot conceive of "something" without "more something" around it. Good luck with that. The simple answer is that the material existence is both real and not. The complicated answer is "we don't understand that yet".

Maybe explain to your nephew that the scientific method asks questions but cannot provide all the answers "yet".

Cheers on your adventure of answering unanswerable questions.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#7

Attention Science Nerds
"How The Universe Works" series on the Science Channel would help the kid.
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
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#8

Attention Science Nerds
(09-07-2020, 07:01 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: "How The Universe Works" series on the Science Channel would help the kid.

A good series. I have most of it on DVD but I think I've missed a season. If it is informational I probably have it. I hate commercials and not being able to "play from last view".

BTW, the DVD Neil De Grasse version of 'Cosmos' drives me nuts. The audio is slightly off the video and it won't let me
"start from last viewing". On the other hand, when I first heard they were remaking 'Cosmos' I immediately thought" De Grasse! So I put up with the annoyance.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#9

Attention Science Nerds
I think while those two points aren't technically correct to my understanding, they seem to simplify the matter in an age appropriate way.
Personally I would explain and model those things differently so yea technically speaking not correct but a good foundation I guess?
Though I would probably not want to seed the information in the kid this way because the foundation is kinda incorrect I guess. Then again seeing how many adults cannot move onward from this outdated model...
2+2=4
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#10

Attention Science Nerds
Well I think they are trying to make something relatable to small children and something is inherently going to be lost in that effort. I don't think it's deliberately nefarious or wrong, but the author may not understand the subject matter as well as they could and isn't creative enough to come up with better metaphors.

For example the expansion is technically not an explosion, but a relatively rapid expansion from a tiny space to a huge space has enough similarities to an explosion that one could be forgiven for using the term in the service of brevity.

I'd tend to search for something more impressive though.

How old is your nephew? If he's at least 9 or 10 and curious about the topic, I'd think he could handle something a little more nuanced than this. At that age I was ravenous for details and full of questions.

If he's younger than that, then perhaps there's no harm in getting the rough concept across in this way, if you can't find anything better.
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#11

Attention Science Nerds
(09-12-2020, 05:51 PM)mordant Wrote: Well I think they are trying to make something relatable to small children and something is inherently going to be lost in that effort. I don't think it's deliberately nefarious or wrong, but the author may not understand the subject matter as well as they could and isn't creative enough to come up with better metaphors.

For example the expansion is technically not an explosion, but a relatively rapid expansion from a tiny space to a huge space has enough similarities to an explosion that one could be forgiven for using the term in the service of brevity.

I'd tend to search for something more impressive though.

How old is your nephew? If he's at least 9 or 10 and curious about the topic, I'd think he could handle something a little more nuanced than this. At that age I was ravenous for details and full of questions.

If he's younger than that, then perhaps there's no harm in getting the rough concept across in this way, if you can't find anything better.

He's 6, but I really want to make sure I don't plant a seed in his mind for him to latch onto with wrong information.  I don't think the authors were trying to be nefarious and I think they were trying to make things accessible to younger readers, however, I do feel they also need to be scientifically accurate if they are creating a science book for kids.
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#12

Attention Science Nerds
(09-07-2020, 06:27 PM)Bcat Wrote: The first of what I think might be an error is the book stating that the singularity "exploded" with a big bang.  It's my understanding that the Big Bang was not an explosion, but rather an expansion of extremely condensed material.
You would be correct.  Metaphorically, you might be able to refer to it as an 'explosion' of space and time.  The main problem I have always had with depictions of the Big Bang on science programs is that they always show it from the outside...

(09-07-2020, 06:27 PM)Bcat Wrote: The second of what I think is an error in the book is a part stating that the singularity "blew" itself up like a bubble, leaving empty space inside the bubble. The authors then go on to say the universe then filled up the inside of the bubble.  This part seems misleading to me even though I'm assuming they're talking about inflation.
Well, empty space only in the sense that it was a dense quark soup, then a dense plasma, and then an expanding 'cloud' of hydrogen and helium (and minute traces of lithium).  Empty in that there wasn't anything in it that we typically think of as an object.  But misleading, yes.  The universe had contents, but not really much in the way of things.  If they are talking about inflation, it doesn't sound like they're doing it very well.

This is kind of a problem I've had with science books intended for children.  I know you can't hit a ten year old with the full field equation for General Relativity and expect any of it to stick.

But you can pare things down more carefully and get the important points across without giving misleading models.  And I think stuff that's not known should be more carefully labeled, and labeled encouragingly—something along the lines of "Everything there is was squished down into a point smaller than the period at the end of this sentence.  There are many ideas why it suddenly expanded, but no one knows for sure yet.  Maybe you could figure it out some day!"

Yeah, I'm not a writer for children, but you get the idea.  I really do think that you can get young people interested in science with just six words: "I don't know.  Let's find out!"  The study of science needs to be interactive and engaging.
"Aliens?  Us?  Is this one of your Earth jokes?"  -- Kro-Bar, The Lost Skeleton of Cadavra
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#13

Attention Science Nerds
(09-12-2020, 06:15 PM)Bcat Wrote:
(09-12-2020, 05:51 PM)mordant Wrote: Well I think they are trying to make something relatable to small children and something is inherently going to be lost in that effort. I don't think it's deliberately nefarious or wrong, but the author may not understand the subject matter as well as they could and isn't creative enough to come up with better metaphors.

For example the expansion is technically not an explosion, but a relatively rapid expansion from a tiny space to a huge space has enough similarities to an explosion that one could be forgiven for using the term in the service of brevity.

I'd tend to search for something more impressive though.

How old is your nephew? If he's at least 9 or 10 and curious about the topic, I'd think he could handle something a little more nuanced than this. At that age I was ravenous for details and full of questions.

If he's younger than that, then perhaps there's no harm in getting the rough concept across in this way, if you can't find anything better.

He's 6, but I really want to make sure I don't plant a seed in his mind for him to latch onto with wrong information.  I don't think the authors were trying to be nefarious and I think they were trying to make things accessible to younger readers, however, I do feel they also need to be scientifically accurate if they are creating a science book for kids.

What can I say; you're a VERY good aunt. Since my mother conceived me at age 39, my aunts were all older ladies whose command of technology was limited to working dial telephones and maybe typewriters. I'm dating myself ... point is, I got nothing from them but cheek-pinches. I'd have killed for science books. Instead, I got The Rattle-Rattle Train.
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#14

Attention Science Nerds
(09-07-2020, 06:54 PM)Cavebear Wrote: You are more likely to be asked "what did the universe expand INTO"?  That bothers me to this day.   I cannot conceive of "something" without "more something" around it.   Good luck with that.  The simple answer is that the material existence is both real and not.  The complicated answer is "we don't understand that yet".
This question was responsible for one of those head-'splodey moments with my roommate.

He understood that the universe was expanding, but couldn't get the concept of what it was expanding into.  Which, yeah, is a fair question.

So I went (incorrectly) with the old raisin bread analogy, you know, how all the raisins inside it expand away from each other without any one raisin being the center of expansion.

He: But it's expanding into the kitchen.

Me: There is no kitchen!

He: Then it's expanding into the back yard!

Me:
[Image: il_570xN.485266383_7xsw.jpg]
"Aliens?  Us?  Is this one of your Earth jokes?"  -- Kro-Bar, The Lost Skeleton of Cadavra
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#15

Attention Science Nerds
The key to explaining our ignorance is making sure he understands that before a certain time (Planck-time, to get a little technical), the current "laws" of the Universe did not operate as they do now. As a result, our current models simply cannot explain what happened.
On hiatus.
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#16

Attention Science Nerds
(09-12-2020, 06:41 PM)trdsf Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 06:54 PM)Cavebear Wrote: You are more likely to be asked "what did the universe expand INTO"?  That bothers me to this day.   I cannot conceive of "something" without "more something" around it.   Good luck with that.  The simple answer is that the material existence is both real and not.  The complicated answer is "we don't understand that yet".
This question was responsible for one of those head-'splodey moments with my roommate.

He understood that the universe was expanding, but couldn't get the concept of what it was expanding into.  Which, yeah, is a fair question.

So I went (incorrectly) with the old raisin bread analogy, you know, how all the raisins inside it expand away from each other without any one raisin being the center of expansion.

He: But it's expanding into the kitchen.

Me: There is no kitchen!

He: Then it's expanding into the back yard!

Me:
[Image: il_570xN.485266383_7xsw.jpg]

Personally I don't think there's any way a human mind can understand the expansion of space. We can't even comprehend the vast distances of space.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” -Carl Sagan.
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#17

Attention Science Nerds
I'm coming to this post somewhat late but wanted to add something.

I know nothing of the big bang theory but I'm a bit familiar with evolutionary theory. Any theory in science is an accumulation of knowledge about the natural processes of our planet and beyond. A theory is not a database of facts or truths but an explanation of a process we know happens and can observe. In the case of evolution, we know this occurs and has been going on for a long time. Only the most stubborn creationist would deny this. What evolutionary theory focuses on is how how and why this happens. Not all scientists agree on the mechanisms that drive evolution but that's not really important. What matters for me is reading about all the different ideas people bring to this study because it puts us closer to a more comprehensive understanding of our evolutionary past. For me, science is not about the study of what's true, that's what philosophy is for. Science is a discovery project in search of knowledge. Science does not instruct on WHAT to think but HOW to think. I suspect that any creditable source on big bang theory should not be judged for truth but the quality of the content with regards to scientific research. If the methods are sound and meaningful data is responsibly provided, that's what science is supposed to do. If science settled on an indisputable foundation of truth it would become just as dogmatic as religion. We don't want that.
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#18

Attention Science Nerds
Don't confuse truth with fact or accuracy.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#19

Attention Science Nerds
@JimBones: A theory is not just an explanation of a process, or observed facts, though. It is an explanation that has been supported either by replicable experiments or by newer discoveries which buttress a hypothesis.

Mechanisms for this or that hypothesis may be supported or discounted by newer observations or discoveries.

I've yet to find a truth discovered by philosophy, but I suppose that depends upon how one might define "truth". Are we talking about what is true in objective reality? Or are we talking about emotional truths (for instance, the Golden Rule)? There are different connotations of that word "truth" which render it malleable, when one doesn't draw such distinctions.

It is true, in reality, that I own an Ibanez guitar. It is true to me that this guitar is a great guitar for the price I paid. However, the former is a fact of reality (it's sitting in my house as I type), while the latter is a fact about my opinion, which is not necessarily shared by other guitarists.
On hiatus.
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#20

Attention Science Nerds
(10-15-2020, 07:11 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: @JimBones: A theory is not just an explanation of a process, or observed facts, though. It is an explanation that has been supported either by replicable experiments or by newer discoveries which buttress a hypothesis.

Mechanisms for this or that hypothesis may be supported or discounted by newer observations or discoveries.

I've yet to find a truth discovered by philosophy, but I suppose that depends upon how one might define "truth". Are we talking about what is true in objective reality? Or are we talking about emotional truths (for instance, the Golden Rule)? There are different connotations of that word "truth" which render it malleable, when one doesn't draw such distinctions.

It is true, in reality, that I own an Ibanez guitar. It is true to me that this guitar is a great guitar for the price I paid. However, the former is a fact of reality (it's sitting in my house as I type), while the latter is a fact about my opinion, which is not necessarily shared by other guitarists.

I was responding to the original post whereby there was some confusion regarding the source content of big bang theory. I responded by trying to highlight the purpose of science, to learn. Part of the enjoyment of science, for me, comes from reading about the variety of ideas that people come up with and then comparing these ideas to see what makes the most sense. My post did not include a lecture on the mechanics of scientific methodology or the purpose and/or structure of scientific theory because I assumed the reader would not enjoy being told what they already know. I don't appreciate this type of exchange so I avoid subjecting others to it.
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#21

Attention Science Nerds
(10-15-2020, 07:51 PM)JimBones Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 07:11 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: @JimBones: A theory is not just an explanation of a process, or observed facts, though. It is an explanation that has been supported either by replicable experiments or by newer discoveries which buttress a hypothesis.

Mechanisms for this or that hypothesis may be supported or discounted by newer observations or discoveries.

I've yet to find a truth discovered by philosophy, but I suppose that depends upon how one might define "truth". Are we talking about what is true in objective reality? Or are we talking about emotional truths (for instance, the Golden Rule)? There are different connotations of that word "truth" which render it malleable, when one doesn't draw such distinctions.

It is true, in reality, that I own an Ibanez guitar. It is true to me that this guitar is a great guitar for the price I paid. However, the former is a fact of reality (it's sitting in my house as I type), while the latter is a fact about my opinion, which is not necessarily shared by other guitarists.

I was responding to the original post whereby there was some confusion regarding the source content of big bang theory. I responded by trying to highlight the purpose of science, to learn. Part of the enjoyment of science, for me, comes from reading about the variety of ideas that people come up with and then comparing these ideas to see what makes the most sense. My post did not include a lecture on the mechanics of scientific methodology or the purpose and/or structure of scientific theory because I assumed the reader would not enjoy being told what they already know. I don't appreciate this type of exchange so I avoid subjecting others to it.

I appreciate what you are saying, but I was looking for the current accepted mainstream view on the Big Bang.  I wasn’t really looking to compare and contrast various past ideas on the Big Bang and then pick whichever one made the most sense to me (a lay person) to share with my nephew.
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#22

Attention Science Nerds
(10-15-2020, 08:03 PM)Bcat Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 07:51 PM)JimBones Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 07:11 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: @JimBones: A theory is not just an explanation of a process, or observed facts, though. It is an explanation that has been supported either by replicable experiments or by newer discoveries which buttress a hypothesis.

Mechanisms for this or that hypothesis may be supported or discounted by newer observations or discoveries.

I've yet to find a truth discovered by philosophy, but I suppose that depends upon how one might define "truth". Are we talking about what is true in objective reality? Or are we talking about emotional truths (for instance, the Golden Rule)? There are different connotations of that word "truth" which render it malleable, when one doesn't draw such distinctions.

It is true, in reality, that I own an Ibanez guitar. It is true to me that this guitar is a great guitar for the price I paid. However, the former is a fact of reality (it's sitting in my house as I type), while the latter is a fact about my opinion, which is not necessarily shared by other guitarists.

I was responding to the original post whereby there was some confusion regarding the source content of big bang theory. I responded by trying to highlight the purpose of science, to learn. Part of the enjoyment of science, for me, comes from reading about the variety of ideas that people come up with and then comparing these ideas to see what makes the most sense. My post did not include a lecture on the mechanics of scientific methodology or the purpose and/or structure of scientific theory because I assumed the reader would not enjoy being told what they already know. I don't appreciate this type of exchange so I avoid subjecting others to it.

I appreciate what you are saying, but I was looking for the current accepted mainstream view on the Big Bang.  I wasn’t really looking to compare and contrast various past ideas on the Big Bang and then pick whichever one made the most sense to me (a lay person) to share with my nephew.

Awesome. Let us know what you come up with. I know nothing of this topic and could use a general overview myself.
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#23

Attention Science Nerds
(10-15-2020, 07:51 PM)JimBones Wrote: I was responding to the original post whereby there was some confusion regarding the source content of big bang theory. I responded by trying to highlight the purpose of science, to learn. Part of the enjoyment of science, for me, comes from reading about the variety of ideas that people come up with and then comparing these ideas to see what makes the most sense. My post did not include a lecture on the mechanics of scientific methodology or the purpose and/or structure of scientific theory because I assumed the reader would not enjoy being told what they already know. I don't appreciate this type of exchange so I avoid subjecting others to it.

Sorry if my reply came across as a "lecture" on the scientific method. As you might judge from weight of verbiage, my question was more along the lines of what we define as "truth", and how such a definition might be explicated. I don't know that philosophy has discovered any important truths (which I define as "facts about the objective reality we inhabit", in this context) and was curious.

Has philosophy (contra science) identified any truths about the Big Bang?
On hiatus.
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#24

Attention Science Nerds
(10-15-2020, 08:19 PM)JimBones Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 08:03 PM)Bcat Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 07:51 PM)JimBones Wrote: I was responding to the original post whereby there was some confusion regarding the source content of big bang theory. I responded by trying to highlight the purpose of science, to learn. Part of the enjoyment of science, for me, comes from reading about the variety of ideas that people come up with and then comparing these ideas to see what makes the most sense. My post did not include a lecture on the mechanics of scientific methodology or the purpose and/or structure of scientific theory because I assumed the reader would not enjoy being told what they already know. I don't appreciate this type of exchange so I avoid subjecting others to it.

I appreciate what you are saying, but I was looking for the current accepted mainstream view on the Big Bang.  I wasn’t really looking to compare and contrast various past ideas on the Big Bang and then pick whichever one made the most sense to me (a lay person) to share with my nephew.

Awesome. Let us know what you come up with. I know nothing of this topic and could use a general overview myself.

Well, I provided a basic framework in my OP (original post) and the other members in this thread did a really good job of filling in the rest.  So maybe a good point for you to start would be to read their posts. Smile  This thread was intended for my nephew who is 6, so I don't think the books I have on that would be suitable for you lol They're geared to a 6 year old. Big Grin  Gawdzilla suggested "How The Universe Works" on the Science Channel.  You might find that helpful in taking your interest further to start.  Smile
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#25

Attention Science Nerds
(10-15-2020, 08:27 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(10-15-2020, 07:51 PM)JimBones Wrote: I was responding to the original post whereby there was some confusion regarding the source content of big bang theory. I responded by trying to highlight the purpose of science, to learn. Part of the enjoyment of science, for me, comes from reading about the variety of ideas that people come up with and then comparing these ideas to see what makes the most sense. My post did not include a lecture on the mechanics of scientific methodology or the purpose and/or structure of scientific theory because I assumed the reader would not enjoy being told what they already know. I don't appreciate this type of exchange so I avoid subjecting others to it.

Sorry if my reply came across as a "lecture" on the scientific method. As you might judge from weight of verbiage, my question was more along the lines of what we define as "truth", and how such a definition might be explicated. I don't know that philosophy has discovered any important truths (which I define as "facts about the objective reality we inhabit", in this context) and was curious.

Has philosophy (contra science) identified any truths about the Big Bang?

Not in a direct way, but I do think ancient Greek philosophers should be lauded for a lot of out of the box thinking and analyzation that helped pave the way for scientific thinking.
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