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Trump and the End Times
#26

Trump and the End Times
(08-18-2020, 08:56 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 05:40 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 03:33 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: So far as I know the antichrist and end times will come when people won't recognize Satan because he's disguised as a popular leader.  He's supposed to walk through smoke and ruins guarded by his helpers and pretend he's super religious other blah, blah, blah stuff.  Or something to that effect. 


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Isn't this exactly what's happening? Don't forget, no one loves the bible as much as Trump does.

I don't get it. I think a very good case can be made to the Christians to not vote for Trump because he's their antichrist.

A couple of the key elements, as I was taught about it, was that the anti-christ would be someone who miraculously suffered a normally lethal injury. He would also be responsible for building the Third Temple (The Temple on the Mount), or making the building possible.

Trump is a poor fit for the anti-christ, but there are many that will attempt to shoe-horn him into the position in order to bring about their version of the apocalypse.

Oh wow. The Jewish vision of the messianic era includes the messiah building or making possible, as you said, the building of the third temple. I didn't realize that Christians would view this as being a sign that the person is bad.
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#27

Trump and the End Times
As an ignostic, mythical religious heroes and villains don't need to concern me any more than
debating the merits of 'Jack And the Beanstalk'.     Thankfully.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#28

Trump and the End Times
(08-18-2020, 09:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 08:56 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 05:40 PM)Aliza Wrote: Isn't this exactly what's happening? Don't forget, no one loves the bible as much as Trump does.

I don't get it. I think a very good case can be made to the Christians to not vote for Trump because he's their antichrist.

A couple of the key elements, as I was taught about it, was that the anti-christ would be someone who miraculously suffered a normally lethal injury. He would also be responsible for building the Third Temple (The Temple on the Mount), or making the building possible.

Trump is a poor fit for the anti-christ, but there are many that will attempt to shoe-horn him into the position in order to bring about their version of the apocalypse.

Oh wow. The Jewish vision of the messianic era includes the messiah building or making possible, as you said, the building of the third temple. I didn't realize that Christians would view this as being a sign that the person is bad.

Well, the person may be bad (anti christ), but he is there building that temple, or making it possible, because he is paving the way for god himself. When that happens, the end is nigh.
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#29

Trump and the End Times
Trump isn't the Antichrist. He's just anti-American.
Freedom isn't free.
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#30

Trump and the End Times
(08-18-2020, 09:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 08:56 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 05:40 PM)Aliza Wrote: Isn't this exactly what's happening? Don't forget, no one loves the bible as much as Trump does.

I don't get it. I think a very good case can be made to the Christians to not vote for Trump because he's their antichrist.

A couple of the key elements, as I was taught about it, was that the anti-christ would be someone who miraculously suffered a normally lethal injury. He would also be responsible for building the Third Temple (The Temple on the Mount), or making the building possible.

Trump is a poor fit for the anti-christ, but there are many that will attempt to shoe-horn him into the position in order to bring about their version of the apocalypse.

Oh wow. The Jewish vision of the messianic era includes the messiah building or making possible, as you said, the building of the third temple. I didn't realize that Christians would view this as being a sign that the person is bad.

Don't take my word as gospel for christianity in general since that was a Seventh Day Adventist teaching and they are the people who birthed the Branch Davidians. Big Grin
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#31

Trump and the End Times
(08-18-2020, 11:46 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 09:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 08:56 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote: A couple of the key elements, as I was taught about it, was that the anti-christ would be someone who miraculously suffered a normally lethal injury. He would also be responsible for building the Third Temple (The Temple on the Mount), or making the building possible.

Trump is a poor fit for the anti-christ, but there are many that will attempt to shoe-horn him into the position in order to bring about their version of the apocalypse.

Oh wow. The Jewish vision of the messianic era includes the messiah building or making possible, as you said, the building of the third temple. I didn't realize that Christians would view this as being a sign that the person is bad.

Well, the person may be bad (anti christ), but he is there building that temple, or making it possible, because he is paving the way for god himself. When that happens, the end is nigh.

According to my mythology sabbath school classes, that's exactly right.
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#32

Trump and the End Times
(08-18-2020, 11:46 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 09:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 08:56 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote: A couple of the key elements, as I was taught about it, was that the anti-christ would be someone who miraculously suffered a normally lethal injury. He would also be responsible for building the Third Temple (The Temple on the Mount), or making the building possible.

Trump is a poor fit for the anti-christ, but there are many that will attempt to shoe-horn him into the position in order to bring about their version of the apocalypse.

Oh wow. The Jewish vision of the messianic era includes the messiah building or making possible, as you said, the building of the third temple. I didn't realize that Christians would view this as being a sign that the person is bad.

Well, the person may be bad (anti christ), but he is there building that temple, or making it possible, because he is paving the way for god himself. When that happens, the end is nigh.

I don't get how Christianity ever caught on in the first place. The Jewish view on this is that when the messiah comes, there will be peace on earth. No end times, no rapture, no beast, no tribulations. Just plain ol' peace and happiness. 

I don't get those people.
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#33

Trump and the End Times
(08-19-2020, 02:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 11:46 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 09:24 PM)Aliza Wrote: Oh wow. The Jewish vision of the messianic era includes the messiah building or making possible, as you said, the building of the third temple. I didn't realize that Christians would view this as being a sign that the person is bad.

Well, the person may be bad (anti christ), but he is there building that temple, or making it possible, because he is paving the way for god himself. When that happens, the end is nigh.

I don't get how Christianity ever caught on in the first place. The Jewish view on this is that when the messiah comes, there will be peace on earth. No end times, no rapture, no beast, no tribulations. Just plain ol' peace and happiness. 

I don't get those people.


Yabbut, clouds and harps and married to Jesus, wings and eternal bliss....  Tongue
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#34

Trump and the End Times
(08-19-2020, 02:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 11:46 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 09:24 PM)Aliza Wrote: Oh wow. The Jewish vision of the messianic era includes the messiah building or making possible, as you said, the building of the third temple. I didn't realize that Christians would view this as being a sign that the person is bad.

Well, the person may be bad (anti christ), but he is there building that temple, or making it possible, because he is paving the way for god himself. When that happens, the end is nigh.

I don't get how Christianity ever caught on in the first place. The Jewish view on this is that when the messiah comes, there will be peace on earth. No end times, no rapture, no beast, no tribulations. Just plain ol' peace and happiness. 

I don't get those people.

Rational people can't explain the irrational, unless it's numbers, MS mathematician.  Tongue 

xtianity caught on at sword's point a long time ago. Those people aren't actually all that different from the people of today. When I taught school, sometimes the students would talk like the ancients were stupid. But if one looks back a few thousand years, and sees that mathematical proofs were made even then, they are enlightened immensely. I got into a discussion with a co-worker back in the '80s about how there were an infinite number of prime numbers. My co-worker said that this had only been proved recently. I had studied a lot more math than my physics major compatriots and this guy, so I knew that the real proof had been made by Euclid. He didn't believe me, so I brought in one of my abstract algebra books and showed him the proof. Even 3000 years ago, this was the level of mathematical thought. I firmly believe that if people didn't so fiercely resist education, even the people of that millennium would have been properly educated. Then again, if the religious aristocracy hadn't so fiercely resisted the education of the populace, it would have been a much nicer world. OK, I'm rambling a bit. It's been a hot day in the sun for me today, as well as yesterday, when one of my sons and I were laying concrete and paving stones. If you want to discuss this more, I'm open to it tomorrow.  Big Grin
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#35

Trump and the End Times
(08-19-2020, 02:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 11:46 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 09:24 PM)Aliza Wrote: Oh wow. The Jewish vision of the messianic era includes the messiah building or making possible, as you said, the building of the third temple. I didn't realize that Christians would view this as being a sign that the person is bad.

Well, the person may be bad (anti christ), but he is there building that temple, or making it possible, because he is paving the way for god himself. When that happens, the end is nigh.

I don't get how Christianity ever caught on in the first place. The Jewish view on this is that when the messiah comes, there will be peace on earth. No end times, no rapture, no beast, no tribulations. Just plain ol' peace and happiness. 

I don't get those people.

A couple things to keep in mind about christers.

First: Most christers have no idea what Jesus taught, if he ever actually taught anything.

Second: Most christers don't care what Jesus taught, if he ever actually taught anything, especially if it conflicts with what Paul taught, if he ever actually taught anything. Although, most of them have no idea what Paul taught either.

Christianity is actually poorly named, because it's not the religion of Jesus, but the religion dreamed up by Paul and should more properly be called Paulanity or something like.
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#36

Trump and the End Times
(08-19-2020, 02:12 AM)Dom Wrote:
(08-19-2020, 02:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 11:46 PM)Dom Wrote: Well, the person may be bad (anti christ), but he is there building that temple, or making it possible, because he is paving the way for god himself. When that happens, the end is nigh.

I don't get how Christianity ever caught on in the first place. The Jewish view on this is that when the messiah comes, there will be peace on earth. No end times, no rapture, no beast, no tribulations. Just plain ol' peace and happiness. 

I don't get those people.


Yabbut, clouds and harps and married to Jesus, wings and eternal bliss....  Tongue

As Steve Miller sang, "You got to go through Hell before you get to Heaven."
Freedom isn't free.
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#37

Trump and the End Times
(08-19-2020, 03:18 AM)Fireball Wrote: Rational people can't explain the irrational, unless it's numbers, MS mathematician.  Tongue 

xtianity caught on at sword's point a long time ago. Those people aren't actually all that different from the people of today. When I taught school, sometimes the students would talk like the ancients were stupid. But if one looks back a few thousand years, and sees that mathematical proofs were made even then, they are enlightened immensely. I got into a discussion with a co-worker back in the '80s about how there were an infinite number of prime numbers. My co-worker said that this had only been proved recently. I had studied a lot more math than my physics major compatriots and this guy, so I knew that the real proof had been made by Euclid. He didn't believe me, so I brought in one of my abstract algebra books and showed him the proof. Even 3000 years ago, this was the level of mathematical thought. I firmly believe that if people didn't so fiercely resist education, even the people of that millennium would have been properly educated. Then again, if the religious aristocracy hadn't so fiercely resisted the education of the populace, it would have been a much nicer world. OK, I'm rambling a bit. It's been a hot day in the sun for me today, as well as yesterday, when one of my sons and I were laying concrete and paving stones. If you want to discuss this more, I'm open to it tomorrow.  Big Grin

Eratosthenes figured the Earth's circumference to within 10% using a couple of sticks, a couple of MkI eyeballs, and a little grey matter.
Freedom isn't free.
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#38

Trump and the End Times
(08-18-2020, 02:44 PM)Dānu Wrote: I'm not sufficiently familiar with that stuff, but if memory serves, the myth includes that the antichrist will come as a peace-maker who brings people together.  It's true that pulling out of foreign conflicts does create peace in a sense, but aside from that, I don't think Trump is a good fit.

The particular version of the myth I was taught is that the AntiChrist will be a world leader that brings a false peace, at the expense of then taking total control of all economic systems and creating worldwide conflict and suffering and plagues known as "the great tribulation". Depending on your exact eschatology, Christians will be "raptured" (disappeared into heaven) before, in the middle of, or just after this period. Understandably, the most popular version was the "pre-tribulational" or "pretrib" version, that Christians don't have to suffer like all the unbelievers, and are taken away before it all goes down.


The place that Trump plays in the current evangelical fever dream is the role of a "modern King Cyrus", an areligious world leader miraculously used by god to restore his chosen people to their rightful place of influence (or, if you're not trying to be subtle -- power). He does this basically by larding the courts with fundamentalist nutjobs, and promoting such nutjobs generally (like how he's letting "pillow guy" Mike Lindell, an evangelical entrepreneur from Minnesota, hawk a miracle cure for Covid).

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/51254...l-salesman

Many (not all) evangelicals are also dominionists, who dream of creating a theocracy and replacing English Common Law with Mosaic Law (nevermind the details, it's the concept that fascinates). The seminal thinker in this vein was RJ Rushdoony, who started hawking such ideas in the early 1960s. A later and still influential voice is Gary North.

Basically anything that gets evangelicals in the halls of power with unexamined and unearned respect and creates the prospect of such an outright theocracy or at least a theocratically leaning government, gets the nod with these folks. Trump ticks all those boxes, or can be rationalized as doing so anyway.

There's appeal, too, in upsetting or "owning" the "libs", who are resented for having gained the upper hand culturally and socially for a time. Give them a taste of their own medicine.
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#39

Trump and the End Times
(08-19-2020, 06:36 PM)mordant Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 02:44 PM)Dānu Wrote: I'm not sufficiently familiar with that stuff, but if memory serves, the myth includes that the antichrist will come as a peace-maker who brings people together.  It's true that pulling out of foreign conflicts does create peace in a sense, but aside from that, I don't think Trump is a good fit.

The particular version of the myth I was taught is that the AntiChrist will be a world leader that brings a false peace, at the expense of then taking total control of all economic systems and creating worldwide conflict and suffering and plagues known as "the great tribulation". Depending on your exact eschatology, Christians will be "raptured" (disappeared into heaven) before, in the middle of, or just after this period. Understandably, the most popular version was the "pre-tribulational" or "pretrib" version, that Christians don't have to suffer like all the unbelievers, and are taken away before it all goes down.


The place that Trump plays in the current evangelical fever dream is the role of a "modern King Cyrus", an areligious world leader miraculously used by god to restore his chosen people to their rightful place of influence (or, if you're not trying to be subtle -- power). He does this basically by larding the courts with fundamentalist nutjobs, and promoting such nutjobs generally (like how he's letting "pillow guy" Mike Lindell, an evangelical entrepreneur from Minnesota, hawk a miracle cure for Covid).

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/51254...l-salesman

Many (not all) evangelicals are also dominionists, who dream of creating a theocracy and replacing English Common Law with Mosaic Law (nevermind the details, it's the concept that fascinates). The seminal thinker in this vein was RJ Rushdoony, who started hawking such ideas in the early 1960s. A later and still influential voice is Gary North.

Basically anything that gets evangelicals in the halls of power with unexamined and unearned respect and creates the prospect of such an outright theocracy or at least a theocratically leaning government, gets the nod with these folks. Trump ticks all those boxes, or can be rationalized as doing so anyway.

There's appeal, too, in upsetting or "owning" the "libs", who are resented for having gained the upper hand culturally and socially for a time. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

I couldn't have answered any better than you just did.
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#40

Trump and the End Times
I'm praying that Trump will get raptured right out of Washington, in about 85 days, thank you Jesus, and the tribulation will end.
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#41

Trump and the End Times


I think you guys called it. They view him as a King Cyrus.
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#42

Trump and the End Times
(08-20-2020, 03:35 PM)Aliza Wrote:

I think you guys called it. They view him as a King Cyrus.

Even the ones who aren't evangelicals are hearing all sorts of dog whistles there; they see him as covertly subverting the Deep State and finding all these alleged child porn rings and cannibalistic rituals that the dems run out of places like pizza parlor basements. That the reporter asked a clear question that a relatively normal President would have easily said of course he doesn't believe such things, that's crazy talk -- means that without actually admitting to it, he's doing it, so far as the QAnon folks are concerned. For a conspiracy theorist, their conspiracies even being deniably tolerated by the leader of the free world is heady stuff for them, a once in a lifetime experience.

I very much doubt that Trump believes this shit himself, it is just useful to him in gaining allies and building a personal mythology that solidifies his base. Also it is a great way to troll his opponents and get them to waste energy fulminating about it.
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#43

Trump and the End Times
(08-19-2020, 07:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: I'm praying that Trump will get raptured right out of Washington, in about 85 days, thank you Jesus, and the tribulation will end.

Good sarc!
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#44

Trump and the End Times
(08-20-2020, 06:26 PM)mordant Wrote: Also it is a great way to troll his opponents and get them to waste energy fulminating about it.

A lot of the stuff he spouts is just that - media food.
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#45

Trump and the End Times
(08-20-2020, 06:35 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-20-2020, 06:26 PM)mordant Wrote: Also it is a great way to troll his opponents and get them to waste energy fulminating about it.

A lot of the stuff he spouts is just that - media junk food.

Fixed that for you. Tongue
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#46

Trump and the End Times
(08-20-2020, 09:10 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote:
(08-20-2020, 06:35 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-20-2020, 06:26 PM)mordant Wrote: Also it is a great way to troll his opponents and get them to waste energy fulminating about it.

A lot of the stuff he spouts is just that - media junk food.

Fixed that for you. Tongue

"By definition"... Wink
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#47

Trump and the End Times
Like any bottom-feeder, muddying the waters is useful camouflage for Trump. Send out so many signals that the work figuring which is false and which is real allows him to retain the initiative in the conversation, because it distracts from the focal point.
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#48

Trump and the End Times
(08-18-2020, 04:42 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The fundies literally think he was appointed by god.  And here. It's a literal death cult.

That shit makes me more convinced than ever that there will be violence following a Trump defeat. 
He won't stop it or even curb it even if he wanted to - he doesn't have the skills necessary.
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
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#49

Trump and the End Times
(08-20-2020, 09:33 PM)Chas Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 04:42 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The fundies literally think he was appointed by god.  And here. It's a literal death cult.

That shit makes me more convinced than ever that there will be violence following a Trump defeat. 
He won't stop it or even curb it even if he wanted to - he doesn't have the skills necessary.

BWX News Flash! Trump to disinter Lincoln's body for stage prop showing "he is the follower of that brave man who freed the Indians". Later, Franco (still dead after all these years) will nominate Trump for Supreme Court Justice.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#50

Trump and the End Times
(08-20-2020, 09:59 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(08-20-2020, 09:33 PM)Chas Wrote:
(08-18-2020, 04:42 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The fundies literally think he was appointed by god.  And here. It's a literal death cult.

That shit makes me more convinced than ever that there will be violence following a Trump defeat. 
He won't stop it or even curb it even if he wanted to - he doesn't have the skills necessary.

BWX News Flash!  Trump to disinter Lincoln's body for stage prop showing "he is the follower of that brave man who freed the Indians".   Later, Franco (still dead after all these years) will nominate Trump for Supreme Court Justice.

Yeah, it's kind of getting the appearance of a Superman Bizarro world here in the US.
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