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Fall Gelb
#1

Fall Gelb
May, 20th 1940

Forward units of 2nd Panzerdivision reach Noyelles-sur-Mer at the channel coast. BEF and the best divisions of the french army are now trapped. The "Battle for France" is basically over.

discuss... Big Grin
R.I.P. Hannes
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#2

Fall Gelb
"We shall fight them in the Pizza Huts, we shall fight them in the McDonalds, we shall fight them in the Taco Bells. We will never throw up, we will never throw up, we will never throw up!"
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#3

Fall Gelb
R.I.P. Hannes
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#4

Fall Gelb
The Schlieffen Plan worked better without Schlieffen!

It also worked better with mobile artillery and Stuka dive bombers.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#5

Fall Gelb
♫We are sailing for England♫
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#6

Fall Gelb
(05-20-2020, 04:20 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:

Third of a million men trapped and the Navy can only rescue ~45,000.
Took guts to sail a little fishing boat or pleasure yacht across the Channel, and go back again, and again...
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#7

Fall Gelb
(05-20-2020, 06:57 PM)Mr Greene Wrote:
(05-20-2020, 04:20 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:

Third of a million men trapped and the Navy can only rescue ~45,000.
Took guts to sail a little fishing boat or pleasure yacht across the Channel, and go back again, and again...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation
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#8

Fall Gelb
Funneling seven Panzer Divisionen through the Ardennes ... I'm told the armored column was around 100 miles long.
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#9

Fall Gelb
And the French and British were looking the wrong way!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#10

Fall Gelb
(05-21-2020, 01:14 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Funneling seven Panzer Divisionen through the Ardennes ... I'm told the armored column was around 100 miles long.

I drove through there at ~100 KPH back in the '70s. No big deal and no better roads than they had 30 years earlier.
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#11

Fall Gelb
Quote:I drove through there at ~100 KPH back in the '70s


In a Panzer III?

resim
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#12

Fall Gelb
(05-21-2020, 01:16 AM)Minimalist Wrote: And the French and British were looking the wrong way!

Oh they jumped north, all right ... just a bridge too far.


(05-21-2020, 01:53 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(05-21-2020, 01:14 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Funneling seven Panzer Divisionen through the Ardennes ... I'm told the armored column was around 100 miles long.

I drove through there at ~100 KPH back in the '70s. No big deal and no better roads than they had 30 years earlier.

In a Panzer IV?

ETA: Min beat me to the punch.
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#13

Fall Gelb
(05-21-2020, 01:14 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Funneling seven Panzer Divisionen through the Ardennes ... I'm told the armored column was around 100 miles long.

Of those 7, Reinhardts 6th and 8th werent as decisive. Those were in the center. The decisive thrust came from Guderians corps (3 PzDivisions) in the south and Hoths corps (2 Pz Divisions, including Rommels 7th) in the north.

I just read about the campaign and was surprised that the german high brass, above corps level, was just as shit scared as their french counterparts were. They wanted to stop Guderian and Rommel right after their river crossings, in order to let infantry and artillery catch up, exactly as the french assumed.  hobo Kleist, Kluge, Rundsted and OKH, they all were shit scared of the lack of infantry support for the panzers and tried to stop them immediately.

Guderians superior, Kleist (head of the "Panzergruppe Kleist", basically Guderians 3 PzDiv plus Reinhardts 2 PzDiv) was put in this position specifically to keep Guderian in check. Kleist had retired after the Blomberg scandal in 1938!* Guderian was considered to be a "loose cannon". Kleist was a very "conservative" general.

Guderian stepped down as a result (and was re installed immediately, and drove on) and Rommel just didnt give a fuck and just went on with "forced recon" up to the channel coast. I found it quite bizarre, that these guys basically ignored their superiors´ orders and just went on with Mansteins plan, although the german/prussian army was known for its order and obey culture.

They also were lucky. Sedan, where Guderian attacked, was where two french armies met, thus complicating command and control. Not only that, those armies were filled with 2nd grade divisions** and guess what: Both french armies had their 2nd grade divisions exactly there, at the joint.

French high command was also quite inept and ineffective, particularly Gamelin. He purposely stayed near Paris with his Hq, he didnt trust wireless communication and thus all orders and reports were relayed via cyclists, turning an order-and-report-cycle into an 48h affair.

The french Army had capable commanders, like DeGaulle, but unlike Rommel or Guderian they didnt have the means to act. French tanks also were superior to german ones, at least in terms of firepower and armor (crew layout and lack of wireless was a grave disadvantage however). Same for the Mathilda II (and I to a certain degree). When they engaged (Arras for example, or DeGaulles attack) the germans got some bloodied noses.



* Kleist really had bad luck. Forced to retire in 1938. He was sacked by Hitler in March 1944, arrested after July, 20th, 1944, then released. In 1945 he was captured by the US, transfered to the british, extradited to the Yugoslavs, sentenced to 15y, extradited to the soviets, sentenced to 25y, taken to Siberia and died there. He was the highest ranking german general (field marshal) to die in captivity.

**the best divisions were kept for the north, Belgium, along with the BEF in order to counter the repetition of the Schlieffen Plan.
R.I.P. Hannes
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#14

Fall Gelb
(05-21-2020, 01:57 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:I drove through there at ~100 KPH back in the '70s


In a Panzer III?

resim

No, a USN bus.
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#15

Fall Gelb
(05-21-2020, 06:55 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: I just read about the campaign and was surprised that the german high brass, above corps level, was just as shit scared as their french counterparts were. They wanted to stop Guderian and Rommel right after their river crossings, in order to let infantry and artillery catch up, exactly as the french assumed.  hobo Kleist, Kluge, Rundsted and OKH, they all were shit scared of the lack of infantry support for the panzers and tried to stop them immediately.

Yeah, I remember reading about this, and that von Rundstedt only blamed Hitler for "meddling" after the war -- that there was a lot of dithering in OKH.
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#16

Fall Gelb
(05-21-2020, 01:53 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(05-21-2020, 01:14 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Funneling seven Panzer Divisionen through the Ardennes ... I'm told the armored column was around 100 miles long.

I drove through there at ~100 KPH back in the '70s. No big deal and no better roads than they had 30 years earlier.

Past one of these?
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#17

Fall Gelb
(05-21-2020, 07:29 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(05-21-2020, 01:57 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:I drove through there at ~100 KPH back in the '70s


In a Panzer III?

resim

No, a USN bus.


IOW, the modern equivalent of a Panzer III.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#18

Fall Gelb
Driving a bus at 100kph on these roads? Consider
[Image: main-qimg-67cd8a4674717c25f0f64b5a07ead34a]
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#19

Fall Gelb
(05-21-2020, 06:53 PM)Mr Greene Wrote: Driving a bus at 100kph on these roads? Consider
[Image: main-qimg-67cd8a4674717c25f0f64b5a07ead34a]

That's not impressive compared to I-10E through Los Angeles at rush hour ... but there sure were times I wished for a turret-mounted 37.
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#20

Fall Gelb
Go for the long-barrelled .75.  Blow the wreck off the road.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#21

Fall Gelb
(05-22-2020, 01:41 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Go for the long-barrelled .75.  Blow the wreck off the road.

I think you might be referring to a 75mm?
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
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#22

Fall Gelb
Yep.  Got an extra period in there.
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#23

Fall Gelb
(05-22-2020, 01:41 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Go for the long-barrelled .75.  Blow the wreck off the road.

I suppose an 88 would be overkill? Consider
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#24

Fall Gelb
You don't want to leave holes in the roadway.
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#25

Fall Gelb
(05-22-2020, 03:53 AM)Minimalist Wrote: You don't want to leave holes in the roadway.

SoCal's got enough of those as it is.
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