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How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
#1

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
https://time.com/5774422/f-35-military-jet-assessment/

Quote:The Gun On the Air Force's F-35 Has 'Unacceptable' Accuracy, Pentagon Testing Office Says

Quote:Add a gun that can’t shoot straight to the problems that dog Lockheed Martin Corp.’s $428 billion F-35 program, including more than 800 software flaws.

The 25mm gun on Air Force models of the Joint Strike Fighter has “unacceptable” accuracy in hitting ground targets and is mounted in housing that’s cracking, the Pentagon’s test office said in its latest assessment of the costliest U.S. weapons system.


I would think that even if you pointed it straight up eventually gravity would let the shells hit the ground!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#2

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
The bullets are supposed to go where you want them to go.
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#3

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 05:11 PM)Minimalist Wrote: https://time.com/5774422/f-35-military-jet-assessment/

Quote:The Gun On the Air Force's F-35 Has 'Unacceptable' Accuracy, Pentagon Testing Office Says

Quote:Add a gun that can’t shoot straight to the problems that dog Lockheed Martin Corp.’s $428 billion F-35 program, including more than 800 software flaws.

The 25mm gun on Air Force models of the Joint Strike Fighter has “unacceptable” accuracy in hitting ground targets and is mounted in housing that’s cracking, the Pentagon’s test office said in its latest assessment of the costliest U.S. weapons system.


I would think that even if you pointed it straight up eventually gravity would let the shells hit the ground!

They're failing against stationary targets, which is pretty amazing given the level of tech involved with pointing a gun. I realize that you are being sarcastic.  Big Grin
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#4

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 05:23 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The bullets are supposed to go where you want them to go.



Yeah, but, guns have been in steady use since the 15th century.  You'd think SOMEONE would have thought of that by now!
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#5

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
You'd be amazed at how hard it is to hit a stationary object from a moving platform.
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#6

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
But they aren't just firing one bullet. 




You'd think they could adjust to put the rounds on target, no?
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#7

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
I'm not surprised. Modified gun on a relatively new platform. No doubt the cracking mounts and inaccuracies are related.

Never been a fan of the program. It's produced a fighter that goes with software rather than maneuverability for its mission capability. But a fighter must be able to fight, and that means often enough getting into a close-in knife fight rather than using standoff missiles etc.
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#8

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 05:55 PM)Minimalist Wrote: But they aren't just firing one bullet. 




You'd think they could adjust to put the rounds on target, no?

The system jitters, doesn't take the advice of the aimer.
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#9

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
Reading up on it, the cannon carries 182 rounds with internal mounting. At 3300 rounds per minute rated, that is just a tad over three seconds of firing time. There's no room for inaccuracy with those sorts of numbers.
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#10

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 08:00 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 05:55 PM)Minimalist Wrote: But they aren't just firing one bullet. 




You'd think they could adjust to put the rounds on target, no?

The system jitters, doesn't take the advice of the aimer.



I'll accept your reasoning there.  Now.  If you know, why didn't the designers know?
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#11

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 08:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote: I'll accept your reasoning there.  Now.  If you know, why didn't the designers know?

I'm betting they did. If you've ever seen the GAU-8 on the Warthog, you'll know that thing shudders, actually slowing down the aircraft too. I'm guessing the mountings are defective, giving into recoil forces, and eventually causing the gun to shoot wide. The gun itself seems fairly accurate, though not as accurate as the GAU-8, which is understandable given the lighter round.

Smells like someone cut corners in procurement or assembly, to me -- buying cheaper metal, or using less, on the mounts? The pod-mounted version used by the Navy and Marines doesn't have this problem.
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#12

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 08:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote: I'll accept your reasoning there.  Now.  If you know, why didn't the designers know?

I'm betting they did. If you've ever seen the GAU-8 on the Warthog, you'll know that thing shudders, actually slowing down the aircraft too. I'm guessing the mountings are defective, giving into recoil forces, and eventually causing the gun to shoot wide. The gun itself seems fairly accurate, though not as accurate as the GAU-8, which is understandable given the lighter round.

Smells like someone cut corners in procurement or assembly, to me -- buying cheaper metal, or using less, on the mounts? The pod-mounted version used by the Navy and Marines doesn't have this problem.

I used to know a guy who was an engineer on the Osprey, the crash-prone sort-of airplane-and-copter hybrid. He got fired for whistle blowing those kinds of compromises. Eventually it flew, and people died. But that's kind of how we do things in 'Murica these days. When you have a big boondoggle project people don't want to hear about problems, they want to move onto the next milestone.

This same guy, years prior, was on the SR-71 Blackbird project which was all skunkworks and back-of-the-envelope, so it wasn't like he was some kind of rigid by the book guy who couldn't make things happen. But, this was about sweeping actual problems under the carpet, which he wouldn't abide. It cost him his job eventually.
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#13

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 08:48 PM)mordant Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote: I'll accept your reasoning there.  Now.  If you know, why didn't the designers know?

I'm betting they did. If you've ever seen the GAU-8 on the Warthog, you'll know that thing shudders, actually slowing down the aircraft too. I'm guessing the mountings are defective, giving into recoil forces, and eventually causing the gun to shoot wide. The gun itself seems fairly accurate, though not as accurate as the GAU-8, which is understandable given the lighter round.

Smells like someone cut corners in procurement or assembly, to me -- buying cheaper metal, or using less, on the mounts? The pod-mounted version used by the Navy and Marines doesn't have this problem.

I used to know a guy who was an engineer on the Osprey, the crash-prone sort-of airplane-and-copter hybrid. He got fired for whistle blowing those kinds of compromises. Eventually it flew, and people died. But that's kind of how we do things in 'Murica these days. When you have a big boondoggle project people don't want to hear about problems, they want to move onto the next milestone.

This same guy, years prior, was on the SR-71 Blackbird project which was all skunkworks and back-of-the-envelope, so it wasn't like he was some kind of rigid by the book guy who couldn't make things happen. But, this was about sweeping actual problems under the carpet, which he wouldn't abide. It cost him his job eventually.

This sort of shit happens more often than taxpayers might know. These companies have a contractual budget-commitment they must meet or face financial penalties. A millimeter here, a millimeter there, and pretty soon we're talking 182 rounds off-target.

And that's not even counting operational wear-and-tear, which is pretty high on cannon, rifling a heavy round.
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#14

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 08:52 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: This sort of shit happens more often than taxpayers might know. These companies have a contractual budget-commitment they must meet or face financial penalties. A millimeter here, a millimeter there, and pretty soon we're talking 182 rounds off-target.

And that's not even counting operational wear-and-tear, which is pretty high on cannon, rifling a heavy round.

Yup, you get what you measure / pay for. Another factor is that by the time the consequences come home to roost, the contractors and even employees have long moved on to other projects. Managers, in particular, have been promoted onto some other project that they're fucking up. That phenomenon is common in the private sector too. Decisions are made for short term profits / bonuses / recognition and then people are promoted and transferred well before it becomes evident it was a bad decision (to people who bother to connect the dots; to most others it just comes out of nowhere and is bad luck).
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#15

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 10:24 PM)mordant Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:52 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: This sort of shit happens more often than taxpayers might know. These companies have a contractual budget-commitment they must meet or face financial penalties. A millimeter here, a millimeter there, and pretty soon we're talking 182 rounds off-target.

And that's not even counting operational wear-and-tear, which is pretty high on cannon, rifling a heavy round.

Yup, you get what you measure / pay for. Another factor is that by the time the consequences come home to roost, the contractors and even employees have long moved on to other projects. Managers, in particular, have been promoted onto some other project that they're fucking up. That phenomenon is common in the private sector too. Decisions are made for short term profits / bonuses / recognition and then people are promoted and transferred well before it becomes evident it was a bad decision (to people who bother to connect the dots; to most others it just comes out of nowhere and is bad luck).

Yeah, I stood stand-by on more than a few fuse-swaps where mfr error cost SAC not only money but alert-time. It was all on the GI dime at that point.
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#16

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 08:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote: I'll accept your reasoning there.  Now.  If you know, why didn't the designers know?

I'm betting they did. If you've ever seen the GAU-8 on the Warthog, you'll know that thing shudders, actually slowing down the aircraft too. I'm guessing the mountings are defective, giving into recoil forces, and eventually causing the gun to shoot wide. The gun itself seems fairly accurate, though not as accurate as the GAU-8, which is understandable given the lighter round.


Always a big topic in Arizona when the Air Force tries to kill the A-10 because it is a flying dinosaur.  The congressional delegation starts screaming about jobs and the economy and "how can you close down the base" with nary a thought to the poor pilots who would have to fly it in combat.  Luckily, we don't fight anyone with a capable anti-air system but it still boils down to keep a 50 year old plane flying to shoot up pick up trucks and mini-vans.
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#17

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
I fired a 102 year old design for a heavy machine gun last month. Some things just work.
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#18

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 11:31 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote: I'll accept your reasoning there.  Now.  If you know, why didn't the designers know?

I'm betting they did. If you've ever seen the GAU-8 on the Warthog, you'll know that thing shudders, actually slowing down the aircraft too. I'm guessing the mountings are defective, giving into recoil forces, and eventually causing the gun to shoot wide. The gun itself seems fairly accurate, though not as accurate as the GAU-8, which is understandable given the lighter round.


Always a big topic in Arizona when the Air Force tries to kill the A-10 because it is a flying dinosaur.  The congressional delegation starts screaming about jobs and the economy and "how can you close down the base"  with nary a thought to the poor pilots who would have to fly it in combat.  Luckily, we don't fight anyone with a capable anti-air system but it still boils down to keep a 50 year old plane flying to shoot up pick up trucks and mini-vans.

It's pretty good at what it does. Its role isn't air superiority, it doesn't have to go fast. It needs to have good armor, good maneuverability, and lots of weapons. It's got that. And it kills tanks and enemy a/c, not just the trucks and vans you mention.

Let's see an F-35 go low and slow for four hours on station, under 2500', and fly home to tell about it. I don't think that's happening.
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#19

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 11:36 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: I fired a 102 year old design for a heavy machine gun last month. Some things just work.

John Browning knew his shit.
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#20

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-18-2020, 11:31 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:21 PM)Minimalist Wrote: I'll accept your reasoning there.  Now.  If you know, why didn't the designers know?

I'm betting they did. If you've ever seen the GAU-8 on the Warthog, you'll know that thing shudders, actually slowing down the aircraft too. I'm guessing the mountings are defective, giving into recoil forces, and eventually causing the gun to shoot wide. The gun itself seems fairly accurate, though not as accurate as the GAU-8, which is understandable given the lighter round.


Always a big topic in Arizona when the Air Force tries to kill the A-10 because it is a flying dinosaur.  The congressional delegation starts screaming about jobs and the economy and "how can you close down the base"  with nary a thought to the poor pilots who would have to fly it in combat.  Luckily, we don't fight anyone with a capable anti-air system but it still boils down to keep a 50 year old plane flying to shoot up pick up trucks and mini-vans.

Those things are armored all to hell. The pilot sits in a titanium "bathtub" for protection. I've seen where they come back from missions with 10" holes in the wings. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near where an A-10 is about to appear.
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#21

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-19-2020, 12:30 AM)Fireball Wrote: Those things are armored all to hell. The pilot sits in a titanium "bathtub" for protection. I've seen where they come back from missions with 10" holes in the wings. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near where an A-10 is about to appear.

A buddy of mine in Dharhan told me about an IFE he worked, A-10 coming back with battle damage. Rolls out in his fire truck, at the hammerhead on the runway. A-10 lands. It was missing 20 foot of wing beyond its port landing-gear sponson ... flew back about 100 miles.

More recently, this guy's pretty happy a Wartpig was under his ass:

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#22

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-19-2020, 12:05 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 11:31 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(05-18-2020, 08:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'm betting they did. If you've ever seen the GAU-8 on the Warthog, you'll know that thing shudders, actually slowing down the aircraft too. I'm guessing the mountings are defective, giving into recoil forces, and eventually causing the gun to shoot wide. The gun itself seems fairly accurate, though not as accurate as the GAU-8, which is understandable given the lighter round.


Always a big topic in Arizona when the Air Force tries to kill the A-10 because it is a flying dinosaur.  The congressional delegation starts screaming about jobs and the economy and "how can you close down the base"  with nary a thought to the poor pilots who would have to fly it in combat.  Luckily, we don't fight anyone with a capable anti-air system but it still boils down to keep a 50 year old plane flying to shoot up pick up trucks and mini-vans.

It's pretty good at what it does. Its role isn't air superiority, it doesn't have to go fast. It needs to have good armor, good maneuverability, and lots of weapons. It's got that. And it kills tanks and enemy a/c, not just the trucks and vans you mention.

Let's see an F-35 go low and slow for four hours on station, under 2500',  and fly home to tell about it. I don't think that's happening.


And as long as the enemy can't shoot missiles at it that's fine.  I guess it is our "Third String."
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#23

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-19-2020, 12:40 AM)Minimalist Wrote: And as long as the enemy can't shoot missiles at it that's fine.  I guess it is our "Third String."

A-10s are actually pretty good against missiles, at low altitudes. They have a very tight turn radius (due to the straight wing) especially at low altitudes, throwing off missile-locks and then disappearing into ground-clutter on enemy radars.

It's our first-string ground-attack aircraft ... for a reason.
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#24

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
The Air Force does not seem to agree.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020...thogs.html

Quote:Bye-Bye to BRRRRT: Air Force Wants to Retire 44 A-10 Warthogs


It's a very expensive political football.
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#25

How Can It Be So Bad That It Can't Hit The Ground?
(05-19-2020, 12:56 AM)Minimalist Wrote: The Air Force does not seem to agree.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020...thogs.html

Quote:Bye-Bye to BRRRRT: Air Force Wants to Retire 44 A-10 Warthogs


It's a very expensive political football.

Since when has a bureaucratic decision been based on a quality analysis?

The Air Force is run by the Fighter Barons. They don't like and don't want USAF aircraft getting low and muddy. They've never liked CAS/BAI missions. They want to sing "Off we go, into the wild blue yonder ... " all day long.

But close air support is a vital air mission that cannot be filled by heloes -- or $430 million stealth fighters.
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