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Pascal's Mugging
#26

Pascal's Mugging
When it occurs to you that what I am saying is silly, you will understand how you sound to us.
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#27

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:22 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:18 PM)Link Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:17 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Did you find time to plumb the depths of aslkfj = alksdjfilkasd?   Why not?


I don't know what you mean.

I'm telling you that the equation above is profound and meaningful and is the ultimate source of reality.  If you do not comprehend it by the time you die, you will be tortured for all eternity.  Do you not owe it to yourself to research it?

If I believed it was at least 1% plausible that was the case, I would owe it to myself to do some research.  Of course, not go all out, but at least have some time devoted to it.
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#28

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:22 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: When it occurs to you that what I am saying is silly, you will understand how you sound to us.

There is nothing silly about it.  More then just our individual salvation, there is also salvation of others, and salvation of humanity in this world. Success in this world in terms of guidance for all you know may require God's guidance. Shutting God out and not giving him a chance or say or not giving his guidance even an ear, would be a huge injustice not only to ourselves but to rest of humans as well.
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#29

Pascal's Mugging
Quote:When he says you wager he exists, he doesn't mean you trick yourself to believing.

It's not "us", idiot.  It's god who gets fooled.  God is a shithead by your standards.

Quote:Voltaire wrote: "The interest I have in believing a thing is not a proof of the existence of that thing."

Now, Voltaire!  There was a thinker.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#30

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:25 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:When he says you wager he exists, he doesn't mean you trick yourself to believing.

It's not "us", idiot.  It's god who gets fooled.  God is a shithead by your standards.

Read the originals, and read it and then come back.
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#31

Pascal's Mugging
Fuck you....and your barbaric religion. 

I will not waste my time on fairy tales, sonny.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#32

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Fuck you....and your barbaric religion. 

I will not waste my time on fairy tales, sonny.

I'd rather be a barbarian with a barbaric religion, then a snot who thinks God doesn't exist.
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#33

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:33 PM)Link Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Fuck you....and your barbaric religion. 

I will not waste my time on fairy tales, sonny.

I'd rather be a barbarian with a barbaric religion, then a snot who thinks God doesn't exist.

Take meds.
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#34

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:25 PM)Link Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:22 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: When it occurs to you that what I am saying is silly, you will understand how you sound to us.

There is nothing silly about it.  More then just our individual salvation, there is also salvation of others, and salvation of humanity in this world. 
Success in this world in terms of guidance for all you know may require God's guidance. Shutting God out and not giving him a chance or say or not giving his guidance even an ear, would be a huge injustice not only to ourselves but to rest of humans as well.


Those are all things I assert about aka;sld = alksjdflkjs.  A huge injustice not to take it seriously, the salvation of humanity is at stake here.
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#35

Pascal's Mugging
Again, if there was any consideration in myself that what you said is true, it would be upon me to research it.
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#36

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:45 PM)Link Wrote: Again, if there was any consideration in myself that what you said is true, it would be upon me to research it.

We feel the same way, Link.  There's no evidence of supernatural forces doing supernatural stuff.  Your silly stuff just has better advertising than mine.
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#37

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:25 PM)Link Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:22 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: When it occurs to you that what I am saying is silly, you will understand how you sound to us.

There is nothing silly about it.  More then just our individual salvation, there is also salvation of others, and salvation of humanity in this world. Success in this world in terms of guidance for all you know may require God's guidance. Shutting God out and not giving him a chance or say or not giving his guidance even an ear, would be a huge injustice not only to ourselves but to rest of humans as well.

Bald, empty assertions made without evidence.  If I were going to wager based on that, I'd also have to give equal consideration to all the other scenarios, including the scenario in which the exact OPPOSITE were true:  That every act that would supposedly get you [insert supernatural reward here] would instead get you [insert supernatural punishment here], and vice versa.  After all, if our individual and collective salvation ride on us REJECTING the idea of a god -- and is there any less evidence for that than the other? -- surely it would be a huge injustice to not only ourselves but the rest of humanity.

This isn't to say that propping up a baseless carrot-and-stick turning against us if we do what you religious types say proves we shouldn't do what you say.  It's to say that propping up a baseless carrot and stick is a stupid guide to our actions REGARDLESS of whether it agrees or disagrees with whichever superstitions you personally subscribe to.

But, okay, I'll give God an ear.  All He has to do is text my phone and I'll give it a good read, or call and I'll give it a good listen.

But I'm only agreeing to listen to GOD'S guidance.  Not the guidance of yet another self-righteous, arrogant, self-appointed priest who screams that he's (or she's, but usually he's) God's appointed representative to anyone gullible to give them money -- those are a dime a dozen and the way they keep contradicting each tells me they aren't reliable.  Not the guidance of the sort of internal thought process which those more self-absorbed than I love to claim is God's voice when it is just their own.  And not the guidance of some random off the internet who has consistently shown he either does not understand the topics being discussed or refuses to address them with anything other than distortions and relocation of goal posts.

So just to be sure that it's actually God, the message will have to begin with a code-phrase that I'm thinking of, and that code will require at least one character that can't be sent over text, and which (if a voice call instead) must be described in detail.  If it's actually God, He'll be able to make it happen, no problem.  If it's some random douche insisting that his words are God's words because of his own ego, this will help me tell the difference.  And since the latter outnumber the former by at least a million to one (and more likely six billion to zero) and they're all trying to get me to think that their words are God's words, I kinda need some way to filter them out if I'm going to try to listen to God rather than them, don't I?
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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#38

Pascal's Mugging
You don't need to listen to any clergy, in fact, it's better to ignore them especially when money and religion is mixed.

The chosen ones sought no money from people in return of their conveying on behalf of God, however, clergy did and do now.

Give the chosen ones a chance, and you will find them a long with God's book, majestic in guiding and sublime in teaching you in ways you don't expect.
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#39

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:58 PM)Link Wrote: You don't need to listen to any clergy, in fact, it's better to ignore them especially when money and religion is mixed.

The chosen ones sought no money from people in return of their conveying on behalf of God, however, clergy did and do now.

Give the chosen ones a chance, and you will find them a long with God's book, majestic in guiding and sublime in teaching you in ways you don't expect.

Okay, so the chosen ones AREN'T the 1%.  (Let's assume that I, for some reason, take your word on this.  I don't have any real reason to, but it squares with my present assessment, so I'll play along for the sake of argument.)  That leaves just 99% to search through... and no guarantee that any of them qualify either.  Yeah, that's a huge help.  Just chock full of practical and verifiable means for separating the chaff from the wheat, or for identifying whether it's 100% chaff.

And also, given the vast numbers of people out there who are misidentifying non-chosen-ones as chosen ones, and given that I have self awareness greater than that of a rutabaga, I'd have to be supremely arrogant to think I was not immune to that sort of mistake myself.  So I'd also need some good means of confirming any identification I might make, something that was head and shoulders above than what most people are using.  Otherwise simple odds would suggest that I'm one of those people mistakenly following the wrong preacher.

This is another example of you either not comprehending the parameters of the problem, or trying to trick people into thinking the solution is simpler than it can be.
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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#40

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:35 PM)LastPoet Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:33 PM)Link Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Fuck you....and your barbaric religion. 

I will not waste my time on fairy tales, sonny.

I'd rather be a barbarian with a barbaric religion, then a snot who thinks God doesn't exist.

Take meds.

No meds can cure this particular delusion.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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#41

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 08:26 AM)Paleophyte Wrote: I fell down a Wikipedia rabbit hole tonight and discovered this gem:

It was a dark and stormy night! Blaise Pacal was walking home when he was accosted by an absent-minded mugger who had forgotten to bring his cudgel. Undeterred, the mugger makes Pascal an offer, "Give me your purse and tomorrow night I shall give you back twice as much money!"

Pascal, who isn't a complete idiot, replies, "No, you're not exactly the model of honesty, so I'm much more likely to loose my purse than I am to get anything back."

The mugger really wants Pascal's purse though. "Give me your purse and tomorrow night I shall give you back four times its worth!"

"No," replies Pascal, "You're even less likely to give me four times the value of my purse than you were to give me twice its value."

"Eight times it value tomorrow night!" Offers the mugger. "Sixteen times?" "Thirty-two?"

Some time passes and now our overly-persistent mugger is offering Pascal 1,152,921,504,606,846,976 times the value of his purse! Pascal, who has been doing his best to ignore the mugger for at least the last hour suddenly realizes that in the extremely unlikely event that the mugger honours his promise then the single silver denier that his purse actually holds will be returned as roughly 4.8 quadrillion gold Francs.

The mugger will continue doubling his offer indefinitely. At what point will the mugger make Pascal an offer that he can't refuse?

Bonus points:
Show ContentSpoiler:

It's obvious to any skeptical mind that the mugger does not have any money to pay Pascal back. Much like any preacher using Pascal's wager as an argument. Empty promises.
Trump is so convinced that everything is about him he has convinced his followers that everything is about him.
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#42

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 03:57 PM)Link Wrote: @Vera One day, you will have to chose to love over hate.  You hate the light, the blessed tree we are connected to, because you let your sins overwhelm you and darken your heart.

Morality isn't what we say it is, it has a reality, and we can't just make it up to be by just asserting hypothesis of what it is. Goodness is love and connection to God through his chosen ones, and evil is envying them and distancing one against them and rebelling against them.

This is the reality, because, the light, guidance and the leader of our time are connected, and it doesn't make sense to partially love goodness but hate most of it or what it's essential essence is.

Love is not good and evil unless it it's guided and values things that ought to be valued in truth. God is the being with Highest Value and deserves to be seen, believed in, and worshiped.

Oh, c'mon!  At least SteveII gives me something to chew on.  This is just baldly asserted woo-woo, barely even coherent!  The best I could get out of all that is you attempting, by definitional fiat, to give credit to God for all that is good in the world, which is both trite and maddening at the same time!

Also, "chosen ones"?  Are you serious?  Do you hear yourself?  If you're going to try to convince us of your fantasy, a minimal first step would be to avoid unnecessarily loaded phrasings that practically scream fantasy trope.  I'm guessing you mean that God just blesses certain people with exceptional insight and/or access, but when couched in terms so reminiscent of Buffy's slayerhood or Harry Potter's fate, you'll have to forgive us for not only not buying any of your BS but laughing out loud at it.

Then again, I also roll my eyes whenever theists take the opposite tactic, trying to sublimate their mythology with overly lofty and/or delicate terminology rather than just calling a spade a spade, so in a sense, your brand of woo-woo is paradoxically refreshing and lame at the same time!  At least you're upfront about how silly it all is!
The only sacred truth in science is that there are no sacred truths. - Carl Sagan
Ἡ μόνη ἱερᾱ̀ ἀληθείᾱ ἐν τῇ φυσικῇ φιλοσοφίᾳ ἐστὶν ἡ ἱερῶν ἀληθειῶν σπάνις. - Κᾱ́ρολος Σήγανος


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#43

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:33 PM)Link Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Fuck you....and your barbaric religion. 

I will not waste my time on fairy tales, sonny.

I'd rather be a barbarian with a barbaric religion, then a snot who thinks God doesn't exist.

Yes, but you are an idiot and there is no fucking god, moron.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#44

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 03:57 PM)Link Wrote: God is the being with Highest Value and deserves to be seen, believed in, and worshiped.

Actually truth is of the highest value, and nothing is worthy of worship.

You would have to prove that God equals truth, and you can't.
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#45

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 03:36 PM)Link Wrote: The reason you don't want to ignore this question, is that, the consequences are absolute and rewards are absolute, so you wager there is a God and try discover and know it if there is one.

Absolute consequences and absolute reward offered to a brain that absolutely cannot comprehend the absolute. You can't even imagine a light year but you think that you're competent to evaluate infinities. Excellent evidence that there is no god.

(05-03-2020, 04:11 PM)Link Wrote: How Do I know this: He devoted paragraphs and paragraphs emphasizing this, that he's not saying to trick yourself but bet on God existing means this and that... and it's as I said.

Blaise Pascal never wrote a word on Pascal's Wager. It was never intended for public consumption and was published posthumously based on his notes. Perhaps you should read the original.
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#46

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:25 PM)Link Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:22 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: When it occurs to you that what I am saying is silly, you will understand how you sound to us.

There is nothing silly about it.  More then just our individual salvation, there is also salvation of others, and salvation of humanity in this world. Success in this world in terms of guidance for all you know may require God's guidance. Shutting God out and not giving him a chance or say or not giving his guidance even an ear, would be a huge injustice not only to ourselves but to rest of humans as well.

Link, people like me are a big problem for you then because I gave god EVERY chance and my entire attention for the first half of my life to date and left theism precisely BECAUSE it did not accurately explain or predict experienced reality or provide "answers" or "peace" or any of the things it promised me.

You should not assume that atheists have not tried. I would say that more have, than haven't.

Atheism is also, inherently a considered position, which implies that counterclaims have been entertained and eliminated.

Your thinking is so shot through with presuppositionalism that you probably don't even see it. The concept of "salvation" is itself religious. Who is to say that you or I or the world need to be "saved". From what? Sin, another theological assertion that doesn't come close to explaining the dynamics of the human condition as well as other approaches?

You assume a savior is needed because humanity is "lost" to some predefined and bestowed meaning or purpose. But again these are merely asserted, not proven or in most cases even proveABLE.

You also may assume you need salvation because you feel "lost" in some sense, but are you really? Religion is pretty good at robbing you of your own sense of self and any sense of agency so you feel you need to swap in someone else's worthiness.
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#47

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:04 PM)Link Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 03:58 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 03:58 PM)Link Wrote: It can't be, you have to see original, it's certainly how I explained it.

Okay thanks, I will check out the original wording.

The counter arguments to the original, is that 

(1) If you are relatively certain that there is no God
(2) Or relatively certain there is no hell for your disbelief
+ (in conjugation with the either of those 2)
You have much better things to do with your time than to be concerned about God and religion, then, it maybe argued, that you waste your life if you spend too much time.

My counter argument to that: is everything in moderation + you gain skills in this research whether God exists or not.

Pascal even emphasized he is not saying to fool yourself into believing in God and went into detail of saying, he isn't trying to get us to trick ourselves God exists.

Certainty is not a requirement. I need not be certain that Russell's teapot does not exist to consider looking for it to be a waste of time.

Additionally, your argument leads to a paroxysm in which propositions which must be examined explode infinitely, as there are few things we know to be impossible.

Unfortunately for you, there's plenty of reason to believe that your God is impossible.
[Image: signature%20The-Ascension-of-Iweko.jpg]
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#48

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 04:11 PM)Link Wrote: You take it out of context. He explains what he meant by that.  When he says you wager he exists, he doesn't mean you trick yourself to believing.  He means you live your life betting he exists so you seek him out, try to discover if he exists or not, read arguments for his existence, etc, read holy books, etc....

How Do I know this: He devoted paragraphs and paragraphs emphasizing this, that he's not saying to trick yourself but bet on God existing means this and that... and it's as I said.

Fine. Present some of these paragraphs. I trust your ability to interpret something correctly about as far as I can throw you. Present the evidence.
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#49

Pascal's Mugging
(05-03-2020, 05:18 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:35 PM)LastPoet Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:33 PM)Link Wrote: I'd rather be a barbarian with a barbaric religion, then a snot who thinks God doesn't exist.

Take meds.

No meds can cure this particular delusion.

That's because you can't cure stupid. It is not a disease.
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#50

Pascal's Mugging
(05-04-2020, 03:23 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 05:18 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(05-03-2020, 04:35 PM)LastPoet Wrote: Take meds.

No meds can cure this particular delusion.

That's because you can't cure stupid.  It is not a disease.

I believe he admitted to suffer from schizofrenia at some point. To those, a simple delusion can be greatly amplified by the condition. I've seen him talk about being possessed by demons and dwelving deep into religion is "helping" his fight against said demons. Its somewhere at AF, but I don't go there anymore.
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