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Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
#76

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 03:57 AM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 03:52 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: I hope your interpretation wins the larger battle of Islamic ideology and practice.

I hope so, some Islamic societies are adopting this interpretation:

Quote:This decree was retracted by the Moroccan High Religious Committee in February 2017 in a document titled "The Way of the Scholars."[283] It instead states that apostasy is a political stance rather than a religious issue, equatable to 'high treason'.
Apostasy in Morocco (Wikipedia)

Don't remember the details but I've read some stuff by Maajid Nawaz and I think his interpretation is similar.  Idea being only Muslims can reform Islam and that there are legit interpretations that are more in line with modern liberalism, tolerance, free speech, etc.  Easier said than done of course but good luck and I hope you spend time in Islamic forums arguing this position.
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#77

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 04:13 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Don't remember the details but I've read some stuff by Maajid Nawaz and I think his interpretation is similar.   

Thanks for the reference, I'll look into it.

Quote:Idea being only Muslims can reform Islam and that there are legit interpretations that are more in line with modern liberalism, tolerance, free speech, etc. 

Indeed, it's more of a cultural issue, otherwise, there are absolutely more than enough early references for a tolerant interpretation, look at this piece, for example:

Quote:The non-Muslims included in the ummah will have the following rights:
  1. The security of God is equal for all the groups
  2. Non-Muslim members of the ummah have equal political and cultural rights with the Muslims. There will be complete freedom of religion and all groups will be autonomous.
  3. Non-Muslims and Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the ummah and will share the cost of war. Muslims and non-Muslims are sincere friends with honorable dealings and no treachery.
  4. Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in the religious wars of Muslims.
from MUHAMMAD AND THE JEWS, Barakat Ahmad p. 46 find the book here online

Freedom of religion and autonomy for non-Muslim minorities in the earliest Islamic society Chuckle

This is from the first constitution of the Islamic government led by the prophet himself. Apparently the document is historically indisputable:

Quote:Tom Holland writes, "The Constitution of Medina is accepted by even the most suspicious of scholars as deriving from the time of Muhammad."
Holland, Tom (2012). In the Shadow of the Sword: The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World.

Quote:Easier said than done of course but good luck and I hope you spend time in Islamic forums arguing this position.

Good idea.
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#78

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 04:13 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: ...I hope you spend time in Islamic forums arguing this position.

THIS.

Here, let's play a Mad-Lib.

Those of us atheists who view [insert religion here] as teaching [insert harmful things here] tend to react mostly with snark, while the subset of [insert same religion here]'s believers who view [same religion] as teaching [same harmful things] are harming people as a result.  And yet, for some reason, it always seems like even the members of [that religion] who believe that [same religion] doesn't advocate for [harmful things], or specifically bans [same harmful things], still place a far higher priority on trying to talk atheists out of the snark than trying to talk their coreligionists out of [harmful thing again].

And that's not an Islaam thing or a Christianity thing or a Hindu thing or a Buddhist thing.  That's an almost-every-religion-on-the-planet thing.
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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#79

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 12:07 AM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-12-2020, 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote:
(04-12-2020, 03:01 PM)Hussein Wrote: In New York, for example, the age of consent is 11 "as long as their age difference doesn't exceed a specified amount" (Wikipedia)
You are full of shit, it says no such thing.  Facepalm 

Your continued defense of the indefensible is disgusting.  You support pedophilia.

No, you are lying.  

New York and South Carolina both have an age of consent of 11 "as long as their age difference doesn't exceed a specified amount." It's is mentioned in the table above the page.

Quote:Close-in-age exemptions:
Some jurisdictions have laws explicitly allowing sexual acts with minors under the age of consent if their partner is close in age to them. For instance, in Canada, the age of consent is 16, but there are two close-in-age exemptions: sex with minors aged 14–15 is permitted if the partner is less than five years older, and sex with minors aged 12–13 is permitted if the partner is less than two years older
Wikipedia

Care to justify your accusation?

Yes, I do.  That exception is for two children, not an adult and a child, so this has no bearing on pedophile Mohammed.
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
#80

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 05:23 AM)Chas Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 12:07 AM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-12-2020, 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote: You are full of shit, it says no such thing.  Facepalm 

Your continued defense of the indefensible is disgusting.  You support pedophilia.

Care to justify your accusation?

Yes, I do.  That exception is for two children, not an adult and a child, so this has no bearing on pedophile Mohammed.

In post #54 I mentioned the story of the 9-year old wife is highly disputable. I never defended it. Your accusation was completely unjustified. 

Quote:There was no official registration of births at the time that Aisha was born, so her date of birth, and therefore date of marriage, cannot be stated with certainty.[25]

Quote:Aisha's age at marriage has been a source of controversy and debate, and some historians, scholars and writers have revisited the previously-accepted timeline of her life.[42] Some writers have calculated Aisha's age based on details found in some biographies, eschewing the traditionally-accepted ahadith. One hadith recorded in the works of some medieval scholars, including al-Dhahabi,[43] states that Aisha's older sister Asma was ten years older than her. This has been combined with information about Asma's age at the time of her death and used to suggest that Aisha was over thirteen at the time of her marriage.[44]

From Wikipedia
#81

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 04:58 AM)Reltzik Wrote: Those of us atheists who view [insert religion here] as teaching [insert harmful things here] tend to react mostly with snark, while the subset of [insert same religion here]'s believers who view [same religion] as teaching [same harmful things] are harming people as a result.  And yet, for some reason, it always seems like even the members of [that religion] who believe that [same religion] doesn't advocate for [harmful things], or specifically bans [same harmful things], still place a far higher priority on trying to talk atheists out of the snark than trying to talk their coreligionists out of [harmful thing again].

And that's not an Islaam thing or a Christianity thing or a Hindu thing or a Buddhist thing.  That's an almost-every-religion-on-the-planet thing.

Atheists are commonly reasonable, religious extremists are not, it's almost impossible to engage in a serious intellectual dialogue with one. Nevertheless, I agree that there should be a more serious effort from the moderates to contain the damage of extremists. 

However, I would generalize it to a wider context, all large communities have extremist minorities who are hard to deal with and harmful (racists, ultranationalists, religionists, political fanatics, etc.), it is the responsibility of the people inside the community to contain their damage.
#82

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 05:27 AM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 05:23 AM)Chas Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 12:07 AM)Hussein Wrote: Care to justify your accusation?

Yes, I do.  That exception is for two children, not an adult and a child, so this has no bearing on pedophile Mohammed.

In post #54 I mentioned the story of the 9-year old wife is highly disputable. I never defended it. Your accusation was completely unjustified. 

Quote:There was no official registration of births at the time that Aisha was born, so her date of birth, and therefore date of marriage, cannot be stated with certainty.[25]

Quote:Aisha's age at marriage has been a source of controversy and debate, and some historians, scholars and writers have revisited the previously-accepted timeline of her life.[42] Some writers have calculated Aisha's age based on details found in some biographies, eschewing the traditionally-accepted ahadith. One hadith recorded in the works of some medieval scholars, including al-Dhahabi,[43] states that Aisha's older sister Asma was ten years older than her. This has been combined with information about Asma's age at the time of her death and used to suggest that Aisha was over thirteen at the time of her marriage.[44]

From Wikipedia

I have reviewed this thread and realize I have misinterpreted you attempts to explain the Islamic view with defense of it.  For that, I sincerely apologize for my heated remarks.

However, I think that you are misrepresenting age of consent laws and that feels like apologetics.
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
#83

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 06:36 AM)Chas Wrote: I have reviewed this thread and realize I have misinterpreted you attempts to explain the Islamic view with defense of it.  For that, I sincerely apologize for my heated remarks.

I appreciate your reconsideration.

Quote:However, I think that you are misrepresenting age of consent laws and that feels like apologetics.

I explicitly mentioned those laws are relevant to close-in-age partners.
#84

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 03:01 PM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-12-2020, 02:40 PM)SYZ Wrote: There is no such thing as an offence "against God" or gods, or any other mythical figure you care to name; gods simply don't exist.    End of story.
There are different schools in fiqh, some might not respect the established laws, but the ones that I'm familiar with, do respect.

So you're still trying to make excuses for the sexual assault of a teenaged girl by a 34-year-old man—because "some"
sects of Islam consider it to be perfectly fine?  Now you're simply splitting hairs.

Quote:But is it objectively harmful to have a sexual relationship with a 14-year old girl?

What the actual fuck!  Of course it is—under any/all laws of the land.  That you even question this is of concern,
when the answer should be obvious.  Objectivity has NOTHING to do with it.

Quote:I'm not sure, it requires physiological and psychological evidence.

Firstly, you should be sure.  There is no evidence needed to tell us (non-Muslims) that it's extremely harmful, and
likely to have lifelong psychological repercussions for the girl during her lifetime.

Quote: I think climate, race and other factors can be very important in determining an age of consent.

And yet another of your litany of excuses.  What the fuck does "climate" have to do with the age of consent? And
what exactly are those "other factors" you suggest affect it?  The rape of this girls was condoned by the Australian
Islamic community, and enabled by an Islamic minister of religion.  What don't you understand about this?

Quote:In New York, for example, the age of consent is 11 "as long as their age difference doesn't exceed a specified amount" (Wikipedia)

Okay.  Firstly, we're not talking about New York—we're talking about sexual assault of a minor in Australia, and
Australian laws.  Your obvious attempt to deflect the focus of an Islamic crime committed here is pathetic.  At any
rate, you've deliberately misrepresented the New York legal statutes anyway—considering the perpetrator in this case was
34 years of age.   As per:

•   Sex with a person under 17 is a Class "E" felony if the perpetrator is at least 21. ("Rape in the third degree"),
•   Sex with a person under 15 is a Class "D" violent felony if the perpetrator is at least 18,
•   "Sexual contact" with a person less than 17 but at least 14, by a perpetrator who is at least five years older than
     the victim is "Sexual abuse in the third degree".

And as far as your purported 11-year age of consent defence claim goes, again you've misrepresented it.  If anybody here
in Australia were  to sexually assault an 11-year-old child, they'd be looking at possibly a 10-year jail sentence.

The NY statute also says:  "the crime of "Predatory sexual assault against a child", a class A-II felony, effectively subsumes
all instances of "statutory" first degree rape/criminal sexual act where the victim is under 13 and the perpetrator over 18.  
Thus, any person who commits one of these lesser offences would necessarily commit the greater offence of "Predatory
sexual assault against a child."
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#85

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 03:38 AM)Hussein Wrote: In my understanding, apostasy is not simply rejecting faith, it's high treason against the Islamic society it entails cooperation with enemies. 

This seems to be the classic position:

Quote:the standard for apostasy from Islam was set so high that practically no apostasy verdict could be passed before the 11th century. [17] However, later jurists lowered the bar for applying the death penalty, allowing judges to interpret the apostasy law in different ways,[17] 

Wikipedia

I should add that this is not a popular interpretation among scholars, but I think it can be easily seen that historically, apostasy has been equivalent to high treason in modern nations. 

Wrong. Rejecting a society's religion has classically been tantamount to allegedly rejecting the state and the culture since ancient times. 
It's just as stupid and idiotic now as it always was. It's not a modern notion. Socrates died for allegedly denying their existence. Aristophanes drew laughs by dramatizing their foibles. Prometheus endured endless torment after stealing fire from their midst.Your assertions concerning the interpretation of scholars is unsupported by and reference. You don't appear to be an expert on what scholars say about anything concerning Islam ... and all you can do is reference Wikipedia.

There is absolutely nothing different about Islam and apostasy than any other ancient religion. They are all the same. Denying a culture's god for the ancient and unenlightened is the same as denying the values of the culture. It;s not even a religious matter. Religions are all the same. https://yaqeeninstitute.org/jonathan-bro...-in-islam/

"From the 7th century through the 18th century, atheists, materialists, Sufi, and Shii sects were accused and executed for apostasy in Islam. In the 8th century, apostates of Islam were killed in West Asia and Sind.10th-century Iraq, Sufi mystic Al-Hallaj was executed for apostasy; in 12th-century Iran, al-Suhrawardi along with followers of Ismaili sect of Islam were killed on charges of being apostates;[41] in 14th-century Syria, Ibn Taymiyyah declared Central Asian Turko-Mongol Muslims as apostates due to the invasion of Ghazan Khan; in 17th-century India, Dara Shikoh and other sons of Shah Jahan were captured and executed on charges of apostasy from Islam by his brother Aurangzeb."

Apostasy in Islam : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
#86

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 07:22 AM)SYZ Wrote:
Quote:There are different schools in fiqh, some might not respect the established laws, but the ones that I'm familiar with, do respect.
So you're still trying to make excuses for the sexual assault of a teenaged girl by a 34-year-old man—because "some" sects of Islam consider it to be perfectly fine?  Now you're simply splitting hairs.

Stop putting words in my mouth.  Angry I didn't say anything in that post that could possibly imply I'm defending anything. My post was purely explanatory.

Quote: Objectivity has NOTHING to do with it.

Yes, I no longer think your are concerned with objectivity. 

Quote:And yet another of your litany of excuses.  What the fuck does "climate" have to do with the age of consent? And what exactly are those "other factors" you suggest affect it?  

Your lack of knowledge does not mean the age of puberty (which is obviously related to the age of consent, sometimes identical) is not dependant on environmental and genetic factors. 

Genetic and Environmental Influences on Pubertal Timing Assessed by Height Growth 

Quote:you've deliberately misrepresented the New York legal statutes anyway

Your accusations are false. You are acting irrationally and are failing to control your emotions.

My representation was accurate:

New York and South Carolina both have an age of consent of 11 "as long as their age difference doesn't exceed a specified amount." It's is mentioned in the table above the page.

Quote:Close-in-age exemptions Some jurisdictions have laws explicitly allowing sexual acts with minors under the age of consent if their partner is close in age to them. For instance, in Canada, the age of consent is 16, but there are two close-in-age exemptions: sex with minors aged 14–15 is permitted if the partner is less than five years older, and sex with minors aged 12–13 is permitted if the partner is less than two years older.[30] 
#87

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 09:59 AM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 07:22 AM)SYZ Wrote: So you're still trying to make excuses for the sexual assault of a teenaged girl by a 34-year-old man—because "some" sects of Islam consider it to be perfectly fine?  Now you're simply splitting hairs.

Stop putting words in my mouth.   I didn't say anything in that post that could possibly imply I'm defending anything. ]My post was purely explanatory.

There's really no point in my responding to such an obvious and blatant liar as you matey.  You're just another
indoctrinated Muslim zealot who chooses to twist the facts of your reprehensible religion in order to perpetuate the
myth of Islam being a religion of peace, humanity and rationality.  Time and again you've tacitly defended the
most heinous of crimes against young children, on this very forum.

You're also willingly ignoring the crimes against humanity carried out by Muslims the world over, from Australia to
Indonesia, from the UK to Germany, from Brazil to France etc etc.  Islam is like a creeping, stinking plague, insidiously
but subtly insinuating itself into secular Western countries like Australia, and attempting to divide the character of
their peoples, and subvert their social morals and ethics.

And you're simply a part of this divisive strategy—indicated by your consistent pseudo-proselytising on this forum,
camouflaged as a sincere meaningful dialogue.  As far as I'm concerned, you can fuck off back to your mosque, and
face east, and the give your imam the best anal sex he's ever had—even better than with goats.

[Image: world-without-muslims.jpg]

    
—We can only hope.     Angry
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
#88

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 10:25 AM)SYZ Wrote: Time and again you've tacitly defended the most heinous of crimes against young children, on this very forum.

Unfounded accusation again  Dodgy I mentioned the 9-year old wife story is historically disputable, I never defended it.

Quote:Islam is like a creeping, stinking plague, insidiously but subtly insinuating itself into secular Western countries like Australia, and attempting to divide the character of their peoples, and subvert their social morals and ethics.

Your discriminatory thinking is dangerous.

Quote:And you're simply a part of this divisive strategy—

So you are a conspiracy theorist as well, a great addition to the list of your irrationalities and immoralities. 

Quote:indicated by your consistent pseudo-proselytising on this forum, camouflaged as a sincere meaningful dialogue. 

You asked for a comment on rape issue in post #51, Link provided his opinion, and I provided my opinion, and I merely explained, did not defend any positions. Pseudo-proselytising? unfounded accusation again  Dodgy 

Quote:As far as I'm concerned, you can fuck off back to your mosque, and face east, and the give your imam the best anal sex he's ever had—even better than with goats.

And finally, discriminatory verbal abuse completes the list.  I hope you are not the best the "enlightened 21st century" can offer.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
#89

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
May I suggest that everyone cool off here. This discussion is spinning out of control. Calmer minds should prevail.  

Don't make me close the thread to make sure all participants cool down.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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#90

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Don't think I've touched this thread, not sure I want to.....oops, just did.
#91

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 12:31 PM)Hussein Wrote: And finally, discriminatory verbal abuse completes the list.  I hope you are not the best the "enlightened 21st century" can offer.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Fuck off you filthy Muslim cunt! I'll say no more.      Angry
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.




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