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Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
#51

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
I thought Link might like to comment on this...

[Image: 967142_900.jpg]
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
#52

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-10-2020, 11:13 AM)SYZ Wrote: I thought Link might like to comment on this...

[Image: 967142_900.jpg]

The Quran forbids marriage before a person is at their prime and before they are in a mature mind state.
#53

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-11-2020, 02:03 PM)Link Wrote:
(04-10-2020, 11:13 AM)SYZ Wrote: I thought Link might like to comment on this...

[Image: 967142_900.jpg]

The Quran forbids marriage before a person is at their prime and before they are in a mature mind state.

Try supporting your contentions for once.  Facepalm
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
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#54

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
So she was mature at 9, huh?

You sure Mo wasn't just a catholick priest?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
#55

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-11-2020, 02:03 PM)Link Wrote: The Quran forbids marriage before a person is at their prime and before they are in a mature mind state.

A former Muslim imam who performed a marriage between an underage girl and a 34-year-old man
has lost his appeal to have his conviction overturned. Imam Ibrahim Omerdic was convicted in 2017
for unlawfully solemnising a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and an Islamic Rohingyan refugee
at a mosque, in south-east Melbourne. He was sentenced to two months' prison for his "serious breach
of trust" but was released immediately on a two-year recognisance release order.

Despite not serving jail time, he still decided to appeal the conviction in the Supreme Court in October
last year, arguing he performed a religious blessing and had not intended to perform a marriage. They
were considered a married couple in the eyes of the Muslim community, but breached the Australian
Marriage Act 1961.

This is the piece of disgusting Islamic shit that performed the teenager's marriage:

[Image: 419814-F600000578-4624174-image-a-37-149...7399-1.jpg]

This scumbag showed a "lack of remorse" and had focussed on his own loss of income and loss of status
in the community. He had "no sense of it being wrong" and spoke of his "blanket denials and outright lies"
about the incident, the prosecutor said.  In my opinion, he should've been deported.

—This is typical of the reasons I despise the religion of Islam and its reprehensible decrees and dogma.       Angry
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#56

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-11-2020, 02:03 PM)Link Wrote:
(04-10-2020, 11:13 AM)SYZ Wrote: I thought Link might like to comment on this...

[Image: 967142_900.jpg]

The Quran forbids marriage before a person is at their prime and before they are in a mature mind state.

And how is that defined? "At their prime" is not definitive and "in a mature mind state" is equally vague. I consider it a tolerance of rape in either meaning.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
#57

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 09:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: —This is typical of the reasons I despise the religion of Islam and its reprehensible decrees and dogma.       Angry

As you said in a previous post, there are two kinds of rights in Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh). One is relevant to the offenses against God, one is relevant to offenses against humans.

Offenses against God have heavy punishments and are not flexible:

Quote:Hudud punishments range from public lashing to publicly stoning to death, amputation of hands and crucifixion.[11] Hudud crimes cannot be pardoned by the victim or by the state, and the punishments must be carried out in public.[12] These punishments were rarely implemented in practice, however, because the evidentiary standards were often impossibly high.[5][2] For example, meeting hudud requirements for zina and theft was virtually impossible without a confession in court, which could be invalidated by a retraction.[13][5] Based on a hadith, jurists stipulated that hudud punishments should be averted by the slightest doubts or ambiguities (shubuhat, sing. shubha).[13][5] The harsher hudud punishments were meant to deter and to convey the gravity of offenses against God, rather than to be carried out.
Please pay attention to the last sentence. From Wikipedia.

So these are rather symbolic, not practical punishments. 

About offenses against humans:

Quote:Hudud is not the only form of punishment under sharia. For offenses against man—the other type of crime in Sharia—that involve inflicting bodily harm Islamic law prescribes a retaliatory punishment analogous to the crime (qisas) or monetary compensation (diya); and for other crimes the form of punishment is left to the judge's discretion (ta'zir).[4] Criminals who escaped a hudud punishment could still receive a ta'zir sentence.[3] In practice, since early on in Islamic history, criminal cases were usually handled by ruler-administered courts or local police using procedures that were only loosely related to sharia.[17][18]

This category (human rights) is flexible and follows the cultural norms of the societies, as long as they do not violate the rights of God.

Rape is obviously a physical harm, according to the above description it falls into ta'zir (judge's discretion) category, since retaliatory punishment is not relevant.

Quote:Sexual abuse within marriage was conceptualized as harm inflicted on the wife rather than violation of consent.[13] According to Brown, the historical record shows that women were able to go to court and force their husbands to desist and pay damages in such cases.[13]

So, to say Islam allows rape is incorrect.

What about the story of the little wife? There are many historical narratives, most are disputable, this one is one of them:

Quote:There was no official registration of births at the time that Aisha was born, so her date of birth, and therefore date of marriage, cannot be stated with certainty.[25]

Quote:Aisha's age at marriage has been a source of controversy and debate, and some historians, scholars and writers have revisited the previously-accepted timeline of her life.[42] Some writers have calculated Aisha's age based on details found in some biographies, eschewing the traditionally-accepted ahadith. One hadith recorded in the works of some medieval scholars, including al-Dhahabi,[43] states that Aisha's older sister Asma was ten years older than her. This has been combined with information about Asma's age at the time of her death and used to suggest that Aisha was over thirteen at the time of her marriage.[44]
From Wikipedia
#58

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 01:22 PM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-12-2020, 09:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: —This is typical of the reasons I despise the religion of Islam and its reprehensible decrees and dogma.   
As you said in a previous post, there are two kinds of rights in Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh). One is relevant to the offences against God, one is relevant to offences against humans...

It doesn't matter how many excuses you make for the rape of a 14-year-old girl—as per the report I cited.
Here in Australia, the only laws are those made by humans;  no laws here are framed in the context of
antiquated Islamic "laws".  Sexual penetration of a female minor (under 16 years) is a criminal offence—as
it should be.  There is no such thing as an offence "against God" or gods, or any other mythical figure you
care to name; gods simply don't exist.    End of story.

Quote:So, to say Islam allows rape is incorrect.

So you're saying that it's acceptable for a 34-year-old man to have sexual relations with a 14-year-old girl?
Bear in mind that this deplorable act was condoned and enabled by an Islamic imam.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#59

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 01:22 PM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-12-2020, 09:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: —This is typical of the reasons I despise the religion of Islam and its reprehensible decrees and dogma.       Angry

As you said in a previous post, there are two kinds of rights in Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh). One is relevant to the offenses against God, one is relevant to offenses against humans.

Offenses against God have heavy punishments and are not flexible:

Rape of a minor (or adult, BTW) is not an offense against God, it is an offense against the victim! A minor has little freedom to object, being accustomed to obeying commands of adults. There is no consent involved, as no minor has the comprehensive understanding to evaluate the offense.

Tossing the punishment for such a crime to a deity is just a way to evade the whole problem.

Yes, lets just wait for God to punish the dead offender who is actually far beyond punishment.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#60

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 02:40 PM)SYZ Wrote: There is no such thing as an offence "against God" or gods, or any other mythical figure you care to name; gods simply don't exist.    End of story.

I was explaining the Islamic legal system to clarify the rape issue, I did not claim any of it, including the existence of God, is based on facts. 

Quote:So you're saying that it's acceptable for a 34-year-old man to have sexual relations with a 14-year-old girl?

Certainly not, violating the established laws of a society is forbidden (it's a sin) according to the school of fiqh that I'm familiar with, if those established laws prevent the Muslims to preserve the rights of God (such as preventing women from practicing hijab, which happens in some parts), it is his/her duty to leave that society, not to violate the laws. 

Quote:Bear in mind that this deplorable act was condoned and enabled by an Islamic imam.

There are different schools in fiqh, some might not respect the established laws, but the ones that I'm familiar with, do respect. 

But is it objectively harmful to have a sexual relationship with a 14-year old girl? I'm not sure, it requires physiological and psychological evidence. I think climate, race and other factors can be very important in determining an age of consent. 

In New York, for example, the age of consent is 11 "as long as their age difference doesn't exceed a specified amount" (Wikipedia)
#61

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 02:54 PM)Cavebear Wrote: Rape of a minor (or adult, BTW) is not an offense against God, it is an offense against the victim!  A minor has little freedom to object, being accustomed to obeying commands of adults.  There is no consent involved, as no minor has the comprehensive understanding to evaluate the offense.  

Tossing the punishment for such a crime to a deity is just a way to evade the whole problem.

Yes, lets just wait for God to punish the dead offender who is actually far beyond punishment.

Maybe you misunderstood, yes exactly, it's not an offense against God. It's an offense against humans and the punishment is left to the judge's discretion, as I mentioned in my previous post:

Quote:
Quote:—the other type of crime in Sharia—that involve inflicting bodily harm Islamic law prescribes a retaliatory punishment analogous to the crime (qisas) or monetary compensation (diya); and for other crimes the form of punishment is left to the judge's discretion (ta'zir).[4] In practice, since early on in Islamic history, criminal cases were usually handled by ruler-administered courts or local police using procedures that were only loosely related to sharia.[17][18]


Rape is obviously a physical harm, according to the above description it falls into ta'zir (judge's discretion) category, since retaliatory punishment is not relevant.
#62

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 03:01 PM)Hussein Wrote: In New York, for example, the age of consent is 11 "as long as their age difference doesn't exceed a specified amount" (Wikipedia)

You are full of shit, it says no such thing.  Facepalm 

Your continued defense of the indefensible is disgusting.  You support pedophilia.
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
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#63

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 11:22 PM)Chas Wrote:
(04-12-2020, 03:01 PM)Hussein Wrote: In New York, for example, the age of consent is 11 "as long as their age difference doesn't exceed a specified amount" (Wikipedia)
You are full of shit, it says no such thing.  Facepalm 

Your continued defense of the indefensible is disgusting.  You support pedophilia.

No, you are lying.  

New York and South Carolina both have an age of consent of 11 "as long as their age difference doesn't exceed a specified amount." It's is mentioned in the table above the page.

Quote:Close-in-age exemptions:
Some jurisdictions have laws explicitly allowing sexual acts with minors under the age of consent if their partner is close in age to them. For instance, in Canada, the age of consent is 16, but there are two close-in-age exemptions: sex with minors aged 14–15 is permitted if the partner is less than five years older, and sex with minors aged 12–13 is permitted if the partner is less than two years older
Wikipedia

Care to justify your accusation?
#64

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Please read the actual text carefully, Hussein. Those are "romeo and juliet " laws allowing for minors of a similar age to not end up with a record for innocent mistakes. The hard age of consent is indeed 17 when it comes to anyone over 18.
What most of us find abhorrent is the arranged marriages of very young girls to older men. There is a clear abuse of power being set up in those cases.
What do you think?
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#65

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-12-2020, 01:22 PM)Hussein Wrote: Offenses against God have heavy punishments and are not flexible:

Quote:Hudud punishments range from public lashing to publicly stoning to death, amputation of hands and crucifixion.[11] Hudud crimes cannot be pardoned by the victim or by the state, and the punishments must be carried out in public.[12] These punishments were rarely implemented in practice, however, because the evidentiary standards were often impossibly high.[5][2] For example, meeting hudud requirements for zina and theft was virtually impossible without a confession in court, which could be invalidated by a retraction.[13][5] Based on a hadith, jurists stipulated that hudud punishments should be averted by the slightest doubts or ambiguities (shubuhat, sing. shubha).[13][5] The harsher hudud punishments were meant to deter and to convey the gravity of offenses against God, rather than to be carried out.
Please pay attention to the last sentence. From Wikipedia.

So these are rather symbolic, not practical punishments.

Would such "Offenses against God" include drawing insulting cartoons of Mohammed?  And if so was the demand for the death of the cartoonists by maniacal Islamic mobs merely a demand for symbolic death rather than actual death?
#66

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 01:22 AM)skyking Wrote: Please read the actual text carefully, Hussein. Those are "romeo and juliet " laws allowing for minors of a similar age to not end up with a record for innocent mistakes. The hard age of consent is indeed 17 when it comes to anyone over 18.

Yes, of course, I mentioned the age difference limit. My point is those laws can suggest the sexual relationship is not physiologically harmful in those ages. 

Quote:What most of us find abhorrent is the arranged marriages of very young girls to older men. 

Forced marriage is indeed abhorrent and disgusting. This should be obvious, the classic Islamic laws do not allow it:

Quote:Islamic requirements for a legal marriage include the requirement that both parties, bride, groom and guardian for the bride (wali), give their legal consent. A marriage without the consent of the bride or performed under coercion is illegal according to the majority of scholars.
Wikipedia

Quote:There is a clear abuse of power being set up in those cases. 

If the age difference is too high, does it mean it is necessarily a forced marriage? In most cases it is, but I do not believe it is always the case.

This is no longer practiced in Iran, except in some rural areas, but we have grandmothers who have happily married to our grandfathers at an age of 13-14-15, there is usually an intense love and respect between them that is rarely seen in modern couples.
#67

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:09 PM)Link Wrote: It's always said by Atheists from my experience,  what sect of Islam is right so to even consider accepting the religion.  They assume because there are so much unresolved differences, that there is no clear proof and decisive way to solve the sectarian dispute.

Wrong again. 
Atheists don't give a flying fuck about your questions and problems you PROJECT from yourself onto others. 

No one cares about the questions that YOU are hung up on. 
Atheists don't give a shit about Islam, except to put it in context ... a religion that promotes violence and is one of the leading causes of violence in the modern world.

Stop posting this stupid spam.

BTW, marrying a child, no matter who allows it, is abusive.
That applies to every culture, and every country on the planet.
The fact that Islam permitted it, is just more evidence that all religions are cooked up by human cultures, and have NO origins other than human.
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#68

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 01:42 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Would such "Offenses against God" include drawing insulting cartoons of Mohammed?  And if so was the demand for the death of the cartoonists by maniacal Islamic mobs merely a demand for symbolic death rather than actual death?

No, "offenses against God" are only relevant to Muslims, in almost all cases the criminal can repent to avoid the punishment or the evidentiary standard is impossibly high to justify the crime, for example, proving illegal sex requires 4 eyewitnesses. 

I do not think those Islamic mobs acted according to the classical principles. 

Quote: The harsher hudud punishments were meant to deter and to convey the gravity of offenses against God, rather than to be carried out.
From Wikipedia.
#69

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Quote: The harsher hudud punishments were meant to deter and to convey the gravity of offenses against God, rather than to be carried out.

LMAO. 
So you get to cherry-pick what is inconvenient. Typical.
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#70

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 01:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
Quote: The harsher hudud punishments were meant to deter and to convey the gravity of offenses against God, rather than to be carried out.

LMAO. 
So you get to cherry-pick what is inconvenient. Typical.

Well I would rather have Muslims on the inside cherry-picking benign and harmless interpretations as opposed to "Real Muslims" cherry-picking the most violent and intolerant.  The needle is going to move one way or the other so I prefer Hussain's direction. (That said, the even better option would be for all of them to wake up and smell the truth- no magic sky daddy)
#71

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
It's a pathetic god that takes offense at a mere cartoon.  Of course he never does his own dirty work when it comes to punishment but invariably passes the buck to pathetic human beings who will do anything to curry his favour.
No gods necessary
#72

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 01:52 AM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 01:42 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Would such "Offenses against God" include drawing insulting cartoons of Mohammed?  And if so was the demand for the death of the cartoonists by maniacal Islamic mobs merely a demand for symbolic death rather than actual death?

No, "offenses against God" are only relevant to Muslims, in almost all cases the criminal can repent to avoid the punishment or the evidentiary standard is impossibly high to justify the crime, for example, proving illegal sex requires 4 eyewitnesses. 

I do not think those Islamic mobs acted according to the classical principles. 

Quote: The harsher hudud punishments were meant to deter and to convey the gravity of offenses against God, rather than to be carried out.
From Wikipedia.

Well, take an apostate, then.  An unapologetic ex-Muslim who denies God exists.  Apparently he can avoid harsh punishment if he repents but that would be out of fear for his life, that's not very just or noble.  If he refuses to repent, does he deserve harsh punishment or is it okay to accept that he has simply changed his mind from believing to not believing?
#73

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 03:26 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Well, take an apostate, then.  An unapologetic ex-Muslim who denies God exists.  Apparently he can avoid harsh punishment if he repents but that would be out of fear for his life, that's not very just or noble.  If he refuses to repent, does he deserve harsh punishment or is it okay to accept that he has simply changed his mind from believing to not believing?

This interpretation of apostasy makes more sense for me:

Quote:Wael Hallaq states that "[in] a culture whose lynchpin is religion, religious principles and religious morality, apostasy is in some way equivalent to high treason in the modern nation-state"

In my understanding, apostasy is not simply rejecting faith, it's high treason against the Islamic society it entails cooperation with enemies. 

This seems to be the classic position:

Quote:the standard for apostasy from Islam was set so high that practically no apostasy verdict could be passed before the 11th century. [17] However, later jurists lowered the bar for applying the death penalty, allowing judges to interpret the apostasy law in different ways,[17] 

Wikipedia

I should add that this is not a popular interpretation among scholars, but I think it can be easily seen that historically, apostasy has been equivalent to high treason in modern nations. 
#74

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 03:38 AM)Hussein Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 03:26 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Well, take an apostate, then.  An unapologetic ex-Muslim who denies God exists.  Apparently he can avoid harsh punishment if he repents but that would be out of fear for his life, that's not very just or noble.  If he refuses to repent, does he deserve harsh punishment or is it okay to accept that he has simply changed his mind from believing to not believing?

This interpretation of apostasy makes more sense for me:

Quote:Wael Hallaq states that "[in] a culture whose lynchpin is religion, religious principles and religious morality, apostasy is in some way equivalent to high treason in the modern nation-state"

In my understanding, apostasy is not simply rejecting faith, it's high treason against the Islamic society it entails cooperation with enemies. 

This seems to be the classic position:

Quote:the standard for apostasy from Islam was set so high that practically no apostasy verdict could be passed before the 11th century. [17] However, later jurists lowered the bar for applying the death penalty, allowing judges to interpret the apostasy law in different ways,[17] 

Wikipedia

I should add that this is not a popular interpretation among scholars, but I think it can be easily seen that historically, apostasy has been equivalent to high treason in modern nations. 

I hope your interpretation wins the larger battle of Islamic ideology and practice.
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#75

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-13-2020, 03:52 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: I hope your interpretation wins the larger battle of Islamic ideology and practice.

I hope so, some Islamic societies are adopting this interpretation:

Quote:This decree was retracted by the Moroccan High Religious Committee in February 2017 in a document titled "The Way of the Scholars."[283] It instead states that apostasy is a political stance rather than a religious issue, equatable to 'high treason'.
Apostasy in Morocco (Wikipedia)
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