Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
#26

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
[Image: pmm-shia-sunni.jpg]


[Image: D14112_3.gif]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • isbelldl
#27

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 05:01 AM)Astreja Wrote: Link, the main reason that atheists talk about the Sunni vs. Shia issue at all is that it points out a major problem:

Most religions, not just Islam, are divided into two or more sects.  These can range from a few divisions (e.g. the differences between Soto and Rinzai Zen, or between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism) to tens of thousands (e.g. Christianity).

How can you possibly expect non-believers to see your beliefs as "the truth" when you can't even convince people from another variety of the same religion?

This the essential problem. You assume due to division and people not accepting the truth, that the truth is unclear.
#28

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
[Image: 9pg8rHn_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium]
The following 4 users Like no one's post:
  • Dānu, Paleophyte, isbelldl, skyking
#29

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
No.  We don't give a shit about your "truth."
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
#30

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 07:38 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Nothing is more pathetic than threats of hellfire and damnation.  Whether it is from one of our own Texan moron fundy preachers, or some Moslem true believer.  We have been hearing that crap all our lives.  Perhaps if you instead wasted your time getting all of those Islamic radicals who are murdering, killing and inflicting suffering and death among innocent people to stop doing that successfully, you might show us how Islam can be useful in solving religious ignorance.

The problem with humans is they delegate responsibility of this to others. I have been trying to convince and reform Muslims for a long time.

Yet while people who recite the book are more responsible to uphold the truth and spread the true message, no human is really off the hook completely, in that, they can just not care and be apathetic and get away with it.
#31

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 05:01 AM)Astreja Wrote: Link, the main reason that atheists talk about the Sunni vs. Shia issue at all is that it points out a major problem:

Most religions, not just Islam, are divided into two or more sects.  These can range from a few divisions (e.g. the differences between Soto and Rinzai Zen, or between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism) to tens of thousands (e.g. Christianity).

How can you possibly expect non-believers to see your beliefs as "the truth" when you can't even convince people from another variety of the same religion?

(04-03-2020, 05:07 AM)Link Wrote: This the essential problem. You assume due to division and people not accepting the truth, that the truth is unclear.

You can't just say that something is true.  You have to demonstrate it, and the evidentiary standard you have to meet is that of the other person, not your own standard.  You're already convinced, but what convinces you is probably not going to convince me.  Why should I take your word for it, or the word of the Quran?  For me, that just isn't good enough.
The following 1 user Likes Astreja's post:
  • SYZ
#32

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
The point is Atheists always say "what version of God" or "what version of that religion", and they assume it's very hard to reach proper decisive conclusions.

I've shown in the case if the Quran is revealed from God, than no doubt, Shiites are correct about the family of Mohammad. You can say well 90% of Muslims interpret differently or don't believe, but it doesn't do away with how clear and evident the family of Mohammad are in the Quran.
#33

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
What about all the Whos in Whoville? Which Who is true? The Who in blue? The Who in the Canoe? The Who that knew?

And where does Boris the spider fit in?
The following 1 user Likes no one's post:
  • Paleophyte
#34

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
God keeps sending prophets but that never helps. It just leads to more religions and more religions fighting each other, and more sects fighting to other sects who don't read the prophets correctly. Shouldn't God learn from these failures and go back to making personal appearances as per the Bible? What's wrong with God any way?

Exodus 24
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Plunk your magic twanger Froggy!   Boinnnnnng!  Hiya Kids!  Hiya! Hiya!



#35

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?

For Muslims, yes.

For the rest of us, ignoring Islam helps.

(04-03-2020, 05:21 AM)Link Wrote: The point is Atheists always say "what version of God" or "what version of that religion", and they assume it's very hard to reach proper decisive conclusions.

It's not so hard when all versions of God and religion are wrong.
#36

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Islam's sectarianism is of no concern to me. War and murder are. So....Fuck Muhammed!
One thing you never see: A guy in Boston Mass. with a Union flag yelling "The Nawth's gonna rise again!"
The following 3 users Like Chimp3's post:
  • Minimalist, SYZ, brunumb
#37

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 05:10 AM)Link Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 07:38 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Nothing is more pathetic than threats of hellfire and damnation.  Whether it is from one of our own Texan moron fundy preachers, or some Moslem true believer.  We have been hearing that crap all our lives.  Perhaps if you instead wasted your time getting all of those Islamic radicals who are murdering, killing and inflicting suffering and death among innocent people to stop doing that successfully, you might show us how Islam can be useful in solving religious ignorance.

The problem with humans is they delegate responsibility of this to others. I have been trying to convince and reform Muslims for a long time.

Yet while people who recite the book are more responsible to uphold the truth and spread the true message, no human is really off the hook completely, in that, they can just not care and be apathetic and get away with it.

It is hard to NOT be unenthusiastic about arguing with the fools when the fools have the bombs and AK-47s and think nothing of murdering those who do not accept their version of Islam as the only correct one.  It is obvious then, to us atheists, that this Allah should have written a much better Quran that made it clear what was important, and to preclude all forms of religious violence.  Instead, we get a book crammed with silly tall tales.  Comets chasing djinns away from Allah's throne.  Birds killing an elephant by dropping pebbles on it.  The silly tale of God and Magog  the two giants.  This book is not the work of a giant intellect.  Not Allah's, nor Mohammads.
Plunk your magic twanger Froggy!   Boinnnnnng!  Hiya Kids!  Hiya! Hiya!



#38

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 12:45 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:
(04-03-2020, 05:10 AM)Link Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 07:38 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Nothing is more pathetic than threats of hellfire and damnation.  Whether it is from one of our own Texan moron fundy preachers, or some Moslem true believer.  We have been hearing that crap all our lives.  Perhaps if you instead wasted your time getting all of those Islamic radicals who are murdering, killing and inflicting suffering and death among innocent people to stop doing that successfully, you might show us how Islam can be useful in solving religious ignorance.

The problem with humans is they delegate responsibility of this to others. I have been trying to convince and reform Muslims for a long time.

Yet while people who recite the book are more responsible to uphold the truth and spread the true message, no human is really off the hook completely, in that, they can just not care and be apathetic and get away with it.

It is hard to NOT be unenthusiastic about arguing with the fools when the fools have the bombs and AK-47s and think nothing of murdering those who do not accept their version of Islam as the only correct one.  It is obvious then, to us atheists, that this Allah should have written a much better Quran that made it clear what was important, and to preclude all forms of religious violence.  Instead, we get a book crammed with silly tall tales.  Comets chasing djinns away from Allah's throne.  Birds killing an elephant by dropping pebbles on it.  The silly tale of God and Magog  the two giants.  This book is not the work of a giant intellect.  Not Allah's, nor Mohammads.

You've made some effort to read and understand Quran. However you rely too much on what Muslims or hadiths they authenticate say about it.

For example, the comets. This is a dumb interpretation. The context shows it's about the spiritual realm and the sky is revealed in that context connected to that.  See Suratal Hijr for example. Read the verses preceding it.

This is the spiritual position of Ahlulbayt in the sky connected to this world, they fight off Iblis forces and help against the devils.
#39

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
In other words, there is nothing so stupid in any religious book that can't be rationalized away if we have imagination enough.
Plunk your magic twanger Froggy!   Boinnnnnng!  Hiya Kids!  Hiya! Hiya!



#40

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 05:21 AM)Link Wrote: The point is Atheists always say "what version of God" or "what version of that religion", and they assume it's very hard to reach proper decisive conclusions.

I've shown in the case if the Quran is revealed from God,  than no doubt, Shiites are correct about the family of Mohammad.   You can say well 90% of Muslims interpret differently or don't believe, but it doesn't do away with how clear and evident the family of Mohammad are in the Quran.

Citing a book of myths as the basis for an authority that we don't give a shit about. How many levels of pointless do you need to stack up?
The following 1 user Likes Paleophyte's post:
  • SYZ
#41

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 05:21 AM)Link Wrote: The point is Atheists always say "what version of God" or "what version of that religion", and they assume it's very hard to reach proper decisive conclusions.

I've shown in the case if the Quran is revealed from God,  than no doubt, Shiites are correct about the family of Mohammad.   You can say well 90% of Muslims interpret differently or don't believe, but it doesn't do away with how clear and evident the family of Mohammad are in the Quran.

This is what you need to work on. None of us are convinced that the Quran is revealed from God. You haven't provided proof of a god, & you haven't provided proof that the Quran has anything to do with any real deity. Until you solve these issues, we have no reason to care about the rest of it.
The following 7 users Like isbelldl's post:
  • Minimalist, Reltzik, Astreja, Paleophyte, brunumb, Finite Monkeys, skyking
#42

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 05:21 AM)Link Wrote: The point is Atheists always say "what version of God" or "what version of that religion", and they assume it's very hard to reach proper decisive conclusions.

I've shown in the case if the Quran is revealed from God,  than no doubt, Shiites are correct about the family of Mohammad.   You can say well 90% of Muslims interpret differently or don't believe, but it doesn't do away with how clear and evident the family of Mohammad are in the Quran.

For fuck's sake mate...  read my fucking lips...

ATHEISTS DON'T CARE WHATEVER YOUR NUTJOB RELIGION TEACHES—IT'S ALL ABSURDIST BULLSHIT.
WE DON'T CARE IT ISLAM HAS TWO FACTIONS OR 22 FACTIONS THAT WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER.

IT'S YOUR PROBLEM!
     YOU SOLVE IT.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
The following 3 users Like SYZ's post:
  • Minimalist, Finite Monkeys, Chas
#43

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Lesson to Atheists: Don't make arguments out of conjecture. Build on certainty, and not rely on doubt.
#44

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 02:29 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: In other words, there is nothing so stupid in any religious book that can't be rationalized away if we have imagination enough.

There is only one possible interpretation in all authors words, and it's the one they meant.  This is why scholars to human writing have to study historical context and not just give words meaning as they please.  Yes, people can misunderstand and especially when they isolate a verse way out of context, but if you give Quran the same treatment and not less than what you do with other people words; let them contextualize each other; it becomes so simple and clear and deep and meaning starts to vividly guide.

In fact, Quran is the clearest of all books, because, once you get to know God through it,  you know how to drink from it and interpret correctly in a way of certainty, while such certainty doesn't exist in other literature interpretation fully.

That said, Quran and the family of that reminder, cannot be separated.  Those who do cut one from the other, do so, at their own peril.
#45

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-09-2020, 03:15 PM)Link Wrote: Lesson to Atheists: Don't make arguments out of conjecture. Build on certainty, and not rely on doubt.


That could well be the single stupidest thing you've ever said.  They don't give a Nobel Prize for Stupidity, Link.  You're wasting your time.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • Finite Monkeys
#46

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-09-2020, 03:27 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(04-09-2020, 03:15 PM)Link Wrote: Lesson to Atheists: Don't make arguments out of conjecture. Build on certainty, and not rely on doubt.


That could well be the single stupidest thing you've ever said.  They don't give a Nobel Prize for Stupidity, Link.  You're wasting your time.

Could be or could be one of the wisest.
#47

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Provide evidence. You need evidence for any chance at certainty. Without it you're wasting everyone's time.
#48

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Hey Zelda, is the reason you continually post this dribble because the voices in your head have stopped talking back?
#49

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-09-2020, 03:30 PM)Link Wrote:
(04-09-2020, 03:27 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(04-09-2020, 03:15 PM)Link Wrote: Lesson to Atheists: Don't make arguments out of conjecture. Build on certainty, and not rely on doubt.


That could well be the single stupidest thing you've ever said.  They don't give a Nobel Prize for Stupidity, Link.  You're wasting your time.

Could be or could be one of the wisest.

Irony is lost on Fundie nutjobs.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
#50

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-09-2020, 03:15 PM)Link Wrote: Lesson to Atheists: Don't make arguments out of conjecture. Build on certainty, and not rely on doubt.

Lesson learnt, thanks Link.  Before, I was fairly certain that God did not exist, but then I built on that and now I have no doubt. Nod
No gods necessary




Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)