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Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
#1

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
It's always said by Atheists from my experience,  what sect of Islam is right so to even consider accepting the religion.  They assume because there are so much unresolved differences, that there is no clear proof and decisive way to solve the sectarian dispute.

Part of what I proposed for Atheists, is the working all together or backward approach. Don't just start researching religions when you believe in God or otherwise don't.   The reason being is God's guidance would be best way to prove God and firmly establish his link and prove his relationship to humans, and would be truly the guidance if there was a guidance. 

To settle for humans to come to you and explain everything to you, and you seeing these humans as nobody, is setting yourself up for failure.

The Sunni-Shia dispute for example is very easy to solve. 

(1) The verses about past guidance and way of God are relevant to the today's time.
(2) The verses about the chosen houses/families take meaning with the current family of the reminder.
(3) The reward verses that Messengers are accused of seeking go together, and 42:23 in connection to that, is saying whatever you see us seeking a reward from authority to power to moral landscaping to fame etc, it's only asking you to recognize and love us for who we are, while 25:57 says what reward (do you accuse of us seeking) except that it is for who wants, to take a path to their Lord.  The many verses about chosen offspring and family, give context to the meaning of "the kin/kinsfolk" in 42:23.
(4) The flow to 4:59 by contextual rules of language, prove the Messenger and those who possess the Authority from us, are those who are compared to the household of Abraham (a) in 4:54 and are made to contrast the clergy authority of Christian and Jews who were opposing them (household of Mohammad (s)) and envying them.   The comparison makes a clear case they are a chosen household as well.

There are many more clear proofs and examples to show, but this should suffice.

Now a person might ask, then say Shiites are right, what is the proof that Twelver Shiites are right.

Apply (1) and (2), then there are verses by comparison to the Successors of Moses' (a) implying there are Twelve Successors to Mohammad (s). And there is even specifically a verse that is not even allusion to the past, but straight reference to Mohammad's (s) successors being twelve but you have to understand original Arabic and not translations to see this.

That and consistency is expected and only relevant information in Quran is expected.

It's that easy. It's that simple. It's that clear.
#2

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
god is make-believe.

It's that easy. It's that simple. It's that clear.
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#3

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
[Image: images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTWS0cz3gpIkHXxzX9Bk...e&usqp=CAU]
[Image: signature%20The-Ascension-of-Iweko.jpg]
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#4

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
^That's a choice you will regret then.
#5

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:35 PM)Link Wrote: ^That's a choice you will regret then.

Your threats don't hold weight.
#6

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
They do.
#7

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 03:10 PM)Link Wrote: They do. <insert-virtual-stamping-of-feet-and-pouting-here>

[Image: fixed.gif]
[Image: signature%20The-Ascension-of-Iweko.jpg]
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#8

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Quote:Part of what I proposed for Atheists, is the working all together or backward approach

The absolute last thing that islam needs is a backwards approach.

And you'll find that atheists do not give a flying fuck one way or the other.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
#9

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
I don't have any flying fucks to give even if I wanted to.
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#10

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:09 PM)Link Wrote: It's always said by Atheists from my experience,  what sect of Islam is right so to even consider accepting the religion.  They assume because there are so much unresolved differences, that there is no clear proof and decisive way to solve the sectarian dispute.

Part of what I proposed for Atheists, is the working all together or backward approach. Don't just start researching religions when you believe in God or otherwise don't.   The reason being is God's guidance would be best way to prove God and firmly establish his link and prove his relationship to humans, and would be truly the guidance if there was a guidance. 

To settle for humans to come to you and explain everything to you, and you seeing these humans as nobody, is setting yourself up for failure.

The Sunni-Shia dispute for example is very easy to solve. 

(1) The verses about past guidance and way of God are relevant to the today's time.
(2) The verses about the chosen houses/families take meaning with the current family of the reminder.
(3) The reward verses that Messengers are accused of seeking go together, and 42:23 in connection to that, is saying whatever you see us seeking a reward from authority to power to moral landscaping to fame etc, it's only asking you to recognize and love us for who we are, while 25:57 says what reward (do you accuse of us seeking) except that it is for who wants, to take a path to their Lord.  The many verses about chosen offspring and family, give context to the meaning of "the kin/kinsfolk" in 42:23.
(4) The flow to 4:59 by contextual rules of language, prove the Messenger and those who possess the Authority from us, are those who are compared to the household of Abraham (a) in 4:54 and are made to contrast the clergy authority of Christian and Jews who were opposing them (household of Mohammad (s)) and envying them.   The comparison makes a clear case they are a chosen household as well.

There are many more clear proofs and examples to show, but this should suffice.

Now a person might ask, then say Shiites are right, what is the proof that Twelver Shiites are right.

Apply (1) and (2), then there are verses by comparison to the Successors of Moses' (a) implying there are Twelve Successors to Mohammad (s). And there is even specifically a verse that is not even allusion to the past, but straight reference to Mohammad's (s) successors being twelve but you have to understand original Arabic and not translations to see this.

That and consistency is expected and only relevant information in Quran is expected.

It's that easy. It's that simple. It's that clear.

One of the big rules of narrative presentation is "show, don't tell".  Instead of telling us that it's that easy, that simple, and that clear, how about you show us instead?  Just take this to the Shiites and Suunis of the world and get them to accept it en masse.

I mean, really.  If this is so simple, easy, and clear, then what sense does it make to spend your time telling it to us?  Given your stated goals, it's about the worst approach you could take.  Why not tell it to the sectarian Muslims of the world instead?  Just look at all the advantages of that strategy over what you're going with here.

1)  You're 90% of the way there with them.  They already believe the Quran, and in the existence of Allah, and the authority of Mohamed's teachings, and there being any authoritative legitimacy to the concept of successors of Mohamed, and all the rest of it.  They're more likely to know the Quran verses you're citing, more likely to understand them in the broader context of the Quran, the Hadith, and Islam in general, and more likely to regard them as authoritative.  For the effort it takes you to get through to a single atheist, you should be able to get through to 10 sectarian Muslims.  Since I presume you only have so much time in your day, isn't that a more efficient use of such a limited resource?

2)  It's more important to convince them.  On the one hand, you've got us, who are generally carrying on snarky and not giving you and your religion the respect you feel you both deserve.  On the other hand, you've got (as just one example) extremist sectarian Muslims along the lines of ISIS committing a host of horrific crimes against humanity, including the murder of fellow Muslims for being the wrong type of Muslim.  By what moral calculus would you try to stop the snark before stopping the murders?

3)  Fixing the sectarian divide before convincing us that the sectarian divide isn't a big deal would have the added benefit of depriving us of a sectarian divide to point to and make a big deal out of.  It would also show us that it's really that easy, really that simple, and really that clear, rather than tell us.

In summary, if you actually believed what you've said, you'd accomplish a far greater good, far easier, by bringing it to people other than us, and doing so would be something of a 2-for-1 deal since it would go a long way towards convincing us that what you're saying is a good point.

The fact that you're prioritizing us over your fellow Muslims suggests to me that you know that the particular approach you're taking to solving the sectarian divide in Islam doesn't work with people who really know the religion.  That it has no value as anything more than a smokescreen to deceive outsiders.  The very fact that you're bringing it to us before them shows me that you don't actually believe it's that simple, that easy, and that clear.

If you want to convince me otherwise?  Show, don't tell.
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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#11

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Because he knows they will throw rocks at his head.  We won't.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#12

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:35 PM)Link Wrote: ^That's a choice you will regret then.

Oh lookey. 
Link makes a threat. 
Pascal's Wager ... yet again. 
Link's reply above assumes that someone can say they believe when they really don't ... and his deity is too stupid to know the difference. 
No one cares which sect of that nonsense is more crazy than the other craziness. It's all bullshit. 
Why is this bullshit being posted on an atheist site ?
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#13

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 03:10 PM)Link Wrote: They do.

That's what thousands and thousands of religious nut-cases have said, stomping their impotent little feet, for thousands of years. 
And this fool actually thinks that he is *the one* of them that's special.  Chuckle

Actually what we see here, is an ignoramus, totally unschooled, and unaware that these days, even among some Islamic scholars and Philosophers of Religion, "inculpable non-belief" is widely discussed, as it relates to "the hiddenenss of God" (Schellenberger) . Link is not even conversant with contemporary topics in his own field of bullshit. Instead of actually learning and studying, he thinks it's cool to threaten people who are just being honest. He, like a 2 year old, requires that others share his opinions. What a fucktard. European/liberal Christianity at least recognizes that salvation is not denied to those who honestly follow their conscience.
#14

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Nothing is more pathetic than threats of hellfire and damnation. Whether it is from one of our own Texan moron fundy preachers, or some Moslem true believer. We have been hearing that crap all our lives. Perhaps if you instead wasted your time getting all of those Islamic radicals who are murdering, killing and inflicting suffering and death among innocent people to stop doing that successfully, you might show us how Islam can be useful in solving religious ignorance.
Plunk your magic twanger Froggy!   Boinnnnnng!  Hiya Kids!  Hiya! Hiya!



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#15

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:09 PM)Link Wrote: There are many more clear proofs and examples to show, but this should suffice.

Now a person might ask, then say Shiites are right, what is the proof that Twelver Shiites are right.

Apply (1) and (2), then there are verses by comparison to the Successors of Moses' (a) implying there are Twelve Successors to Mohammad (s). And there is even specifically a verse that is not even allusion to the past, but straight reference to Mohammad's (s) successors being twelve but you have to understand original Arabic and not translations to see this.

That and consistency is expected and only relevant information in Quran is expected.

It's that easy. It's that simple. It's that clear.

90% of Muslims don't believe you. Why should we?

It's that easy. It's that simple. It's that clear.
#16

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
I don't care what they do so long as they stop killing others for believing in the wrong Tooth Fairy.
Freedom isn't free.
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#17

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:09 PM)Link Wrote: There are many more clear proofs and examples to show, but this should suffice.

It's not sufficient. No one here buys ANY, can you read ? ... ANY of your bullshit. 

Quote:Now a person might ask, then say Shiites are right, what is the proof that Twelver Shiites are right.

No. Not here. No one cares about this bullshit, here. 

Quote:Apply (1) and (2), then there are verses by comparison to the Successors of Moses' (a) implying there are Twelve Successors to Mohammad (s). And there is even specifically a verse that is not even allusion to the past, but straight reference to Mohammad's (s) successors being twelve but you have to understand original Arabic and not translations to see this.

No one cares. We get you are totally obsessed with this crap. No one here is. 
Your mental illness is your problem, and you have the responsibility to get treated for it. 

Quote:That and consistency is expected and only relevant information in Quran is expected.

Maybe you do ... we know there are countless contradictions in your book. 
Post this garbage somewhere else.
#18

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:35 PM)Link Wrote: ^That's a choice you will regret then.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  You may as well threaten us with Thor's hammer.......or is it Odin....I forget.
                                                         T4618
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#19

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 01:36 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 01:35 PM)Link Wrote: ^That's a choice you will regret then.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  You may as well threaten us with Thor's hammer.......or is it Odin....I forget.

Thor's hammer.  Odin has a spear and an eight-legged horse.
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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#20

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-03-2020, 01:49 AM)Reltzik Wrote:
(04-03-2020, 01:36 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 01:35 PM)Link Wrote: ^That's a choice you will regret then.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  You may as well threaten us with Thor's hammer.......or is it Odin....I forget.

Thor's hammer.  Odin has a spear and an eight-legged horse.

Thanks!  And of course it's all true.  I believe it because you wrote it down.    Whistling
                                                         T4618
#21

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:35 PM)Link Wrote: ^That's a choice you will regret then.

I got 99 regrets and Islam ain't one.
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#22

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:35 PM)Link Wrote: ^That's a choice you will regret then.

(04-03-2020, 01:36 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  You may as well threaten us with Thor's hammer.......or is it Odin....I forget.

(04-03-2020, 01:49 AM)Reltzik Wrote: Thor's hammer.  Odin has a spear and an eight-legged horse.

Fun Norse Fact (for values of "Fact" → 0):  The mother of Sleipnir, the eight-legged horse, is... (drum roll) Loki!


Link, the reason I'm not interested in Islam is that I just don't believe in gods.  I simply have no need for your religion.
#23

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Poor Link. He's a few bricks shy of a load. And on top of that he has a mental illness.
[Image: signature%20The-Ascension-of-Iweko.jpg]
#24

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
(04-02-2020, 01:09 PM)Link Wrote: It's always said by Atheists from my experience,  what sect of Islam is right so to even consider accepting the religion.

It's more than obvious you still don't comprehend the meaning of the terms atheist or atheism.  
And you've probably never even considered the term "ignostic", which describes me.  It's totally your
decision as to which sect of Islam is the correct [sic] one.

Quote:They assume because there are so much unresolved differences, that there is no clear proof and decisive way to solve the sectarian dispute.

No.  Atheists do not "assume" any such thing.  Again, it's your problem for you to solve.  
We don't give a fuck.

Quote:Part of what I proposed for Atheists, is the working all together or backward approach. Don't just start researching religions when you believe in God or otherwise don't.   The reason being is God's guidance would be best way to prove God and firmly establish his link and prove his relationship to humans, and would be truly the guidance if there was a guidance.

God or gods do not exist.  You've not provided any evidence to the contrary.  The notion of gods existing
is simply fantasy fiction.  And how dare you preach to us atheists as to what we should do?   Piss off.

Quote:The Sunni-Shia dispute for example is very easy to solve. 

And yet again, that's your problem—it has nothing, zero, nada, zilch to do with atheists.

Quote:It's that easy. It's that simple. It's that clear.

LOL... your pathetic religion is so internally fucked that you're here on an atheist forum asking/telling
us how to sort out the contradictory Sunni and Shia opinions on hadith.  We have far better, more
constructive things to do with our time, rather than concerning ourselves with the rights or wrong of
some ancient, barbaric religion that should've been consigned to the global trash can centuries ago.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#25

Is the sectarian division in Islam impossible to get through?
Link, the main reason that atheists talk about the Sunni vs. Shia issue at all is that it points out a major problem:

Most religions, not just Islam, are divided into two or more sects. These can range from a few divisions (e.g. the differences between Soto and Rinzai Zen, or between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism) to tens of thousands (e.g. Christianity).

How can you possibly expect non-believers to see your beliefs as "the truth" when you can't even convince people from another variety of the same religion?
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