Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
#26

What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
(04-01-2020, 10:20 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(04-01-2020, 05:40 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Rene Descartes, Letter to Arnauld, 29 July 1648

 Secondly, it arises because we have recourse to the divine
power: knowing this to be infinite, we attribute to it an effect without
noticing that the effect involves a contradictory conception, that is, is
inconceivable by us. But I do not think that we should ever say of anything
that it cannot be brought about by God. For since every basis of truth and
goodness depends on his omnipotence, I would not dare to say that God
cannot make a mountain without a valley, or bring it about that 1 and 2.
are not 3. I merely say that he has given me such a mind that I cannot
conceive a mountain without a valley, or a sum of 1 and 2 which is not 3;
such things involve a contradiction in my conception.
----

It is something of a dogma, for example from Aquinas, that God cannot do the illogical, God cannot make a square circle for example.  Which would seem to mean that logic is something God is subject to.

Descartes seems to disagree.  This then is a metaphysical puzzle for theology.  Who is correct, Aquinas or Descartes?
And how would theologians/metaphysicians investigate the issue to a sure conclusion?  If God can do anything, as Descartes
thinks, and God is good, God would create a world without moral evil.  We do not live in such a world, which demonstrates either God is not good, cannot do so, or does not exist.

If logic is a sort of thing that God is subject to, and cannot ignore, what is that and where does it come from?  And why does God then seem to lack cleverness to work within logic's limitations.

Somebody should have asked Aquinas or Descartes why an all-powerful being always needs money.  Dodgy

He keeps losing it all at the blackjack table.
Don't mistake me for those nice folks from Give-A-Shit county.
The following 1 user Likes Old Man Marsh's post:
  • Gwaithmir
Reply
#27

What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
(04-02-2020, 01:39 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 12:51 PM)Link Wrote: God is the source of logic. He is rational. Just as peace, safety, compassion, and goodness all derive from his essence and as descent from him.

 I think what people are saying is that god (should it exist) is the source of OUR logic, which my not be its, therefore how could you possibly know any attributes you apply to it are true ?

If God is the source of logic, then his existence is absurd. Yet if God is not the source of logic, his existence is also absurd. It's a no-win situation.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
The following 1 user Likes Dānu's post:
  • possibletarian
Reply
#28

What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
Yes. Simplicity of God claims God is the source of logic, and all metaphysical necessities, abstract objects in philosophy speak. That underlies TAG and presuppositionalism. But if so, that claim has problems. This is why I find Descartes so very interesting. His claims are of the sort, once read, cannot be unread, it becomes an issue that makes the very issue of logic and reason a problem for God. Theologians still struggle to define omnipotence, and what limits God has in this regard, if any. The issue undermines all theodicies, makes the Problem of Evil a live issue again. It means supposed mysterious reasons God has to do things we cannot hope to understand that explain these problems become non-issues if God creates the rules, laws and very logic of the universe. He has no limits. So all special pleading of that sort is dead on arrival.

Underlying this all is the supposed Simplicty of God, a metaphysical claim found early on in Christianity, in Irenaeus and Clement of Alexander. Which has been accepted as dogma by major Christian sects since then, and still is. We can trace that sort of idea back to Xenophanes with his theoretical all powerful, non-anthropomorphic super God. This is rather interesting to me to see how theology has dug itself a rather deep hole.
I am a sovereign citizen of the Multiverse, and I vote!


The following 2 users Like Cheerful Charlie's post:
  • Dānu, possibletarian
Reply
#29

What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
Wait....."What do WE mean by omnipotent?"     You mean, what do THEISTS mean by omnipotent.    Generally omnipotence means whatever theists want it to mean when they're arguing their case.  Their god definition is so mercurial that they can resize him to fit whatever suit they want him to wear.   Which is also why their god is non falsifiable.
                                                         T4618
The following 2 users Like Dancefortwo's post:
  • possibletarian, SYZ
Reply
#30

What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
Who do we mean by "We"? The bumbling, ignorant true believers, creationists, fundies and that sort? Or the sophisticated theologians who are ever so sophisticated but unable to really settle all of this to anybody's satisfaction? There are vast herds of these who can't agree on much, many hampered by heavy balls and chains of denomination dogmas.
I am a sovereign citizen of the Multiverse, and I vote!


The following 1 user Likes Cheerful Charlie's post:
  • Dancefortwo
Reply
#31

What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
(04-02-2020, 12:51 PM)Link Wrote: God is the source of logic. He is rational. Just as peace, safety, compassion, and goodness all derive from his essence and as descent from him.

I dunno whether to laugh or cry at this sort of blatant stupidity.  It's like me citing Peter Pan as the source of human morality LOL.

As I've said before, Link is as thick as two short planks.      Facepalm
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
The following 2 users Like SYZ's post:
  • Dancefortwo, brunumb
Reply
#32

What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
So God creates logic, the rules of the Universe, the laws of the Universe. So say the presuppositionalists, the TAG believers, those who hold that God is simple and nothing exists beyond and outside of God, including logic, God creates that.

Why then is their moral evil? God could create a universe where man has free will, such as god supposedly enjoys, has a good moral nature such as god enjoys, and freely chooses to do only moral good, such as god supposedly does.

Why does God create a universe with original sin, and does not eliminate original sin that damages our free will and inclines us to sin? Why does God allow Satan and his devils freedom to cause moral evil? Why does God not clearly demonstrate his existence by unmistakable physical manifestations such as supposedly shown to mankind in the Old Testament?

A being supposedly supremely good, the source of all goodness, and the source of all logic, law and rules of the very Universe should give us a far different universe than the one we are obviously subject to.

The problem is, a perfectly good God that creates the very logic of the Universe does not seem to exist. Trying to argue around that is the only job theology has. Saving appearances. Finding out what lame excuses people will buy and pushing that sophistry hard and fast.
I am a sovereign citizen of the Multiverse, and I vote!


The following 2 users Like Cheerful Charlie's post:
  • brunumb, mordant
Reply
#33

What Do We Mean By Omnipotent?
(04-02-2020, 12:51 PM)Link Wrote: God is the source of logic. He is rational. Just as peace, safety, compassion, and goodness all derive from his essence and as descent from him.

And your evidence for this outrageous statement is..........???  Thinking
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)