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Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
#1

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
Long ago, I went through the Quran and collected the verses that tell us we have no free will, that Allah has decided whom to lead and whom to lead astray, et al.  In a debate with Link, we have some variance of opinion about this issue.  It is in the end, about the problem of Allah, who is supposedly merciful and compassionate, as each sura starts out proclaiming, our lack of free will at Allah's pleasure and the problem of the existence of moral evil.

The source of all of this problem is in the Quran.  And then the theologians dance begins to try to make this seem not to be the problem it is.  It is a bit of a long read, but that is sometimes necessary to pound the point home when debating those who do not want to admit this is all a problem.

--------
Quran - Predestination - proof texts - list
---------------------------------------------
The Project Gutenberg EBook of Three Translations of The Koran
(Al-Qur'an)
side by side

www.gutenberg.net

Title: Three Translations of The Koran (Al-Qur'an) side by side

Translator: Abdullah Yusuf Ali  - Y
Translator: Marmaduke Pickthall - P
Translator: Mohammad Habib Shakir - S

Release Date: October 27, 2Sura 5 [EBook #16955]

Language: English
---------------------------------------------------------

Translator: Abdullah Yusuf Ali  - (all)

1.
Sura 2.253 - AL-BAQARA (THE COW)

Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To
one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of
honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and
strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed,
succeeding generations would not have fought among each other,
after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to
wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so
willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah
Fulfilleth His plan.

---------
2.

Sura 6.035 - AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK)

If their spurning is hard on thy mind, yet if thou wert able to
seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring
them a sign,- (what good?). If it were Allah's will, He could
gather them together unto true guidance: so be not thou amongst
those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience)!

---
3.
Sura 6.107 - AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK)

If it had been Allah's plan, they would not have taken false
gods: but We made thee not one to watch over their doings, nor
art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

---
4.
Sura 6.125 -  AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK)

Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth
their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,-
He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to
climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on
those who refuse to believe. He who obeys the Messenger, obeys
Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over
their (evil deeds).

---
4.
Sura 6.137 - AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK)

Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners"
made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead
them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their
religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so: But
leave alone them and their inventions.

---
5.
Sura 6.149 - AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK)

Say: "With Allah is the argument that reaches home: if it had
been His will, He could indeed have guided you all."

---
6.
Sura 7.177 - AL-ARAF (THE HEIGHTS)

Evil as an example are people who reject Our signs and wrong
their own souls.

Sura 7.178 - AL-ARAF (THE HEIGHTS)

Whom Allah doth guide,- he is on the right path: whom He rejects
from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish.

Sura 7.179 - AL-ARAF (THE HEIGHTS)

Many are the jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have
hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see
not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,-
nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

---
7.
Sura 9.051 - AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION)

Say: "Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed
for us: He is our protector": and on Allah let the Believers put
their trust.

---
8.
Sura 10.025  - YUNUS (JONAH)

But Allah doth call to the Home of Peace: He doth guide whom He
pleaseth to a way that is straight.

---
9.
Sura 10.099 - YUNUS (JONAH)

If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,-
all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against
their will, to believe!

Sura 10.100  - YUNUS (JONAH)

No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will
place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.

---
10.

Sura 11.034 -  HUD (HUD)

"Of no profit will be my counsel to you, much as I desire to
give you (good) counsel, if it be that Allah willeth to leave
you astray: He is your Lord! and to Him will ye return!"

11.
Sura 11.118  -  HUD (HUD)

If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one
people: but they will not cease to dispute.


Sura 11.119 -  HUD (HUD)

Except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy: and
for this did He create them: and the Word of thy Lord shall be
fulfilled: "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

---
12.

Sura 13.026 - AL-RAD (THE THUNDER)

Allah doth enlarge, or grant by (strict) measure, the sustenance
(which He giveth) to whomso He pleaseth. (The wordly) rejoice in
the life of this world: But the life of this world is but little
comfort in the Hereafter.

Sura 13.027 - AL-RAD (THE THUNDER)

The Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from
his Lord?" Say: "Truly Allah leaveth, to stray, whom He will;
But He guideth to Himself those who turn to Him in penitence,-"

---
13.

Sura 13.039 - AL-RAD (THE THUNDER)

Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the
Mother of the Book.

---
14.

Sura 14.004 - IBRAHIM (ABRAHAM)

We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of
his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now
Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He
pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

---
15.
Sura 14.027 - IBRAHIM (ABRAHAM)

Allah will establish in strength those who believe, with the
word that stands firm, in this world and in the Hereafter; but
Allah will leave, to stray, those who do wrong: Allah doeth what
He willeth.

---
16.

Sura 16.093 - AN-NAHL (THE BEE)

If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He
leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases:
but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your
actions.

---

17.
Sura 020.050 - TA-HA (TA-HA)
Y:
He said: "Our Lord is He Who gave to each
(created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it)
guidance." P: He said: Our Lord is He Who gave unto everything
its nature, then guided it aright.

---

18.

Sura 32.013 -  AS-SAJDA (THE PROSTRATION, WORSHIP, ADORATION)

If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul
its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will
fill Hell with jinns and men all together."

---
19.

Sura 35.008 - FATIR (THE ANGELS, ORIGINATOR)

Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring,
so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly
guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides
whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing
after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!

---
20.

Sura 39.023 - AZ-ZUMAR (THE TROOPS, THRONGS)

Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful
Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet)
repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those
who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their
hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is
the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but
such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

---
21.

Sura 39.037 - AZ-ZUMAR (THE TROOPS, THRONGS)

And such as Allah doth guide there can be none to lead astray.
Is not Allah Exalted in Power, (Able to enforce His Will), Lord
of Retribution?


---
22.
Sura 42.044 - ASH-SHURA (COUNCIL, CONSULTATION)

For any whom Allah leaves astray, there is no protector
thereafter. And thou wilt see the Wrong-doers, when in sight of
the Penalty, Say: "Is there any way (to effect) a return?"

---
23.
Sura 42.046 - ASH-SHURA (COUNCIL, CONSULTATION)

And no protectors have they to help them, other than Allah. And
for any whom Allah leaves to stray, there is no way (to the
Goal).

---
24.
Sura 57.022 - AL-HADID (THE IRON)

No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is
recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence: That is
truly easy for Allah:

---
25.

Sura 74.031 - AL-MUDDATHTHIR (THE CLOAKED ONE, THE MAN WEARING A
CLOAK)

And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We
have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in
order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and
the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be
left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that
those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say,
"What symbol doth Allah intend by this?" Thus doth Allah leave
to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none
can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other
than a warning to mankind.

----

26.

Sura 074.054 - AL-MUDDATHTHIR (THE CLOAKED ONE, THE MAN WEARING
               A CLOAK)

Nay, this surely is an admonition:

074.055
Let any who will, keep it in remembrance!

074.056
But none will keep it in remembrance except as Allah wills: He
is the Lord of Righteousness, and the Lord of Forgiveness.

---
27.

Sura 76.029 - AL-MULK (THE SOVEREIGNTY, CONTROL)

This is an admonition: Whosoever will, let him take a (straight)
Path to his Lord.

Sura 76.030

But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of
Knowledge and Wisdom.

Sura 76.031

He will admit to His Mercy whom He will; But the
wrong-doers,- for them has He prepared a grievous Penalty.


----
28.

Sura 81.028-9 - AT-TAKWIR (THE OVERTHROWING)

(With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight:
But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of
the Worlds.


---
Plunk your magic twanger Froggy!   Boinnnnnng!  Hiya Kids!  Hiya! Hiya!



The following 3 users Like Cheerful Charlie's post:
  • Hussein, Phaedrus, Alan V
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#2

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
Thanks for this topic. 3:7 is important in this regard. Stick to the clear, and leave the unclear of Quran, till it becomes clear.

I will post a letter of Imam Ali Al-Hadi (a) and many other hadiths pertaining to this.

Thank you again.
Reply
#3

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
Peace friend,

I've found it but it's hard to copy paste. Go to this link: http://islamicblessings.com/upload/Tuhaf...0Uqoul.pdf

And on the side top left, put the page 403. The title of the letter is "Imam Al-Hadi’s Message  the reply on Fatalists and Indeterminists and the verification of God’s justice and the belief of intermediacy"

You can read the letter there and we can have a discussion about it.  I think Imam Ali Hadi (a) proved everything in that letter that needed to be said.
Reply
#4

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
I will summarize it to be: "Without God's help we can't obey him nor can we disobey him unless God permits it yet in all that, we are free to seek his help and strive to obey him and avoid sins. The oppressive one to themselves is who turns away from God's help (guidance) and doesn't seek it, and when reminded, chooses to not believe."

Of course, none of this happens outside his permission, but it's obvious by many verses God wants people to be good, and submit to him and seek his help.
Reply
#5

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
Actually that letter of Imam Ali Al-Hadi (a) quotes most of the hadiths I know about this subject and if not more.
Reply
#6

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
(03-23-2020, 01:36 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  It is a bit of a long read, but that is sometimes necessary to pound the point home when debating those who do not want to admit this is all a problem.
---

I thought I'd add another verse to your list, which is quite explicit.

28:68:

Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!

translation by M. M. Pickthall
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  • Alan V
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#7

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
(03-23-2020, 02:10 PM)Hussein Wrote:
(03-23-2020, 01:36 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  It is a bit of a long read, but that is sometimes necessary to pound the point home when debating those who do not want to admit this is all a problem.
---

I thought I'd add another verse to your list, which is quite explicit.

28:68:

Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!

translation by M. M. Pickthall

This verse is in context of human and jinn gods or representatives of gods humans choose, it's saying aside from the irrationality of equating with God others,  they have no choice in the matter, God chooses the guides and manifests who he wants as pure.

This is nothing to do with the topic,  it's way out of context bro.
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  • Hussein
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#8

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
And it's bad translation.

Should be.

And your Lord creates and chooses, to them belongs no choice, glorified and exalted be God above what they associate.
Reply
#9

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
And now for something completely different. Verses in the Quran that support the idea we do have free will in contrast to the above list that demonstrates that the Quran claims we do not. This list is representative and not by any means exhaustive.

004.082 AN-NISA (WOMEN)
Y: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other
Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

P: Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other
than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

S: Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other
than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
---------------

Quran - Free Will proof texts.
--------------------------------------------
The Project Gutenberg EBook of Three Translations of The Koran
(Al-Qur'an)
side by side

www.gutenberg.net

Title: Three Translations of The Koran (Al-Qur'an) side by side

Translator: Abdullah Yusuf Ali - Y
Translator: Marmaduke Pickthall - P
Translator: Mohammad Habib Shakir - S

Release Date: October 27, 2005 [EBook #16955]

Language: English
---------------------------------------------------------

Translator: Abdullah Yusuf Ali - (all)

----------
Proof Texts that suggest we have free will.

1.
002.143 - AL-BAQARA (THE COW)

Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might
be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over
yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used,
only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who
would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A
change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never
would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all
people most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

---
2.
003.152 - AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN)

Allah did indeed fulfil His promise to you when ye with His
permission Were about to annihilate your enemy,-until ye flinched
and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed it after He
brought you in sight (of the booty) which ye covet. Among you are
some that hanker after this world and some that desire the
Hereafter. Then did He divert you from your foes in order to test
you but He forgave you: For Allah is full of grace to those who
believe.

---
3.
004.040 - AN-NISA (WOMEN)

Allah is never unjust in the least degree: If there is any good
(done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great
reward.

---
4.
004.079 - AN-NISA (WOMEN)

Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but
whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. And We
have sent thee as a messenger to (instruct) mankind. And enough
is Allah for a witness.

---
5.
004.135 - AN-NISA (WOMEN)

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to
Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin,
and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best
protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye
swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice,
verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

---
6.
005.094 - AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)

O ye who believe! Allah doth but make a trial of you in a little
matter of game well within reach of your hands and your lances,
that He may test who feareth him unseen: any who transgress
thereafter, will have a grievous penalty.

---
7.
006.165 - AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK)

It is He Who hath made you (His) agents, inheritors of the earth:
He hath raised you in ranks, some above others: that He may try
you in the gifts He hath given you: for thy Lord is quick in
punishment: yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

---
8.
006.160 - AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK)

He that doeth good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He
that doeth evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil:
no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them.

----
9.
010.108 - YUNUS (JONAH)

Say: "O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those
who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls;
those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over
you to arrange your affairs."

10.
010.109 - YUNUS (JONAH)

Follow thou the inspiration sent unto thee, and be patient and
constant, till Allah do decide: for He is the best to decide.

-------
11.
016.090 - AN-NAHL (THE BEE)

Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith
and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and
rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition.

---
12.
016.097 - AN-NAHL (THE BEE)

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily,
to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and
We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of
their actions.

---
13.
017.007 - AL-ISRA (ISRA', THE NIGHT JOURNEY, CHILDREN OF
ISRAEL)

If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye
did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings
came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your
faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before,
and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.


---
14.
018.007 - AL-KAHF (THE CAVE)

That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for
the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them
are best in conduct.

---
15.
018.029 - AL-KAHF (THE CAVE)

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and
let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have
prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof
of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be
granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how
dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

---
16.
018.030 - AL-KAHF (THE CAVE)

As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall
not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single)
righteous deed.

---
17.
018.055 - AL-KAHF (THE CAVE)

And what is there to keep back men from believing, now that
Guidance has come to them, nor from praying for forgiveness from
their Lord, but that (they ask that) the ways of the ancients be
repeated with them, or the Wrath be brought to them face to face?
---

18.
023.030 - AL-MUMENOON (THE BELIEVERS)

Verily in this there are Signs (for men to understand); (thus) do
We try (men). P: Lo! herein verily are portents, for lo! We are
ever putting (mankind) to the test.

---
19.

028.067 - AL-QASAS (THE STORY, STORIES)

But any that (in this life) had repented, believed, and worked
righteousness, will have hopes to be among those who achieve
salvation.
----
20.
029.002 - AL-ANKABOOT (THE SPIDER)

Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We
believe", and that they will not be tested?

---
21.
034.021 - SABA (SABA, SHEBA)

But he had no authority over them,- except that We might test the
man who believes in the Hereafter from him who is in doubt
concerning it: and thy Lord doth watch over all things.

---
22.
047.004 - MUHAMMAD (MUHAMMAD)

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at
their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them,
bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either
generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus
(are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could
certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He
lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those
who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds
be lost.

---
23.
047.031 - MUHAMMAD (MUHAMMAD)

And We shall try you until We test those among you who strive
their utmost and persevere in patience; and We shall try your
reported (mettle).

---
24.
059.004 - AL-HASHR (EXILE, BANISHMENT)

That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger: and if any
one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment.
---
25.
063.011 - AL-MUNAFIQOON (THE HYPOCRITES)

But to no soul will Allah grant respite when the time appointed
(for it) has come; and Allah is well acquainted with (all) that
ye do.

---
26.
064.010 - AT-TAGHABUN (MUTUAL DISILLUSION, HAGGLING)
But those who reject Faith and treat Our Signs as falsehoods,
they will be Companions of the Fire, to dwell therein for aye:
and evil is that Goal.

---
27.
064.016 - AT-TAGHABUN (MUTUAL DISILLUSION, HAGGLING)

So fear Allah as much as ye can; listen and obey and spend in
charity for the benefit of your own soul and those saved from the
covetousness of their own souls,- they are the ones that achieve
prosperity.


----
28.
067.002 - AL-MULK (THE SOVEREIGNTY, CONTROL)

He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is
best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-

---
29.
084.025 - AL-INSHIQAQ (THE SUNDERING, SPLITTING OPEN)

Except to those who believe and work righteous deeds: For them is
a Reward that will never fail.

---
30.
090.019 - AL-BALAD (THE CITY, THIS COUNTRYSIDE)

But those who reject Our Signs, they are the (unhappy) Companions
of the Left Hand.

---
31.
092.005 - AL-LAIL (THE NIGHT)
So he who gives (in charity) and fears (Allah),

092.006 - AL-LAIL (THE NIGHT)
And (in all sincerity) testifies to the best,-

092.007
We will indeed make smooth for him the path to Bliss.

092.008
But he who is a greedy miser and thinks himself self-sufficient,

092.009
And gives the lie to the best,-

092.010
We will indeed make smooth for him the path to Misery;

----
Plunk your magic twanger Froggy!   Boinnnnnng!  Hiya Kids!  Hiya! Hiya!



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  • Alan V
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#10

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
(03-23-2020, 01:39 PM)Link Wrote: I will post a letter of Imam Ali Al-Hadi (a) and many other hadiths pertaining to this.

Don't bother fuckface. Nobody here's gonna read it. And the only thing your Quran is useful
for is wrapping food scraps, or lining your cat's litter tray.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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  • Chas
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#11

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
(03-23-2020, 01:36 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Long ago, I went through the Quran and collected the verses that tell us we have no free will, that Allah has decided whom to lead and whom to lead astray, et al.  In a debate with Link, we have some variance of opinion about this issue.  It is in the end, about the problem of Allah, who is supposedly merciful and compassionate, as each sura starts out proclaiming, our lack of free will at Allah's pleasure and the problem of the existence of moral evil.

The source of all of this problem is in the Quran.  And then the theologians dance begins to try to make this seem not to be the problem it is.  It is a bit of a long read, but that is sometimes necessary to pound the point home when debating those who do not want to admit this is all a problem.

(03-24-2020, 07:20 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: And now for something completely different.  Verses in the Quran that support the idea we do have free will in contrast to the above list that demonstrates that the Quran claims we do not.  This list is representative and not by any means exhaustive.

When I was studying these problems myself, I resolved them by thinking of God as a non-contingent absolute.  

Compared to a relative truth, a truth that is absolute is true in all circumstances.  So if God is an absolute, he must effectively have the final say in all matters.  In other words, those who deny the truth think something is possible which isn't, i.e. going against what is true.

This is important because it establishes that God is still all-powerful even when people go against him.  It's just that from a human, time-bound perspective, we can't see how things will end badly when we go against what is true.

So this leads to the idea of non-contingency.  The existence of such a God can't be contingent on anything else.  Nothing we do or do not do can change an absolute truth.  Similarly, nothing that happens in the world can alter an absolute truth.  This means that even the world itself can be subject to chance events.

Of course, I abandoned this line of thought over fifteen years ago now.
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#12

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
Long ago, when I ran across the problem of Quranic dogma of Free Will vs Qadar, I downloaded the Quran from the Guttenberg project and read the entire thing just to see what the Quran actually said on the issue. The basic foundations for all further arguments. Plus a general familiarization with the Quran. Including the wild tall tales. Comets chasing eavesdropping djinn away from Allah's throne et al. And various contradictions in the book. A lot of Moslems swear there are no contradictions in the Quran. Of course much of the book is simple assertions. Promises of paradise and threats of hell fire for non-believers. Not much room for contradictions here.
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#13

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
(03-24-2020, 12:35 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(03-23-2020, 01:36 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Long ago, I went through the Quran and collected the verses that tell us we have no free will, that Allah has decided whom to lead and whom to lead astray, et al.  In a debate with Link, we have some variance of opinion about this issue.  It is in the end, about the problem of Allah, who is supposedly merciful and compassionate, as each sura starts out proclaiming, our lack of free will at Allah's pleasure and the problem of the existence of moral evil.

The source of all of this problem is in the Quran.  And then the theologians dance begins to try to make this seem not to be the problem it is.  It is a bit of a long read, but that is sometimes necessary to pound the point home when debating those who do not want to admit this is all a problem.

(03-24-2020, 07:20 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: And now for something completely different.  Verses in the Quran that support the idea we do have free will in contrast to the above list that demonstrates that the Quran claims we do not.  This list is representative and not by any means exhaustive.

When I was studying these problems myself, I resolved them by thinking of God as a non-contingent absolute.  

Compared to a relative truth, a truth that is absolute is true in all circumstances.  So if God is an absolute, he must effectively have the final say in all matters.  In other words, those who deny the truth think something is possible which isn't, i.e. going against what is true.

This is important because it establishes that God is still all-powerful even when people go against him.  It's just that from a human, time-bound perspective, we can't see how things will end badly when we go against what is true.

So this leads to the idea of non-contingency.  The existence of such a God can't be contingent on anything else.  Nothing we do or do not do can change an absolute truth.  Similarly, nothing that happens in the world can alter an absolute truth.  This means that even the world itself can be subject to chance events.

Of course, I abandoned this line of thought over fifteen years ago now.

This is part of it, the heart of it is that we need God's help to be good and if we turn away from him, which only happens by his permission (the part you emphasized on), we will be lead astray by misguiding forces.

Who God helps and supports, God is sufficient, and who God abandons, you will not find a helper for him.
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#14

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
There are two verses that talk about how the disbelievers of that time saw God's will.  One it says "if God wills, we wouldn't have worshipped them"- and to that it says "they have no knowledge". Another is "will we feed who if God will would've himself fed...".

It seems even that time, God's will was not seen the same way by believers and disbelievers.  The absolute view was more what disbelievers saw.
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#15

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
It's a false notion that God knows the future absolutely. It's impossible, because, future is decided in real time, at least a lot of it is.
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#16

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
Seems as if that should not be an insurmountable problem for a "god."  Of course, you invent him and define him so in that sense YOU are the creator.  Much as Jim Henson created the Muppets.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#17

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (al-lawh al-mahfooz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.
— Quran, Sura 57, ayat 22

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Either the Quran is revelation from Allah, and is thus true, or it is not a revelation from Allah, and we can just ignore it as falsehood.
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#18

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
There is a verse also says he erases and establish what he wants from the book, so the book is not set in stone. In fact, every year on the Night of Value/measurement, a plan for God and his forces is established.
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#19

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
Do you know the verse or should I quote it?
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#20

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
(03-24-2020, 03:08 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Seems as if that should not be an insurmountable problem for a "god."  Of course, you invent him and define him so in that sense YOU are the creator.  Much as Jim Henson created the Muppets.

Bro, for once there is a civilized discussion. Bring your red herrings now, and I'm not addressing them anymore.
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#21

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
Allah writes that book. Allah predestines all.
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#22

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
(03-24-2020, 03:43 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Allah writes that book.  Allah predestines all.

There is a verse though he erases what he wishes from it and establishes. This means not everything he plans in that book happens. Some of it he erases.
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#23

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
And the book is just for his King on earth and Angels to act upon. And it's written every year on laylatal qadr, but some of it is cancelled and erased, and some of it is established. God decides in real time.
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#24

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
It's same with death, it's written, but some good deeds delay it, just as bad deeds can hasten it.
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#25

Islam And Our Lack Of Free Will
The verse is 13:39.
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