Bombing of Tokyo

[Minimalist]

Yeah but we did plan to hoist our flags and sail across the Pacific to meet them.  The Myth of the Mile-Long Convoy coming to relieve the Philippines got its start somewhere.  Of course, it had about as much chance of returning as jesus did.

Without the disaster of Pearl Harbor the pressure on the Navy to intervene in the Philippines would have been enormous.  Of course, without Pearl Harbor we wouldn't have been at war so, there is that.

[Gwaithmir]

They did not expect a long war.  They foolishly assumed that their initial strike would be so successful that we would sue for peace.

They were wrong.

"We have awoken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." (NOT Marshal Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto) 

Yamamoto allegedly wrote this sentence in his diary and in a subsequent letter to the Japanese Admiralty, but neither source can be confirmed. Nevertheless, it made for an interesting ending to the film Tora! Tora! Tora!

[Minimalist]

It was in keeping with Yamamoto's general outlook that he could give the US Navy a run for its money for a year but after that he made no promises.  He had traveled across the US several times by rail.  He knew what he was up against if we ever got off our asses.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"We have awoken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." (NOT Marshal Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto) 

Yamamoto allegedly wrote this sentence in his diary and in a subsequent letter to the Japanese Admiralty, but neither source can be confirmed. Nevertheless, it made for an interesting ending to the film Tora! Tora! Tora!

The producer of TTT admitted on camera that he made it up to give something of an upbeat ending to American audiences. (It's in the "extras" on the DVD.) NO mention of this can be found in any work written before TTT came out.

[Thumpalumpacus]

That was the only scenario they had that would allow them to win. Everything they did required the US to act as predicted and lose when asked.

The fatal flaw in several of their plans is that we would behave as expected.

Americans being Americans, we politely declined, most of the time.

The IJN's wet dream, titled "The Great All Out Battle" (TGAOB) required the USN to steam out from the West Coast and run a gauntlet of submarine and destroyer (equipped with Long Lance torpedoes) attacks and be politely attrited until the Japanese had a clear material superiority, at which point, despite heavy losses, the USN would plow on into Japanese territorial waters to be massacred. The Japanese took this so seriously that they built their ships with limited fuel capacity, expecting to be able to pull into port for a quick top-up during the TGAOB. The first time any major force fueled underway was enroute to Hawaii in Dec. 1941.

Not to mention Midway, when they expected us to both be distracted in the Aleutians, and be so worried about Midway that we could fight neither battle effectively.

Wasn't it Moltke the Elder who wrote that no plan survives contact with the enemy? Whoever it was, he damned sure got it right.

I think Bull's Run was the only time one of their ruses really worked.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It was in keeping with Yamamoto's general outlook that he could give the US Navy a run for its money for a year but after that he made no promises.  He had traveled across the US several times by rail.  He knew what he was up against if we ever got off our asses.

He was assigned as asst. naval attache to the Japanese embassy in the 1920 and took English classes at Harvard. (Well, Harvard night school, off campus.) "If we have to fight American I can run wild for six months to a year. After that I promise nothing."

[Minimalist]

Yeah.  So, as noted earlier, they re-fashioned reality into something that they could control.  It's magical thinking and it really worries me about Trump.  He really thinks the world is what he imagines it to be instead of what it is.

[Thumpalumpacus]

He'd toured through some of the Rust Belt, from what I've read.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

He'd toured through some of the Rust Belt, from what I've read.

He wasn't in the US during the '30s insofar as I know.

Returning to Japan, Yamamoto embarked on a 10-year period that made him one of Japan’s foremost aviation officers. He commanded the aircraft carrier Akagi in 1928. Promoted to rear admiral in 1929, Yamamoto served as chief of the Technological Division of the Naval Air Corps, where he championed the development of fast carrier-borne fighter planes, a program that produced the famous Zero fighters. In 1934 Yamamoto commanded the First Carrier Division, and in 1935 he headed the Japanese delegation to the London Naval Conference, where Japan abandoned 15 years of uneasy naval détente among the world powers. In 1936, as a vice admiral, he became the vice minister of the navy. Yamamoto commanded the First Fleet in 1938, and he became commander in chief of the Combined Fleet in 1939. In these later capacities, Yamamoto used his growing seniority to turn the navy away from battleships, which he viewed as obsolete, in favour of tactics based on aircraft carriers—carrier tactics that he later incorporated into the plan to attack Pearl Harbor.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Yamamoto-Isoroku

[Thumpalumpacus]

He'd toured through some of the Rust Belt, from what I've read.

He wasn't in the US during the '30s insofar as I know.

I missed the part where I wrote that.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

He'd toured through some of the Rust Belt, from what I've read.

He wasn't in the US during the '30s insofar as I know.

I missed the part where I wrote that.

The Rust Belt was the stretch of steel mills between Pittsburgh and New York that were idled by the Great Depression.

[Thumpalumpacus]

He wasn't in the US during the '30s insofar as I know.

I missed the part where I wrote that.

The Rust Belt was the stretch of steel mills between Pittsburgh and New York that were idled by the Great Depression.

I'm using it in the 80s sense, not the 30s sense. You probably knew that, too. But if you want to get pedantic you can do that on your own time; I'm looking for conversation and not pedantry. You either understand my point, or you don't.

Just to ease the process for you: Yamamoto traveled through much of America's industrial heartland, and in so doing, garnered an understanding of America's capacity that caused him to doubt his own country's ability to win a prolonged war against our country. That's my point.

Now, if you have an issue with that point, cool. Maybe you can engage in conversation rather than pedantry? That'd be nice.

BTW, it's "USA," not "US". Get the point now?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm going by what I know, and on topic. 1980s terminology is not relevant.

And Yamamoto traveled by train from San Francisco to Washington, yes, but I doubt he stopped to tour steel mills.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm going by what I know, and on topic. 1980s terminology is not relevant.

If you didn't know what I was addressing, the courteous thing is to ask what I meant, rather than say I was saying something I didn't say.

Now, if courtesy doesn't befit you, I can be an asshole too.

And Yamamoto traveled by train from San Francisco to Washington, yes, but I doubt he stopped to tour steel mills.

“Classmates would have remembered Yamamoto well: a hard worker but not a grind, exceptionally curious and imaginative,” Morris writes. “When they introduced him to the game of poker, he became a fanatical poker player who would stay up all night, winning hand after hand. And what did he do with his poker winnings--lead the good life? No, not at all: he hitchhiked around the country during the summer, exploring America.”

https://harvardmagazine.com/2010/07/lessons-in-surprise

So did he tour steel mills? Probably not. Did I say he did? Certainly not -- you're sticking words in my mouth. Did he garner an understanding of American industrial power in his travels? Sure. He's written as much in his own words.

It's a shame you prefer trying to correct what is simply my colloquial usage rather than actually discuss the topic at hand. But hey, if it makes you feel important have at it. I'd rather have a good conversation, but not at the expense of slogging through your pettifoggery. Take your meds and get some rest. You're grumpy.

[Minimalist]

You don't have to tour them to count them and say "Uh-oh!"

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Whatever you're playing for, Thump, you win.

[Deesse23]

It could have been had they gotten the time to develop those resources.  They were denied such time.

The final result was a foregone conclusion.

Europe was a "fortress with no roof."

Not until late 1943 maybe.

Luftwaffe was quite potent until then. Allied losses (bomber crews) were in the 5% range iirc (per mission). Simple math will lead to the conclusion that in a short amount of time raids would have to be flown with 100% green crews. Fortunately the attrition rate for the LW was even higher and by late 1943 is was showing signs of being burned out.

Much like the U-Boot war this was looking pretty bleak for the allies up to the tipping point.

[Deesse23]

Wasn't it Moltke the Elder who wrote that no plan survives contact with the enemy? Whoever it was, he damned sure got it right.

Yes, was Moltke

[Thumpalumpacus]

Whatever you're playing for, Thump, you win.

Actually, we lost ... because I was playing for conversation, not pedantry.

Remind me to not try that with you any more.

[Cavebear]

"We have awoken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." (NOT Marshal Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto) 

Yamamoto allegedly wrote this sentence in his diary and in a subsequent letter to the Japanese Admiralty, but neither source can be confirmed. Nevertheless, it made for an interesting ending to the film Tora! Tora! Tora!

In non-democratic nations, you have to separate the military from the totalitarian leader. the Japanese military knew that the only possible path to success was "shock and awe". When the military is ordered to wage war, they do their best.

That does not in any way forgive the brutality and mistreatment by the Japanese soldiers.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Whatever you're playing for, Thump, you win.

Actually, we lost ... because I was playing for conversation, not pedantry.

Remind me to not try that with you any more.

There won't be any need.

[Filox]

Yamamoto allegedly wrote this sentence in his diary and in a subsequent letter to the Japanese Admiralty, but neither source can be confirmed. Nevertheless, it made for an interesting ending to the film Tora! Tora! Tora!

In non-democratic nations, you have to separate the military from the totalitarian leader.  the Japanese military knew that the only possible path to success was "shock and awe".  When the military is ordered to wage war, they do their best.

That does not in any way forgive the brutality and mistreatment by the Japanese soldiers.

Don't know about forgiving crimes committed by Japan in China, that is unforgivable. 

I didn't make this thread to judge the Japanese military in WW2, but to commemorate the civilian victims in a devastating air attack... People kinda missed the point.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If the Japanese constitution hadn't been modified to once again require certain cabinet-level offices to be active duty officers the country might have been spared the devastation of the war. And so would China. (At least by the Japanese.) The change meant that the Army and Navy had to approve the appointments to a new cabinet, and could transfer the officer if they chose. No cabinet could be formed without the approval of the Army and Navy, none could stand without that approval.

From that point on the people of Japan were hostages to the ambitions of the military.