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Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
#1

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06/chr...rsecution/

This is a nice list of the long list of atrocities, oppression and attacks on non-Christians by the early Christians after taking power starting in 325 CE.    The true history of Christianity and why it prevailed.

Examples:

Christian Atrocities: Three Centuries Of Pagan Persecution

356 A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.
357 Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).
359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.
361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.
363 Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).
364 Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.
365 An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids the gentile (Pagan) officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.
370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. All the friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.
....

A sad history to contemplate.  You won't hear about any of this in church.
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#2

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
#ChristianLove
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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#3

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
#GodIsLove

And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
[Image: signature%20The-Ascension-of-Iweko.jpg]
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#4

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
Frankly all that one needs to know about christianity is condensed in the flood myth. It's cult of space Hitler and that's alone means it can not be redeemed.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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#5

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
The list gives an over-simplified impression of what was going on.  It treats xtianity as some sort of monolithic structure which it was not.

First off, Constantine himself may have been an Arian xtian or he may have simply been an opportunist.  In 325 he called the Council of Nicaea but that hardly constituted xtians "taking power."  The sect had been legalized in 313 by the Edict of Milan which offset the Persecution of Diocletian which really was an imperial persecution of xhristards as opposed to the fantasies they created about earlier emperors!

But Milan did more than end the ten year old persecution of Diocletian it established the concept of religious tolerance for all religions in the empire:

Quote:We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

Nicaea was called to address the Arian/Trinitarian schism.  The result was that the Trinitarians won and Arianism was declared a heresy.  What is less known is that Constantine called a second council 10 years later at Tyre which resulted in Athanasius and the Trinitarians being kicked out on their asses and Arius being restored.  A cynic might say that in those 10 years Constantine finally felt strong enough to move against the orthodox assholes who had gone after his boy, Arius!   Big Grin 

In any event Constantius, the son, was a devout Arian.  It was reported (by xtian writers) that Constantine was only baptized on his deathbed by the Arian bishop of Nicomedia and who knows, perhaps he was.  Xtians are such liars about such things that no one can be sure nor can we be sure that Constantine was not in a coma if and when it happened.  It almost does not matter.

What does matter is the note in the list about the assassination of Emperor Julian the Apostate.  Good man that he was he wanted to reverse the actions of Constantius against pagans and restore the old religions to their proper place.  This was the one thing xtians shit their pants about.  The offer of toleration to all religions of Constantine was not their idea at all.  the pagan cults were inclusive but jesusism is exclusionary. 

Julian showed xtians that what they had been gained could be wiped away with the stroke of the pen and when they managed to kill him that is when they began a significant effort to persecute pagans and heretics.  This culminated in Theodosius' Edict of Thessalonica which not only banned pagan religions but also Arianism as it declared Nicaean jesusism to be the official state religion.

Theodosius was a real, jesus-freak, scumbag.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#6

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
Despite all of that, what ever the current emperor thought became the law. If that emperor decided to crush out paganism, the cruel laws that followed were cruel despite whatever species of Christianity the emperor believed. The very idea that it was acceptable to destroy all non-Christian religions and their believers became policy under the Christians emperors.

The various battles between sects and their believers and the latest edicts made Christians so unpopular among many the saw Islam's coming as a relief against that madness.
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#7

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-08-2020, 07:05 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06/chr...rsecution/

This is a nice list of the long list of atrocities, oppression and attacks on non-Christians by the early Christians after taking power starting in 325 CE.    The true history of Christianity and why it prevailed.

Examples:

Christian Atrocities: Three Centuries Of Pagan Persecution

356 A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.
357 Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).
359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.
361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.
363 Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).
364 Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.
365 An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids the gentile (Pagan) officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.
370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. All the friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.
....

A sad history to contemplate.  You won't hear about any of this in church.

I know precision in language is not always celebrated here, but there is a difference between "Christian atrocities" and "Christians who committed atrocities." For it to be the former, it would have to be driven by the actual ideology. Since that is not the case, it is the latter.
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#8

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
Quote:For it to be the former, it would have to be driven by the actual ideology. Since that is not the case, it is the latter.

It was only driven by ideology, Stevie.  What do you think the dispute between Arians and Trinitarians was about?  They were perfectly willing to slaughter each other in the name of whatever brand of jesus-freak stupidity they were championing.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#9

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
One Retort SII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustashe#Co...lic_Church

"On April 28, 1941, the head of the Catholic Church in Croatia, Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac, issued a public letter in support for the new Ustaše state, and asked the clergy to pray for its Leader, Ante Pavelić. This despite the fact that the Ustaše had already proclaimed a series of anti-Serb and anti-Jewish measures, and he knew they were preparing Nazi-style Racial Laws, which Pavelić signed only 2 days after. While Stepinac later objected to certain Ustaše policies, and helped some Jews and Serbs, he continued to publicly support he Ustaše state until its very end, served as the state's War Vicar, and in 1944 received a medal from Pavelić (for more on Stepinac's wartime activities, see Alojzije Stepinac – World War II) "

Oh, wait, this was only head of the catholic church in Croatia. Carry on.

"For the duration of the war, the Vatican kept up full diplomatic relations with the Ustaše state (granting Pavelić an audience), with its papal nuncio in Zagreb, the Croatian capital city. The nuncio was briefed on the efforts of religious conversions to Roman Catholicism. After World War II ended, the Ustaše who had managed to escape from Yugoslav territory (including Pavelić) were smuggled to South America. This was largely done through rat lines operated by Catholic priests who had previously secured positions at the Vatican. Some of the more infamous members of the Illyrian College of San Girolamo in Rome involved in this were Franciscan friars Krunoslav Draganović and Dominik Mandić, and a third friar surnamed Petranović (first name unknown)."

Well I'll be.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#10

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-08-2020, 04:29 PM)SteveII Wrote: I know precision in language is not always celebrated here, but there is a difference between "Christian atrocities" and "Christians who committed atrocities." For it to be the former, it would have to be driven by the actual ideology. Since that is not the case, it is the latter.

I agree with you except about one point.  When Christians use indoctrination techniques to pressure people into uncritical acceptance of their beliefs, atrocities large and small can be expected to follow, regardless of what Christian doctrines actually state.
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#11

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-08-2020, 04:06 PM)Minimalist Wrote: The list gives an over-simplified impression of what was going on.  It treats xtianity as some sort of monolithic structure which it was not.

First off, Constantine himself may have been an Arian xtian or he may have simply been an opportunist.  In 325 he called the Council of Nicaea but that hardly constituted xtians "taking power."  The sect had been legalized in 313 by the Edict of Milan which offset the Persecution of Diocletian which really was an imperial persecution of xhristards as opposed to the fantasies they created about earlier emperors!

But Milan did more than end the ten year old persecution of Diocletian it established the concept of religious tolerance for all religions in the empire:

Quote:We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

Nicaea was called to address the Arian/Trinitarian schism.  The result was that the Trinitarians won and Arianism was declared a heresy.  What is less known is that Constantine called a second council 10 years later at Tyre which resulted in Athanasius and the Trinitarians being kicked out on their asses and Arius being restored.  A cynic might say that in those 10 years Constantine finally felt strong enough to move against the orthodox assholes who had gone after his boy, Arius!   Big Grin 

In any event Constantius, the son, was a devout Arian.  It was reported (by xtian writers) that Constantine was only baptized on his deathbed by the Arian bishop of Nicomedia and who knows, perhaps he was.  Xtians are such liars about such things that no one can be sure nor can we be sure that Constantine was not in a coma if and when it happened.  It almost does not matter.

What does matter is the note in the list about the assassination of Emperor Julian the Apostate.  Good man that he was he wanted to reverse the actions of Constantius against pagans and restore the old religions to their proper place.  This was the one thing xtians shit their pants about.  The offer of toleration to all religions of Constantine was not their idea at all.  the pagan cults were inclusive but jesusism is exclusionary. 

Julian showed xtians that what they had been gained could be wiped away with the stroke of the pen and when they managed to kill him that is when they began a significant effort to persecute pagans and heretics.  This culminated in Theodosius' Edict of Thessalonica which not only banned pagan religions but also Arianism as it declared Nicaean jesusism to be the official state religion.

Theodosius was a real, jesus-freak, scumbag.

Constantine was not a nice man.  He had his wife and son murdered.  This happened after he supposedly became a Christian.  It seems he had his wife boiled to death and his son was hacked up to death.
                                                         T4618
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#12

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
Constantine was murdering thug.  No wonder the church made him a saint.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#13

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-08-2020, 07:05 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06/chr...rsecution/

This is a nice list of the long list of atrocities, oppression and attacks on non-Christians by the early Christians after taking power starting in 325 CE.    The true history of Christianity and why it prevailed.

Examples:

Christian Atrocities: Three Centuries Of Pagan Persecution

356 A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.
357 Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).
359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.
361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.
363 Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).
364 Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.
365 An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids the gentile (Pagan) officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.
370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. All the friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.
....

A sad history to contemplate.  You won't hear about any of this in church.

Not surprisingly, none of these events were ever discussed or even mentioned in any historical studies I was taught in Catholic schools.  Consider
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#14

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
https://www.harpercollins.com/9780061981418/jesus-wars/

Quote:Jesus Wars

How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years

Worth the read.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#15

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-08-2020, 05:14 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(03-08-2020, 04:29 PM)SteveII Wrote: I know precision in language is not always celebrated here, but there is a difference between "Christian atrocities" and "Christians who committed atrocities." For it to be the former, it would have to be driven by the actual ideology. Since that is not the case, it is the latter.

I agree with you except about one point.  When Christians use indoctrination techniques to pressure people into uncritical acceptance of their beliefs, atrocities large and small can be expected to follow, regardless of what Christian doctrines actually state.

There is a difference between people committing atrocities, and atrocities being mandated from government and government leaders such as these most Christian emperors.  Policy in these cases created for religious reasons.

Germany in the 30's is another sad example.
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#16

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-08-2020, 04:29 PM)SteveII Wrote: I know precision in language is not always celebrated here, but there is a difference between "Christian atrocities" and "Christians who committed atrocities." For it to be the former, it would have to be driven by the actual ideology. Since that is not the case, it is the latter.

Fair point.  So let's work through the whole list and see whether each item is simply Christians doing things incidental to their ideology (ie, things where their Christianity was not a motivating factor and they would likely have done it even if they weren't Christians), or whether it seems to be motivated by the ideology.  I'll also ask whether they seem to be promoting the ideology, because the Great Commission drives the promotion of ideology. (EDIT: And, too be clear, suppressing competing religions would count as promoting Christianity.)  Finally, I'll rank each as LIKELY, MAYBE, or LIKELY NOT motivated by Christian ideology, since I'm not a mind-reader and can't say for sure what was going on in the heads of people over a millenium ago.

Also, I'm not an expert on the period, so I'm not fully familiar with the history.  Mostly I'm doing a sniff test to see whether it makes sense to infer whether these were motivated by Christianity or not.  I'm sure better-read people than I could give much more authoritive opinions on the actual motivations at play in these cases.

Quote:314 Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the gentiles (non-Christians). The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

So are we to believe that their Christianity, and the exclusive nature of the Christian religion, had little to do with the targeting of non-Christians and worship of a different deity?  Do we believe that they would have focused those attacks on gentiles if they were themselves gentiles, and denounced a specifically non-Christian religion if they were themselves non-Christian?  It seems likely that their Christianity was a motivating factor.

LIKELY.

Quote:324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the Pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.

So are we to believe that Constantine's eviction of non-Christians, specifically, was not motivated by Christianity?  What sense does this particular discrimination make, save either a Christian persecuting non-Christians or, perhaps, a not-yet-Christian emperor persecuting non-Christians to appease a Christian constituency?  The general persecution of non-Christians could easily be motivated by Christian ideology (depending which contradictory points you ignore), as can the suppression of rival religions.  The exact motivations are not identified here, but I'd tend to assume a religious basis unless I saw evidence to the contrary.

LIKELY.

Quote:326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.
330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan temples of Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.
335 Constantine sacks many Pagan temples of Minor Asia and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers”. Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.
341 Flavius Julius Constantius persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists”. Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.
346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a “magician”.

These items are about sacking and persecuting Pagan temples, which could easily be violence for the promotion of Christianity, but could also be simple greed.  So I'll put these in the "maybe" column.  Persecution of soothsayers and magicians also fall into the "maybe" column.  So that's 5 for MAYBE.

Quote:353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and “idols”.

Huh.  If only there were some part of the Christian religion that banned idolatry, I could see this being motivated by ideology.  And if only the majority of competing religions did worship involving sacrifices, I could see this as suppression of non-Christian religion.  If only.

LIKELY.

Quote:354 A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

Why target Pagan priests and not Christian priests?  Why target Pagan temples and not Christian churches?

LIKELY.

Quote:356 A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all “idolaters”.

LIKELY, for reasons discussed already.

Quote:357 Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

The Bible has some passages which frown on soothsaying (see Lev 19:26 for one example)... but I could also see a civil purpose in restricting con artists from fleecing people.  MAYBE.

Quote:359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.

Do I really have to explain why this is LIKELY?

Quote:361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

This helps give context to the rest of the list, but doesn't IMO count as an atrocity.  Nor do I think it's presented as one.  I won't be counting it.

Quote:363 Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

This one, actually, I don't think belongs on the list.  Julianus was likely not assassinated, though rumors to that effect sprung up very quickly after his death.  I'm ranking this as not an atrocity.

Quote:364 Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.

Lots of ones here.

Burning of library:  The library of Antioch was a repository for many Pagan texts, and was therefore greatly disliked by the local Christians.  Jovianus ordered it burnt in an effort to appeal to the local citizens.  It backfired, no pun intended.  I'm ranking this as a MAYBE.

Death penalty for worshiping ancestral gods or practicing divination?  LIKELY.

Confiscations from Pagan Temples?  MAYBE.

Death penalty for Pagan rituals?  LIKELY.

Quote:365 An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids the gentile (Pagan) officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

Gee, why this specific discrimination?  Why favor Christians over Pagans?  LIKELY.

Quote:370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. All the friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

Another busy year.

Persecution of non-Christians in Eastern Empire:  LIKELY.  I'm guessing the executions mentioned right after that are part of this item.

Burnt books:  MAYBE.

Persecution of friends of Julianus and killing philosophers:  Again, Julianus, also known as Julianus the Apostate, was very unpopular with Christians for obvious reasons, so I can definitely read a religious motivation into this, either through guilt by association or their own Hellenistic beliefs.  However, close associates of a previous ruler are often inconvenient for a new ruler with a new agenda to have hanging around.  So MAYBE.


Quote:372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.
373 New prohibition of all divination methods. The term “Pagan” (pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, “peasants”) is introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.
375 The temple of god Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.
380 On 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that “all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter”. Non-christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”. In another edict Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe in the christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.
381 On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights the Christians that return back to the Pagan religion. In all the Eastern Empire the Pagan temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the temple of goddess Aphrodite is turned to a brothel and the temples of Sun and Artemis to stables.

LIKELY, in all of these cases.

Quote:382 “Hellelujah” (“Glory to Yahweh”) is imposed in the Christian mass.

... is this an atrocity?  I don't think this counts as an atrocity.


Quote:384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the temples of the Pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.
385 to 388 Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop “Saint” Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.
386 Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of the sacked Pagan temples.
388 Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle “Pro Templis” to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.
389 to 390 All non-Christian date-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and Pagan temples, and lynch the Pagans. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against non-Christian peoples, turns the temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

I'm going to rank all of these as LIKELY.  That includes the sacks of the temples.  Previous sackings I'd been ranking as maybe because they might have been done for greed, but the involvement of church officials and actively profaning them bumps it up to a likelihood of being motivated by Christianity, in my book.

So, SteveII, are there any of the ones I ranked as likely being motivated by Christianity where you think inferring likelihood is unwarranted?  Not just "we don't know for sure" or "benefit of the doubt", but where we should actually think it wasn't likely a causal factor?  Do you have any accounts or evidence about the motivations for these acts, or to suggest they didn't occur at all?
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#17

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
The list I pointed to at this blog, is just a list. It is not a history book. The sources of these occurrences are found in works often written by Christians. Going back to the original sources would probably be enlightening. There probably was greed and stupidity involved with much of this, but that combined with religious fanaticism does not excuse the religious fanaticism.
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#18

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
Indeed it was.

For the hell of it I looked up the Council of Ancyra because something didn't look right.  The date was a mere 3 years after Constantine declared religious toleration across the whole empire.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3802.htm

Here are the "Canons of the Council of Ancyra"  (Ankara, in modern terms.)  The Temple of Artemis was at Ephesus which is a couple of hundred miles from Ankara on the SW coast near modern Izmir.  Said Temple continued in operation, being rebuilt after fires and earthquakes until destroyed in the early 5th century by a mob of snot-sucking jesus freaks.

Nonetheless, I don't see anything in these so called "Canons" which refers to the Temple of Artemis.

One wonders if all of the items cited are as weak historically?
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#19

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
Don't really know. It may well be a work in progress. It may well be that there are a lot of primary sources out there that need collecting and examining for scholarly assessment. The big problem is that the primary sources might be hard to access, and may well be inaccurate to some degree. So it is wise to take all of this with a grain of salt.
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#20

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
I always take internet history with a truckload of salt.
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#21

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-08-2020, 05:14 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(03-08-2020, 04:29 PM)SteveII Wrote: I know precision in language is not always celebrated here, but there is a difference between "Christian atrocities" and "Christians who committed atrocities." For it to be the former, it would have to be driven by the actual ideology. Since that is not the case, it is the latter.

I agree with you except about one point.  When Christians use indoctrination techniques to pressure people into uncritical acceptance of their beliefs, atrocities large and small can be expected to follow, regardless of what Christian doctrines actually state.

You can remove the word 'Christian' from that sentence. It is unneeded. That goes for any ideology. How do you think Hitler got an entire country to be okay murdering 6 million Jews? Stalin? Pol Pot?

You cannot judge any ideology by its abuses.
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#22

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
(03-08-2020, 10:49 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:
(03-08-2020, 05:14 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(03-08-2020, 04:29 PM)SteveII Wrote: I know precision in language is not always celebrated here, but there is a difference between "Christian atrocities" and "Christians who committed atrocities." For it to be the former, it would have to be driven by the actual ideology. Since that is not the case, it is the latter.

I agree with you except about one point.  When Christians use indoctrination techniques to pressure people into uncritical acceptance of their beliefs, atrocities large and small can be expected to follow, regardless of what Christian doctrines actually state.

There is a difference between people committing atrocities, and atrocities being mandated from government and government leaders such as these most Christian emperors.  Policy in these cases created for religious reasons.

Germany in the 30's is another sad example.

No, there is not. Not at all. The only difference is the level of power one holds.

You cannot judge an ideology by its abuses. Modifying the word atrocities with 'Christian' is ridiculous. Would you accept Stalin's activities characterized as 'atheist atrocities' or 'marxist atrocities'? No, of course not.
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#23

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
Okay, trying to track down sources here.

A bit of googling has this list popping up all over, pretty close to word-for-word, allowing for typos and a few word choice differences in translation.  The original source in all cases is cited as Vlasis Rassias's Demolish Them!, a 1994 Greek-language publication.

.... so does anyone here read Greek?
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#24

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
Quote:Would you accept Stalin's activities characterized as 'atheist atrocities' or 'marxist atrocities'?


Marxist atrocities?  Absolutely.  Most of Stalin's killings resulted from him trying to impose collectivization.  Not atheism.

Whereas most of jesusism's atrocities are perpetrated by scumbags who are trying to impose uniformity with their particular brand of brain dysfunction.

Even a dumbass like you should be able to follow that.... although, given your own particular problem it wouldn't surprise me if you couldn't.
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#25

Three Centuries Of Christian Atrocities
The history of Christianity, especially Western Christianity is repleat with horrors. Charlemagne's massacre of the Anglo-Saxons and forced conversions for example. The imposition of feudalism in Europe with help from the papacy. The Catholic crusades again Cathars and others. The Northern crusades against pagans. Forced conversions in Scandinavia. Religious wars of the 1500's. The horrors of Spain in the Netherlands. Various inquisitions. Spain in the New World. In early America, hangings and mutilations of Quakers and Baptists. The Christian South, Jim Crow, and segregation. And on and on.
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