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The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
#1

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
Not sure if this is the right section. But this viewpoint will be from a Shiite Muslim historical perspective.
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#2

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
There's no Mythology Section.  Perhaps Spirituality, Pseudoscience and Conspiracy Theories would have been a better choice?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#3

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
Viewpoint 11Th Successor.

The Leader of the Shiites is under house arrest.  Not enough help reaches him to alleviate his situation.  Eventually he dies, and is apparently left with no children.  His brother Jaffar quickly takes on the position of leadership but Shiites reject him.

Where is the Leader?  The Shiites believe he did have a son, they call him the Mahdi and Awaited One and the Qaim as titles among titles. The general Muslims believe that he didn't have a son.  The Shiites believe he did.  But the situation is now there is no apparent leader among them.  Now, we are still waiting. 

Should Shiites have given up on their religion or is there more to this story? Why did the Imam go into hiding?
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#4

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
Viewpoint 3rd Successor.

The Leader of the Shiites is stranded.  His companions with him and his family are on the brink of facing a battle they will not win. Water is cut off from him.  No helpers to help him, no victory foreseen. Promises in letters forsaken by those who promised. 

They are slaughtered. The leader eventually as well.

What happened? This is the grandson of the Prophet. The Son of Ali. The Son of Fatima.

What happened? And Why?
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#5

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:05 PM)Link Wrote: Viewpoint 3rd Successor.

The Leader of the Shiites is stranded.  His companions with him and his family are on the brink of facing a battle they will not win. Water is cut off from him.  No helpers to help him, no victory foreseen. Promises in letters forsaken by those who promised. 

They are slaughtered. The leader eventually as well.

What happened? This is the grandson of the Prophet. The Son of Ali. The Son of Fatima.

What happened? And Why?

What started as a religion became a power struggle instead, obviously.  That's the problem with an authoritarian-style religion.

This is also the answer to your other question: You don't need to wait for some authoritarian to tell you what to think.  The world has changed too much since then.
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#6

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 04:47 PM)Link Wrote: Not sure if this is the right section. But this viewpoint will be from a Shiite Muslim historical perspective.

Who cares about the strongly biased view of a (shiite) Muslim?
cetero censeo religionem esse delendam 
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#7

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
Why is this crap being posted on an atheist site ?

Posting religious garbage here tell us that fundamentally, the poster has no respect for the normal boundaries other people expect.
It's an act of aggression.
That in itself is the most irreligious act any religionist could do, and proof the poster is 100 % self-centered.
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#8

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:15 PM)Alan V Wrote: What started as a religion became a power struggle instead, obviously.  That's the problem with an authoritarian-style religion.

It is a power struggle. But for who and what purpose?

The world is still faced with power struggles all over.
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#9

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Why is this crap being posted on an atheist site ?

Posting religious garbage here tell us that fundamentally, the poster has no respect for the normal boundaries other people expect.
It's an act of aggression.
That in itself is the most irreligious act any religionist could do, and proof the poster is 100 % self-centered.

Personally, I'm assuming the person in question is asking us to help him think through his issues with religion.
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#10

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:15 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 04:47 PM)Link Wrote: Not sure if this is the right section. But this viewpoint will be from a Shiite Muslim historical perspective.

Who cares about the strongly biased view of a (shiite) Muslim?

Because we are humans too?
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#11

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:33 PM)Link Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 05:15 PM)Alan V Wrote: What started as a religion became a power struggle instead, obviously.  That's the problem with an authoritarian-style religion.

It is a power struggle. But for who and what purpose?

The world is still faced with power struggles all over.

I watch a lot of nature documentaries with my wife.  We even saw one recently about wild hamsters living in a graveyard.  Two males fought each other for the territory because they both liked to eat the flowers placed on the graves.

The point is, naturalistic perspectives explain such power struggles between males as an evolutionary adaptation.  In nature, males fight each other almost instinctively and thoughtlessly.  Humans can behave differently, but many do not.
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#12

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:39 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 05:33 PM)Link Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 05:15 PM)Alan V Wrote: What started as a religion became a power struggle instead, obviously.  That's the problem with an authoritarian-style religion.

It is a power struggle. But for who and what purpose?

The world is still faced with power struggles all over.

I watch a lot of nature documentaries with my wife.  We even saw one recently about wild hamsters living in a graveyard.  Two males fought each other for the territory because they both liked to eat the flowers placed on the graves.

The point is, naturalistic perspectives explain such power struggles between males as an evolutionary adaptation.  In nature, males fight each other almost instinctively and thoughtlessly.  Humans can behave differently, but many do not.

Thanks for your input. I do agree the ones who took power away from the Family of Guidance, behaved like animals for territory and were blinded by caprice. I don't believe Ali and his family were guilty of this however. I will share my reasons later.
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#13

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:39 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 05:33 PM)Link Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 05:15 PM)Alan V Wrote: What started as a religion became a power struggle instead, obviously.  That's the problem with an authoritarian-style religion.

It is a power struggle. But for who and what purpose?

The world is still faced with power struggles all over.

I watch a lot of nature documentaries with my wife.  We even saw one recently about wild hamsters living in a graveyard.  Two males fought each other for the territory because they both liked to eat the flowers placed on the graves.

The point is, naturalistic perspectives explain such power struggles between males as an evolutionary adaptation.  In nature, males fight each other almost instinctively and thoughtlessly.  Humans can behave differently, but many do not.

I don't have a larger point to make except to say those are the two coolest fucking hamsters I've ever heard about.
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#14

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
Viewpoint 3rd Successor

While there was still hope, the Leader of the Shiites delivers this speech:

O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He rebuked the rabbis by saying:
“Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.” (5:63)
And God says:
“Cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary are those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved on account of their rebellion and transgression. They did not prevent each other from committing vile and corrupt acts; surely what they did was abominable” (5:78-79).
God reproached them because they saw with their own eyes the oppressors committing vile and corrupt acts, but did not stop them, out of love for the favours they received from them as well as fear of persecution and injury. However, God says:
“Fear not men, but fear Me.” (5:44)
And He says:
“The believing men and women are friends and protectors to each other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His messenger. Upon them God shall have mercy; God is Almighty, All-wise.” (9:71)
God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (al- 'amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar) before all other duties, because He knows that if it is performed and is established in the society all other duties, the easy and the difficult, will also become established.
The reason for this is that al-'amr bi al ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar means summoning people to Islam, as well as resistance against injustice, opposing and struggling against oppressors, and endeavoring to ensure that public wealth and income derived from war are distributed in accordance with the just laws of Islam, and that taxes are collected, levied and expended in due and proper form.
O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.
Have you not earned all this respect and prestige because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even though in most instances you have failed to do so?
You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God.
Nevertheless, you desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise, the company of the prophet, and security from chastisement in the hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight of His wrath descend upon you, for although it is by His might and glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who truly know god, while you yourselves enjoy respect among God's creatures on His account.
(I am also afraid for you for another reason:) you see the covenant enacted with God being violated and trampled under foot, yet you show no anxiety, when it comes to the covenants enacted with your fathers, you become greatly disturbed and anxious if they are only violated in part, but the pledges you have given to the most noble Messenger are a matter of complete indifference to you.
The blind, the dumb, and chronically ill everywhere lack protection in towns and no mercy is shown them. But you neither behave in accordance with your function and rank, nor you support or pay any regard to those who do. You purchase your safety from the oppressive ruling powers with flattery cajolery, and compromise.
All these activities have been forbidden you by God, and He has, more over, command you to forbid each other to engage in them, but you pay no attention.
The calamity that has befallen you is greater than what has befallen others, for true rank and degree of “Ulama” has been taken away from you. The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden. But your position has been usurped from you, for no other reason than that you have abandoned the truth (al-haqq), and have disagreed about the nature of the sunnah, despite the existence of clear proofs.
Had you the forbearance to endure adversities and hardships for the sake of God, then all proposed regulations (God's affairs) would be brought to you for your approval and for you to issue; authority would lie in your hands. But you allowed the oppressors to take away your functions and God's affairs (i.e. government) to fall into their hands, so that they administer them by resorting to ambiguities and make arbitrariness and the satisfaction of lust their consistent practice.
What enabled them to gain control of government was your fleeing in panic from (inevitable) death and your love of life, which shall in all certainty depart from you. As a consequence of that mentality, you have delivered the powerless masses into the clutches of the oppressors.
While some cringe like slaves under the yoke of oppressors, and others have been reduced to destitution in regard to their livelihood, the rulers run the affairs of the government in accordance with their whims, earning ignominy and disgrace for themselves with their licentiousness, following evil counselors, and showing impudence toward God.
One of their appointed spokesmen mounts the pulpit (minbar) in each city. The country is defenseless before them, and their hands grab freely whatever they want of it. The people are their slaves and are powerless to defend themselves. One of the governors is a dictator by nature, malevolent and rancorous; another represses to recognize either God or the Day of Resurrection!
It is not strange - how can one think it strange, that society is the clutches of a cunning oppressor whose tax collectors are oppressors and whose governers feel no compassion or mercy towards the believers under rule.
It is God who will judge concerning what is dispute among us and deliver a decisive verdict concerning all that occurs among us.
O God! You know that everything we did was not prompted by rivalry for political power, nor for a search for wealth and abundance; rather it was done to demonstrate to men the shining principles and values of Your religion, to reform the affairs of Your land, to protect and secure the indisputable rights of Your oppressed servants, and to act in accordance with the duties You have established and the norms, laws, and ordinances You have decreed.
So (O scholars of religion!) You are to help us reach this goal, win back our rights from those powers who have considered it acceptable to wrong you and who have attempted to put out the light kindled by your Prophet. God suffices us, upon Him do we rely, to Him do we return, and to Him shall we return.
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#15

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:42 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: I don't have a larger point to make except to say those are the two coolest fucking hamsters I've ever heard about.

The piece in question was from David Attenborough's Seven Worlds One Planet series, and the hamsters lived in a Vienna graveyard.  Unfortunately the clip I found on YouTube doesn't show the fight scene.

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#16

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
I used to crawl around naked in a graveyard and eat flowers, but noooo, somehow that's "not acceptable" and "inappropriate" and "illegal."
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#17

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:34 PM)Link Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 05:15 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 04:47 PM)Link Wrote: Not sure if this is the right section. But this viewpoint will be from a Shiite Muslim historical perspective.

Who cares about the strongly biased view of a (shiite) Muslim?

Because we are humans too?

Did i i deny/question this mundane fact?

I am not very interested in someones perspective who thinks Mo was talking to an angel, split the moon and was flying on a horse. Why would i? Why not talk about Mo from an unbiased perspective?
cetero censeo religionem esse delendam 
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#18

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:48 PM)Link Wrote: Viewpoint 3rd Successor

While there was still hope, the Leader of the Shiites delivers this speech:

O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He rebuked the rabbis by saying:
“Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.” (5:63)
And God says:
“Cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary are those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved on account of their rebellion and transgression. They did not prevent each other from committing vile and corrupt acts; surely what they did was abominable” (5:78-79).
God reproached them because they saw with their own eyes the oppressors committing vile and corrupt acts, but did not stop them, out of love for the favours they received from them as well as fear of persecution and injury. However, God says:
“Fear not men, but fear Me.” (5:44)
And He says:
“The believing men and women are friends and protectors to each other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His messenger. Upon them God shall have mercy; God is Almighty, All-wise.” (9:71)
God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (al- 'amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar) before all other duties, because He knows that if it is performed and is established in the society all other duties, the easy and the difficult, will also become established.
The reason for this is that al-'amr bi al ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar means summoning people to Islam, as well as resistance against injustice, opposing and struggling against oppressors, and endeavoring to ensure that public wealth and income derived from war are distributed in accordance with the just laws of Islam, and that taxes are collected, levied and expended in due and proper form.
O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.
Have you not earned all this respect and prestige because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even though in most instances you have failed to do so?
You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God.
Nevertheless, you desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise, the company of the prophet, and security from chastisement in the hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight of His wrath descend upon you, for although it is by His might and glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who truly know god, while you yourselves enjoy respect among God's creatures on His account.
(I am also afraid for you for another reasonSmile you see the covenant enacted with God being violated and trampled under foot, yet you show no anxiety, when it comes to the covenants enacted with your fathers, you become greatly disturbed and anxious if they are only violated in part, but the pledges you have given to the most noble Messenger are a matter of complete indifference to you.
The blind, the dumb, and chronically ill everywhere lack protection in towns and no mercy is shown them. But you neither behave in accordance with your function and rank, nor you support or pay any regard to those who do. You purchase your safety from the oppressive ruling powers with flattery cajolery, and compromise.
All these activities have been forbidden you by God, and He has, more over, command you to forbid each other to engage in them, but you pay no attention.
The calamity that has befallen you is greater than what has befallen others, for true rank and degree of “Ulama” has been taken away from you. The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden. But your position has been usurped from you, for no other reason than that you have abandoned the truth (al-haqq), and have disagreed about the nature of the sunnah, despite the existence of clear proofs.
Had you the forbearance to endure adversities and hardships for the sake of God, then all proposed regulations (God's affairs) would be brought to you for your approval and for you to issue; authority would lie in your hands. But you allowed the oppressors to take away your functions and God's affairs (i.e. government) to fall into their hands, so that they administer them by resorting to ambiguities and make arbitrariness and the satisfaction of lust their consistent practice.
What enabled them to gain control of government was your fleeing in panic from (inevitable) death and your love of life, which shall in all certainty depart from you. As a consequence of that mentality, you have delivered the powerless masses into the clutches of the oppressors.
While some cringe like slaves under the yoke of oppressors, and others have been reduced to destitution in regard to their livelihood, the rulers run the affairs of the government in accordance with their whims, earning ignominy and disgrace for themselves with their licentiousness, following evil counselors, and showing impudence toward God.
One of their appointed spokesmen mounts the pulpit (minbar) in each city. The country is defenseless before them, and their hands grab freely whatever they want of it. The people are their slaves and are powerless to defend themselves. One of the governors is a dictator by nature, malevolent and rancorous; another represses to recognize either God or the Day of Resurrection!
It is not strange - how can one think it strange, that society is the clutches of a cunning oppressor whose tax collectors are oppressors and whose governers feel no compassion or mercy towards the believers under rule.
It is God who will judge concerning what is dispute among us and deliver a decisive verdict concerning all that occurs among us.
O God! You know that everything we did was not prompted by rivalry for political power, nor for a search for wealth and abundance; rather it was done to demonstrate to men the shining principles and values of Your religion, to reform the affairs of Your land, to protect and secure the indisputable rights of Your oppressed servants, and to act in accordance with the duties You have established and the norms, laws, and ordinances You have decreed.
So (O scholars of religion!) You are to help us reach this goal, win back our rights from those powers who have considered it acceptable to wrong you and who have attempted to put out the light kindled by your Prophet. God suffices us, upon Him do we rely, to Him do we return, and to Him shall we return.

What did you expect ? Islam has always been a religion of "control" and opression. The reason they invented it was to unify the disparate empire, just like Constantine, just like the Persians and the Hebrews, just like the Greeks. It's an old strategy. You just happened to be an unfortunate unwitting bystander who got sucked into the game.
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#19

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 06:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Islam has always been a religion of "control" and opression.

What you said is important, it was a religion of control right from the start. Oppression? I disagree.

It's about restoring control and authority to God.  But I understand from an Atheistic perspective, it's just control and oppression.
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#20

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
The internal debates of all religions are none of my concern. I would rather do something productive with my life.
Trump is so convinced that everything is about him he has convinced his followers that everything is about him.
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#21

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 06:54 PM)Link Wrote:
(03-01-2020, 06:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Islam has always been a religion of "control" and opression.

What you said is important, it was a religion of control right from the start. Oppression? I disagree.

It's about restoring control and authority to God.  But I understand from an Atheistic perspective, it's just control and oppression.

Islam is an Arabic word meaning "submission". 
It's still about control.
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#22

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
Is it just me or does the title of this thread sound like the next Harry Potter novel?
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#23

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
I think that MK really believes he can convince a bunch of atheists that an "angel" came down and whispered in the ear of a carpet merchant sleeping in a cave and the result was the koran.  I mean really.

I'm more likely to believe in an honest republicunt that that!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#24

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 05:05 PM)Link Wrote: Viewpoint 3rd Successor.

The Leader of the Shiites is stranded.  His companions with him and his family are on the brink of facing a battle they will not win. Water is cut off from him.  No helpers to help him, no victory foreseen. Promises in letters forsaken by those who promised. 

They are slaughtered. The leader eventually as well.

What happened? This is the grandson of the Prophet. The Son of Ali. The Son of Fatima.

What happened? And Why?

NO ONE HERE GIVES A SHIT WHAT HAPPENED. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
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#25

The Lives of the Prophet and Fatima and the Twelve Successors.
(03-01-2020, 04:47 PM)Link Wrote: Not sure if this is the right section. But this viewpoint will be from a Shiite Muslim historical perspective.

Right section? This isn't even the right forum.
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
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