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why your prayers often, if not always fail

why your prayers often, if not always fail
(10 hours ago)Drich Wrote: he did.. he left it with you and people like you. he gave you an over abundance with the charge to share. So this is not a God not providing issue. If the world was starving this would be a God not providing issue. he gave the wealthy a surplus and the means and logistical knowhow to provide for everyone else.

and hell to pay if you dont. Winking

Yet these rich people of whom you speak believe in the same god in which you believe.

Go figure.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-14-2020, 08:18 PM)Astreja Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 07:11 PM)Drich Wrote: I have workers who work harder than i do yet they will never exceed what the company make for me as a whole.

I do hope you pay them a good wage to reward them for that hard work.

they are paid based on what they earn. plus bonuses.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-14-2020, 10:38 PM)brunumb Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 04:45 PM)Drich Wrote: the purpose of prayer is to ask God to change you in such a way as to be a host for the holy Spirit.

It's all just part of the indoctrination process.

by whom? the holy Spirit?

how many time must I say this is between you and God. no preist=no out side influence or indoctrination.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(10 hours ago)Drich Wrote: by whom? the holy Spirit?

how many time must I say this is between you and God. no preist=no out side influence or indoctrination.

Ironically, what should be between you and god should not also be between you and an entire church congregation.

Just saying, if personal evidence is going to be something to which you cling, then don't bring the community into it.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
Quote:What did he cry out on the cross before he died? "it is finished."


That's one version of the story, dumbass.  You see, your fucking gospels can't even agree on that most basic of shit.

Grow up, Dripshit.  You act like an infant.  I keep waiting for your impassioned defense of the Easter Bunny.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-14-2020, 11:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 10:38 PM)brunumb Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 04:45 PM)Drich Wrote: the purpose of prayer is to ask God to change you in such a way as to be a host for the holy Spirit.

It's all just part of the indoctrination process.

Drich thinks he knows better than Jesus. Drich thinks he is the messiah. 
Matthew 7:7-11
"Askit will be given to youseekand you will findknockand it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receivesand the one who seeks findsand to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of youif his son asks him for breadwill give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fishwill give him a serpent? 11 If you thenwho are evilknow how to give good gifts to your childrenhow much more will your Father who is in heaven give 
good things to those who ask him!

Nothing about anything to change anything. 

luke 11 is the extension/correlating verses, you have to consolidate all all of it to get a proper understanding. you can not just pick one and ignore the others.

Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[e] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

where are the changes to be made? in the preceeding verses when Jesus teachs us how and what to pray for.

One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

He said to them, “When you pray, say:
“‘Father,[a]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.[b]
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
    for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation.[d]’”


because which among you will in your course of prayer ask for the end of this world and all of revelation to take place?
This is what Your kingdom come means. To be able to earnestly ask for God's kingdom to come in a wicked heart, means for change.
For example under God's rule we are to love him with all of our being and each other as our selves. So who here would like to be torn limb from limb by a enormous vacuum pump? If this is not a fate for us to have put upon us right away without a voice or say in the matter then we can no longer have abortions. 

Do you see now a discrepancy between your world and God's world? 

If we pray for his world his Kingdom to come we are praying for the end of our rules our kingdom.

(guess who has to go back to their original bathroom if this happens..)

If you can't pray for this... then we are to pray for the instruments that will change us. "Help me God to want your kingdom to come."

Then again forgive us our sin only if we forgive the sins of others. which among us has the stones to pray for that unless we have been reconditioned to forgive everyone in good faith. Who naturally puts their salvation on the line to only be forgiven if and only if we can forgive everyone else?

And who among us do not seek out temptation as a matter of course? again this indicates another change we are asked to pray for.
again if you seek temptation and can not stop ask for help.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-15-2020, 03:35 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 03:15 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 02:08 AM)Paleophyte Wrote: Is Drich done arguing that god's the sort of asshole that let's children die of cancer because somebody didn't ask him to cure them in exactly the right way?

nope

I really don't think that you get it. In your attempt to explain why god never seems to answer prayers you've managed to make him look like a complete bastard. The sort that can 'look into this universe like a 20 gallon Walmart aquarium' but won't do shit about little Timmy's cancer unless you grovel and plead in precisely the right way. It's the same mistake you made with 'Why bad things happen to good people'.

In trying to excuse your god's absence you have succeeded only in making him unworthy of worship.
that was a predetermined solution you are trying to force on to what I said..

Do demonstrate please explain to us, my reason God does not answer prayer. you have no clue, therefore your above answer was a diatribe you had formulated and believe coming into the discussion and is not apart of any reasoning provided here. your inability to even summarize my answer is proof of this...

Ad hom straw man in 3... 2... 1....
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
Drich/ Wrote:luke 11 is the extension/correlating verses, you have to consolidate all all of it to get a proper understanding. you can not just pick one and ignore the others.

According to whom ? You ? LMAO.
You certainly are an expert on nothing.

Quote:
He said to them, “When you pray, say:
“‘Father,[a]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.[b]
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
    for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation.[d]’”

They are NOT asking to be changed.
Fail again.

Quote:Do you see now a discrepancy between your world and God's world? 

This is a site for non-believers. Prove your gods exist, or STFU. Stop your fool preaching. Do not mention your god(s) again until you have proven it exists AND demonstrated the authority of your scripture, AND given us your credentials to be saying ANYTHING at all about anything. 
Take your time.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-15-2020, 04:44 AM)Reltzik Wrote: Responding to the original request for feedback on the video here.  Might respond to the rest of the thread after I get caught up on it.


Production value:

The sound quality gets a lot worse around 4:07.  A lot quieter and a lot less clear.  Prior that that it was actually pretty good.
case on cell phone verse case off cell phone/cell phone in a dixie cup used as a pic up/amp

Quote:The video would also benefit from some light background music.  This will cover for the things like audio echo, shifting in your seat, microphone hiss, et cetera, that you always get from anything other than a perfect sound booth in a recording studio.
good suggestion will look into it.

Quote:The images are loosely connected to what you are saying, thematically, but don't really add much to the experience of watching and the result isn't much better than a simple audio recording would have been.  I get the feeling that the audio is the real point, and you just stuck the images in to give our eyes something to keep them busy. 
some people have complained as to not having a focal point on previous videos.

Quote:The way you reused images underscored that.  If so, we're better off with just a PowerPoint bullet list of what you're saying, since that will help us keep better track of the ideas at play.
that would probably be ideal

Quote:Your pacing could also use a bit of work.  It's not bad, but it could use work.  Insert a bit of breathing space after key ideas to add emphasis and give your audience a chance to process and digest what you've just said.
Ive out lined and model a few very popular subject based youtubers style and trying to keep my content with in the 5 to 8 min range less than 10 for big subjects.

Quote:Content:

Fundamentally, all of this is just assertion and interpretation.  Most of what you're saying has little to it that is falsifiable or verifiable.  
that's because this is a theological argument... if you don't know what that means it means it is not held to the same standard a scientific argument is held to. for one there is no need for falsifiability. Falsifiability is only needed in the support structure of a theory. This is not a theory. it is like trying to falsify the data on a street map. it can take you where you want to go or if you can't read a map you will get lost.

This is a fact and I provide all fact concerning Christ and prayer.
1) he was asked twice; "as followers how do we pray?" this is recorded in mat7 luke11. each outline is the same, no other prayers or outlines for formal prayer are offered. Again this is an undeniable fact. .

2) there are other examples of prayer in the church that do not follow this pattern these are identified as petitions or supplicatory prayer.
There is a greek word for this and I provide it along with the greek word for the formal prayer which shows a separation of meaning in these two prayers. 

Since christ only identifies one form of prayer and then says ask in prayer anything in my name (and even goes on to tell you what to ask for in the luke 11 version) we can discern this is the singular purpose of formal prayer. As no other prayers were ever offered by christ himself nor examples given when asked.

Again no falsification needed as this is not a theory but a review of the documented review of 'prayer.'

Again supplicatory prayer is little more than a wishing ceremony. it is used through out the nt. it is identified separately. this form of prayer is all that is remember by most. it has a different greek word provided in the video. this includes everything from the want of money a new mate a new job a house children anything you might want god to give you.

The point of the video was to draw a line between supplication and prayer. 

To answer the question the reason most prayers are not answer because people have forgotten what prayer is. They assume prayer is a wishing ceremony and it is not. it is you humbling yourself before God and learning to ask what he wants for you not the other way round.

Quote:It might serve as a handy post-hoc rationalization for someone trying to figure out how to reconcile unanswered prayer with their faith, but it doesn't actually demonstrate or even defend any aspect of the faith.
why should it? Faith and prayer are two seperate things. prayer does not even require faith. unless you are making wishes which again is the reason for the video. To show you making wishes and prayer are not the same thing.

Quote: Someone who doesn't believe won't be led to belief by this video, someone who does believe and already shares your interpretation doesn't need this video.
So? those are two monumental positions of belief. One who is full on anti God, and the other full on pro God.. do you not see a huge divide between these two absolute positions of belief? There are alot of people sitting between these two positions. This separation with this 8 minute understanding over time and in addition with the other videos I plan to make/have made will slowly bridge a gap. 

Nothing could be said in 8 minutes that could save anyone truly. not from me anyway. but over time and giving a common sense answer pair with others could span that gap and maybe keep one or two or maybe a few more from falling through the cracks.

Quote:  The most it will do is help someone with a different interpretation of prayer move the goalposts, rather than defend where they originally had the goalposts set, and in my experience that's not something most believers need help with.  I have to wonder what your goal is here.
I can tell you it has also help one other person who wondered why her personal prayers never got answered in the way she wanted them. which was causing a crisis of faith, and could have lead her to walk away from the church all together. 

I am one who would leave 9 coins and search all over for one that was missing.

Quote:But there was one thing that I noticed there that was potentially falsifiable or verifiable: the idea that praying to God/Jesus/Spirit to be changed, rather than for wishes, would always yield results.
Remember prayer is God changing your mind, Supplication is you asking God to change his/give you something.

Quote: This might be testable.  Will prayer heal an addict of addiction, and do so with such reliability as to stand out above other practices (such as a secular drug treatment program) employed by people seeking an escape from that addiction?
dependance or freedom from it is a supplicatory prayer. As God can still use you as an addict. That said my wife had a 10 year heroin addiction, went through several big programs, and it finally beaten through prayer. She said she could tell the moment it happened that the addiction had been turned off. and then she knew she was going to make it out ok. 

Quote: This falls under the category of asking God to change you, right?  That's the category you said would get results, right?  Yet secular programs seem to do about as good a job, or better.
this is a matter personal change, but the idea is to change in such a way as to receive the Holy Spirit. again people can do God's work as a slave to addiction to one degree or another. Ideally we all want to be free, but this body is first and always will be a slave to sin.

Paul asked several times for God to take a personal affliction from him, and God answered him no. He said 'your thorn in the flesh was there to help keep him humble.

So it depends of us. If God frees us from this affliction will it cause seperation of us from God? will being free from your chains cause you to seek out other chains/ Chain greater than you can bear? Why would he free you from a minor demon one you can function with, to have you be consumed by a larger demon completely?

That said, again he did free my wife. Such is the mystery of supplication

Quote:Well, okay, maybe addiction is part of God's plan for you, or maybe it's something God doesn't care about.  How about something that God unambiguously doesn't like: blasphemy and taking his name in vain.  The Bible's pretty clear that God regards this as a no-no.  So let's imagine someone with a case of severe coprolalia (involuntary utterances, most popularly associated with Tourette's Syndrome).  This person shouts things like "Goddammit!" and "Jesus Fucking Christ!" at frequent intervals, and is not capable of stopping on their own.  So, they pray.  They pray for the Spirit to transform them into someone who won't do this thing God hates, or to give them the strength to fight the urge, or to take away the demon that's possessing them, or whatever.
let's hope it is not confined to tourettes.. Or I'm in serious trouble.

Christ says several times there is forgiveness for taking his name and his father name in vain.

In romans 7 Paul talks to our nature being mind body and soul/spirit.

Say Satan is a share cropper/plantation owner who who breeds slaves so his buddy demons can consume/plague them.
God owns the land signed a lease with us but we got drunk and lost our lease to satan So his plantation now and everything he grown or is born on it belongs to him.

God says i want rights to harvest first everyone/slave who want to be free, and offered his son as payment for everyone who would ever want to be free from satan and go be with God.

The deal was struck, God can have the souls and spirits if they/we decide to go. But the body mind in this life will always belong to satan.

God through paul in romans tells us our bodys are slaves to sin and always will be. even he the apostle paul who basically wrote 2/3 of the NT and father of the gentile/non jewish church has a physical body who still struggles with sin everyday! He says is soul spirit can identify said sin and hates said sin but his body is still a slave to this sin and even though he knows better he can not control the body his soul/spirit is trapped in. this body commits the sins he hates while ignores the good he knows he should be doing.. he lements and identifies a principle that if we hate this sin that we do it is not us/soul spirit who sin, but the evil this body is owned by.

So when we die the evil of this body dies and when this soul/spirit is called back into an uncorrupted body, we will be able to live without the sin we hate.

the whole book of romans talks about this but specifically in chapters 6, 7 and 8

the heart of the matter found in 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

So you person with torrets can simply be trapped in a mind/body consumed by sin.

the short answer is Christ will know and judge correctly.


Quote:If you are correct in your video when you say that this type of prayer works, this should produce a testable, reliable treatment, of significantly higher efficacy than a placebo (such as making a very sincere promise to their parents, who might not be in the room with them, never to do it again) for a documented condition that can be shown under laboratory conditions.
  This would count as... well, not total verification, since it doesn't confirm why it works, but the beginnings of verification.  And if it doesn't produce those results, it would count as falsification of what you're saying.
Again not with in the parameters of a theological discussion. you like one of the fat ugly step sisters trying to shoe horn her size 12 fat hoof into one of cinderella's size 6 glass slippers. Words like efficacy and falsifiability have no place here as they rely on chance and the ability to quantify the unknown/knowable. God is not unknowable. we do not need to  try and cram our understanding into a revelation. If you want to experience the revelation, then follow God's instructions. Otherwise know there is no formula God will abide by outside of his own will. which we can know as he has expressed it.

Efficacy is trial an error based on the assumption that a specific formula will yield a desirable answer. To look for efficacy here is to look to eliminate God's personal discretion, which is at the heart of his expressed will.  You are looking for an equation that produces a summary result you can then attribute to God or a equation for god. Know the limits of your discipline (science) as one form of intellect does not rule them all. 

If we are to have a discussion about he God of the bible, then the discipline or ring you must wear is that of theology. trying to force science into a theological matter is as foolish if not more so than making a scientific discussion one of theology. Why is it worse? because as an 'educated enlightened science' type you ought to know better.


Quote:And if I'm misunderstanding the sort of prayer you're identifying as working, then you need to rework your video, because the line you're trying to draw isn't clear at all.
here is the reason i used those pics as sort of a book chapter and verse.

so around one min (snoopy snow cone machine till about 3:30 fat bat man trying to decide cake or pie ) I make a very clear distinction between prayer and supplication. I show where the two are used and even provided the greek and defination of the greek showing prayer as in the formal out line in luke 11/defined prayer, and the other form of supplication made in other places in the bible. where people were asking god for things.

the type of prayer and the changes that needed to be made are those to help us obtain the holy Spirit. Prayer's only function is to grow us and God in hopes that we can receive God directly. once we have the holy Spirit the game changes as the holy Spirit is god. you want proof of God what better proof than full access to God?

everything becomes tertiary to this.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
You think Mork was actually an alien from Ork, don't you?
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(10 hours ago)Drich Wrote:
(02-15-2020, 03:35 AM)Paleophyte Wrote: I really don't think that you get it. In your attempt to explain why god never seems to answer prayers you've managed to make him look like a complete bastard. The sort that can 'look into this universe like a 20 gallon Walmart aquarium' but won't do shit about little Timmy's cancer unless you grovel and plead in precisely the right way. It's the same mistake you made with 'Why bad things happen to good people'.

In trying to excuse your god's absence you have succeeded only in making him unworthy of worship.
that was a predetermined solution you are trying to force on to what I said..

Do demonstrate please explain to us, my reason God does not answer prayer.

Immaterial. Any deity that can't respond to a simple request and has to be prayed to in a specific manner either lacks omniscience or is a petulant whiner unworthy of a Like on Facebook, much less worship.

Quote:you have no clue, therefore your above answer was a diatribe you had formulated and believe coming into the discussion and is not apart of any reasoning provided here. your inability to even summarize my answer is proof of this...

No, it's simply proof that I haven't subscribed to your Youtube channel. Congrats.

Quote:Ad hom straw man in 3... 2... 1....

Accusing me of fallacies before I've had the chance to even present an argument is a classic example of Poisoning the Well. Nicely done.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
Prayer: Every religion has it and every religion laughs at the prayers of all the others. Funny how they never get the joke.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(5 hours ago)Drich Wrote: This is a fact and I provide all fact concerning Christ and prayer.

LOL. So you claim ... with no evidence. Wrong again dufus. 
You provide your uneducated opinions on things you have no education in. 
You assert things and have no evidence for them. 

Your arguments are not "theological". You never studied theology. 
You opinions are OUTSIDE the mainstream of Christianity. 
The barriers to entry for internet religious nut cases (such as you) are very very low. 
Anyone can claim to know about Jesus and have "facts" about Jesus ... and they do.  
You have no corner on your Jebus market. You nut cases are a dime a dozen ... all over the internet. 

You are stupid enough to try to pawn your garbage on am atheist site. Try taking a marketing class. 
You market/target audience is not atheists.
No one here buys the shit you post. You're talking to the wall.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(11 hours ago)Drich Wrote: Jesus said not one jot of the law would change till it was finished. What did he cry out on the cross before he died? "it is finished."

Shake   "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."
No gods necessary
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(1 hour ago)brunumb Wrote:
(11 hours ago)Drich Wrote: Jesus said not one jot of the law would change till it was finished. What did he cry out on the cross before he died? "it is finished."

Shake   "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."

I pointed this out a few pages back ... he will ignore what he finds inconvenient.
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