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why your prayers often, if not always fail

why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 03:12 PM)Drich Wrote: he did.. he left it with you and people like you. he gave you an over abundance with the charge to share. So this is not a God not providing issue. If the world was starving this would be a God not providing issue. he gave the wealthy a surplus and the means and logistical knowhow to provide for everyone else.

and hell to pay if you dont. Winking

Yet these rich people of whom you speak believe in the same god in which you believe.

Go figure.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-14-2020, 08:18 PM)Astreja Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 07:11 PM)Drich Wrote: I have workers who work harder than i do yet they will never exceed what the company make for me as a whole.

I do hope you pay them a good wage to reward them for that hard work.

they are paid based on what they earn. plus bonuses.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-14-2020, 10:38 PM)brunumb Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 04:45 PM)Drich Wrote: the purpose of prayer is to ask God to change you in such a way as to be a host for the holy Spirit.

It's all just part of the indoctrination process.

by whom? the holy Spirit?

how many time must I say this is between you and God. no preist=no out side influence or indoctrination.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 03:24 PM)Drich Wrote: by whom? the holy Spirit?

how many time must I say this is between you and God. no preist=no out side influence or indoctrination.

Ironically, what should be between you and god should not also be between you and an entire church congregation.

Just saying, if personal evidence is going to be something to which you cling, then don't bring the community into it.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
Quote:What did he cry out on the cross before he died? "it is finished."


That's one version of the story, dumbass.  You see, your fucking gospels can't even agree on that most basic of shit.

Grow up, Dripshit.  You act like an infant.  I keep waiting for your impassioned defense of the Easter Bunny.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-14-2020, 11:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 10:38 PM)brunumb Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 04:45 PM)Drich Wrote: the purpose of prayer is to ask God to change you in such a way as to be a host for the holy Spirit.

It's all just part of the indoctrination process.

Drich thinks he knows better than Jesus. Drich thinks he is the messiah. 
Matthew 7:7-11
"Askit will be given to youseekand you will findknockand it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receivesand the one who seeks findsand to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of youif his son asks him for breadwill give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fishwill give him a serpent? 11 If you thenwho are evilknow how to give good gifts to your childrenhow much more will your Father who is in heaven give 
good things to those who ask him!

Nothing about anything to change anything. 

luke 11 is the extension/correlating verses, you have to consolidate all all of it to get a proper understanding. you can not just pick one and ignore the others.

Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[e] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

where are the changes to be made? in the preceeding verses when Jesus teachs us how and what to pray for.

One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

He said to them, “When you pray, say:
“‘Father,[a]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.[b]
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
    for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation.[d]’”


because which among you will in your course of prayer ask for the end of this world and all of revelation to take place?
This is what Your kingdom come means. To be able to earnestly ask for God's kingdom to come in a wicked heart, means for change.
For example under God's rule we are to love him with all of our being and each other as our selves. So who here would like to be torn limb from limb by a enormous vacuum pump? If this is not a fate for us to have put upon us right away without a voice or say in the matter then we can no longer have abortions. 

Do you see now a discrepancy between your world and God's world? 

If we pray for his world his Kingdom to come we are praying for the end of our rules our kingdom.

(guess who has to go back to their original bathroom if this happens..)

If you can't pray for this... then we are to pray for the instruments that will change us. "Help me God to want your kingdom to come."

Then again forgive us our sin only if we forgive the sins of others. which among us has the stones to pray for that unless we have been reconditioned to forgive everyone in good faith. Who naturally puts their salvation on the line to only be forgiven if and only if we can forgive everyone else?

And who among us do not seek out temptation as a matter of course? again this indicates another change we are asked to pray for.
again if you seek temptation and can not stop ask for help.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-15-2020, 03:35 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 03:15 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 02:08 AM)Paleophyte Wrote: Is Drich done arguing that god's the sort of asshole that let's children die of cancer because somebody didn't ask him to cure them in exactly the right way?

nope

I really don't think that you get it. In your attempt to explain why god never seems to answer prayers you've managed to make him look like a complete bastard. The sort that can 'look into this universe like a 20 gallon Walmart aquarium' but won't do shit about little Timmy's cancer unless you grovel and plead in precisely the right way. It's the same mistake you made with 'Why bad things happen to good people'.

In trying to excuse your god's absence you have succeeded only in making him unworthy of worship.
that was a predetermined solution you are trying to force on to what I said..

Do demonstrate please explain to us, my reason God does not answer prayer. you have no clue, therefore your above answer was a diatribe you had formulated and believe coming into the discussion and is not apart of any reasoning provided here. your inability to even summarize my answer is proof of this...

Ad hom straw man in 3... 2... 1....
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
Drich/ Wrote:luke 11 is the extension/correlating verses, you have to consolidate all all of it to get a proper understanding. you can not just pick one and ignore the others.

According to whom ? You ? LMAO.
You certainly are an expert on nothing.

Quote:
He said to them, “When you pray, say:
“‘Father,[a]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.[b]
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
    for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation.[d]’”

They are NOT asking to be changed.
Fail again.

Quote:Do you see now a discrepancy between your world and God's world? 

This is a site for non-believers. Prove your gods exist, or STFU. Stop your fool preaching. Do not mention your god(s) again until you have proven it exists AND demonstrated the authority of your scripture, AND given us your credentials to be saying ANYTHING at all about anything. 
Take your time.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-15-2020, 04:44 AM)Reltzik Wrote: Responding to the original request for feedback on the video here.  Might respond to the rest of the thread after I get caught up on it.


Production value:

The sound quality gets a lot worse around 4:07.  A lot quieter and a lot less clear.  Prior that that it was actually pretty good.
case on cell phone verse case off cell phone/cell phone in a dixie cup used as a pic up/amp

Quote:The video would also benefit from some light background music.  This will cover for the things like audio echo, shifting in your seat, microphone hiss, et cetera, that you always get from anything other than a perfect sound booth in a recording studio.
good suggestion will look into it.

Quote:The images are loosely connected to what you are saying, thematically, but don't really add much to the experience of watching and the result isn't much better than a simple audio recording would have been.  I get the feeling that the audio is the real point, and you just stuck the images in to give our eyes something to keep them busy. 
some people have complained as to not having a focal point on previous videos.

Quote:The way you reused images underscored that.  If so, we're better off with just a PowerPoint bullet list of what you're saying, since that will help us keep better track of the ideas at play.
that would probably be ideal

Quote:Your pacing could also use a bit of work.  It's not bad, but it could use work.  Insert a bit of breathing space after key ideas to add emphasis and give your audience a chance to process and digest what you've just said.
Ive out lined and model a few very popular subject based youtubers style and trying to keep my content with in the 5 to 8 min range less than 10 for big subjects.

Quote:Content:

Fundamentally, all of this is just assertion and interpretation.  Most of what you're saying has little to it that is falsifiable or verifiable.  
that's because this is a theological argument... if you don't know what that means it means it is not held to the same standard a scientific argument is held to. for one there is no need for falsifiability. Falsifiability is only needed in the support structure of a theory. This is not a theory. it is like trying to falsify the data on a street map. it can take you where you want to go or if you can't read a map you will get lost.

This is a fact and I provide all fact concerning Christ and prayer.
1) he was asked twice; "as followers how do we pray?" this is recorded in mat7 luke11. each outline is the same, no other prayers or outlines for formal prayer are offered. Again this is an undeniable fact. .

2) there are other examples of prayer in the church that do not follow this pattern these are identified as petitions or supplicatory prayer.
There is a greek word for this and I provide it along with the greek word for the formal prayer which shows a separation of meaning in these two prayers. 

Since christ only identifies one form of prayer and then says ask in prayer anything in my name (and even goes on to tell you what to ask for in the luke 11 version) we can discern this is the singular purpose of formal prayer. As no other prayers were ever offered by christ himself nor examples given when asked.

Again no falsification needed as this is not a theory but a review of the documented review of 'prayer.'

Again supplicatory prayer is little more than a wishing ceremony. it is used through out the nt. it is identified separately. this form of prayer is all that is remember by most. it has a different greek word provided in the video. this includes everything from the want of money a new mate a new job a house children anything you might want god to give you.

The point of the video was to draw a line between supplication and prayer. 

To answer the question the reason most prayers are not answer because people have forgotten what prayer is. They assume prayer is a wishing ceremony and it is not. it is you humbling yourself before God and learning to ask what he wants for you not the other way round.

Quote:It might serve as a handy post-hoc rationalization for someone trying to figure out how to reconcile unanswered prayer with their faith, but it doesn't actually demonstrate or even defend any aspect of the faith.
why should it? Faith and prayer are two seperate things. prayer does not even require faith. unless you are making wishes which again is the reason for the video. To show you making wishes and prayer are not the same thing.

Quote: Someone who doesn't believe won't be led to belief by this video, someone who does believe and already shares your interpretation doesn't need this video.
So? those are two monumental positions of belief. One who is full on anti God, and the other full on pro God.. do you not see a huge divide between these two absolute positions of belief? There are alot of people sitting between these two positions. This separation with this 8 minute understanding over time and in addition with the other videos I plan to make/have made will slowly bridge a gap. 

Nothing could be said in 8 minutes that could save anyone truly. not from me anyway. but over time and giving a common sense answer pair with others could span that gap and maybe keep one or two or maybe a few more from falling through the cracks.

Quote:  The most it will do is help someone with a different interpretation of prayer move the goalposts, rather than defend where they originally had the goalposts set, and in my experience that's not something most believers need help with.  I have to wonder what your goal is here.
I can tell you it has also help one other person who wondered why her personal prayers never got answered in the way she wanted them. which was causing a crisis of faith, and could have lead her to walk away from the church all together. 

I am one who would leave 9 coins and search all over for one that was missing.

Quote:But there was one thing that I noticed there that was potentially falsifiable or verifiable: the idea that praying to God/Jesus/Spirit to be changed, rather than for wishes, would always yield results.
Remember prayer is God changing your mind, Supplication is you asking God to change his/give you something.

Quote: This might be testable.  Will prayer heal an addict of addiction, and do so with such reliability as to stand out above other practices (such as a secular drug treatment program) employed by people seeking an escape from that addiction?
dependance or freedom from it is a supplicatory prayer. As God can still use you as an addict. That said my wife had a 10 year heroin addiction, went through several big programs, and it finally beaten through prayer. She said she could tell the moment it happened that the addiction had been turned off. and then she knew she was going to make it out ok. 

Quote: This falls under the category of asking God to change you, right?  That's the category you said would get results, right?  Yet secular programs seem to do about as good a job, or better.
this is a matter personal change, but the idea is to change in such a way as to receive the Holy Spirit. again people can do God's work as a slave to addiction to one degree or another. Ideally we all want to be free, but this body is first and always will be a slave to sin.

Paul asked several times for God to take a personal affliction from him, and God answered him no. He said 'your thorn in the flesh was there to help keep him humble.

So it depends of us. If God frees us from this affliction will it cause seperation of us from God? will being free from your chains cause you to seek out other chains/ Chain greater than you can bear? Why would he free you from a minor demon one you can function with, to have you be consumed by a larger demon completely?

That said, again he did free my wife. Such is the mystery of supplication

Quote:Well, okay, maybe addiction is part of God's plan for you, or maybe it's something God doesn't care about.  How about something that God unambiguously doesn't like: blasphemy and taking his name in vain.  The Bible's pretty clear that God regards this as a no-no.  So let's imagine someone with a case of severe coprolalia (involuntary utterances, most popularly associated with Tourette's Syndrome).  This person shouts things like "Goddammit!" and "Jesus Fucking Christ!" at frequent intervals, and is not capable of stopping on their own.  So, they pray.  They pray for the Spirit to transform them into someone who won't do this thing God hates, or to give them the strength to fight the urge, or to take away the demon that's possessing them, or whatever.
let's hope it is not confined to tourettes.. Or I'm in serious trouble.

Christ says several times there is forgiveness for taking his name and his father name in vain.

In romans 7 Paul talks to our nature being mind body and soul/spirit.

Say Satan is a share cropper/plantation owner who who breeds slaves so his buddy demons can consume/plague them.
God owns the land signed a lease with us but we got drunk and lost our lease to satan So his plantation now and everything he grown or is born on it belongs to him.

God says i want rights to harvest first everyone/slave who want to be free, and offered his son as payment for everyone who would ever want to be free from satan and go be with God.

The deal was struck, God can have the souls and spirits if they/we decide to go. But the body mind in this life will always belong to satan.

God through paul in romans tells us our bodys are slaves to sin and always will be. even he the apostle paul who basically wrote 2/3 of the NT and father of the gentile/non jewish church has a physical body who still struggles with sin everyday! He says is soul spirit can identify said sin and hates said sin but his body is still a slave to this sin and even though he knows better he can not control the body his soul/spirit is trapped in. this body commits the sins he hates while ignores the good he knows he should be doing.. he lements and identifies a principle that if we hate this sin that we do it is not us/soul spirit who sin, but the evil this body is owned by.

So when we die the evil of this body dies and when this soul/spirit is called back into an uncorrupted body, we will be able to live without the sin we hate.

the whole book of romans talks about this but specifically in chapters 6, 7 and 8

the heart of the matter found in 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

So you person with torrets can simply be trapped in a mind/body consumed by sin.

the short answer is Christ will know and judge correctly.


Quote:If you are correct in your video when you say that this type of prayer works, this should produce a testable, reliable treatment, of significantly higher efficacy than a placebo (such as making a very sincere promise to their parents, who might not be in the room with them, never to do it again) for a documented condition that can be shown under laboratory conditions.
  This would count as... well, not total verification, since it doesn't confirm why it works, but the beginnings of verification.  And if it doesn't produce those results, it would count as falsification of what you're saying.
Again not with in the parameters of a theological discussion. you like one of the fat ugly step sisters trying to shoe horn her size 12 fat hoof into one of cinderella's size 6 glass slippers. Words like efficacy and falsifiability have no place here as they rely on chance and the ability to quantify the unknown/knowable. God is not unknowable. we do not need to  try and cram our understanding into a revelation. If you want to experience the revelation, then follow God's instructions. Otherwise know there is no formula God will abide by outside of his own will. which we can know as he has expressed it.

Efficacy is trial an error based on the assumption that a specific formula will yield a desirable answer. To look for efficacy here is to look to eliminate God's personal discretion, which is at the heart of his expressed will.  You are looking for an equation that produces a summary result you can then attribute to God or a equation for god. Know the limits of your discipline (science) as one form of intellect does not rule them all. 

If we are to have a discussion about he God of the bible, then the discipline or ring you must wear is that of theology. trying to force science into a theological matter is as foolish if not more so than making a scientific discussion one of theology. Why is it worse? because as an 'educated enlightened science' type you ought to know better.


Quote:And if I'm misunderstanding the sort of prayer you're identifying as working, then you need to rework your video, because the line you're trying to draw isn't clear at all.
here is the reason i used those pics as sort of a book chapter and verse.

so around one min (snoopy snow cone machine till about 3:30 fat bat man trying to decide cake or pie ) I make a very clear distinction between prayer and supplication. I show where the two are used and even provided the greek and defination of the greek showing prayer as in the formal out line in luke 11/defined prayer, and the other form of supplication made in other places in the bible. where people were asking god for things.

the type of prayer and the changes that needed to be made are those to help us obtain the holy Spirit. Prayer's only function is to grow us and God in hopes that we can receive God directly. once we have the holy Spirit the game changes as the holy Spirit is god. you want proof of God what better proof than full access to God?

everything becomes tertiary to this.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
You think Mork was actually an alien from Ork, don't you?
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 03:51 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-15-2020, 03:35 AM)Paleophyte Wrote: I really don't think that you get it. In your attempt to explain why god never seems to answer prayers you've managed to make him look like a complete bastard. The sort that can 'look into this universe like a 20 gallon Walmart aquarium' but won't do shit about little Timmy's cancer unless you grovel and plead in precisely the right way. It's the same mistake you made with 'Why bad things happen to good people'.

In trying to excuse your god's absence you have succeeded only in making him unworthy of worship.
that was a predetermined solution you are trying to force on to what I said..

Do demonstrate please explain to us, my reason God does not answer prayer.

Immaterial. Any deity that can't respond to a simple request and has to be prayed to in a specific manner either lacks omniscience or is a petulant whiner unworthy of a Like on Facebook, much less worship.

Quote:you have no clue, therefore your above answer was a diatribe you had formulated and believe coming into the discussion and is not apart of any reasoning provided here. your inability to even summarize my answer is proof of this...

No, it's simply proof that I haven't subscribed to your Youtube channel. Congrats.

Quote:Ad hom straw man in 3... 2... 1....

Accusing me of fallacies before I've had the chance to even present an argument is a classic example of Poisoning the Well. Nicely done.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
Prayer: Every religion has it and every religion laughs at the prayers of all the others. Funny how they never get the joke.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 08:38 PM)Drich Wrote: This is a fact and I provide all fact concerning Christ and prayer.

LOL. So you claim ... with no evidence. Wrong again dufus. 
You provide your uneducated opinions on things you have no education in. 
You assert things and have no evidence for them. 

Your arguments are not "theological". You never studied theology. 
You opinions are OUTSIDE the mainstream of Christianity. 
The barriers to entry for internet religious nut cases (such as you) are very very low. 
Anyone can claim to know about Jesus and have "facts" about Jesus ... and they do.  
You have no corner on your Jebus market. You nut cases are a dime a dozen ... all over the internet. 

You are stupid enough to try to pawn your garbage on am atheist site. Try taking a marketing class. 
You market/target audience is not atheists.
No one here buys the shit you post. You're talking to the wall.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 02:56 PM)Drich Wrote: Jesus said not one jot of the law would change till it was finished. What did he cry out on the cross before he died? "it is finished."

Shake   "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."
No gods necessary
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-18-2020, 12:48 AM)brunumb Wrote:
(02-17-2020, 02:56 PM)Drich Wrote: Jesus said not one jot of the law would change till it was finished. What did he cry out on the cross before he died? "it is finished."

Shake   "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."

I pointed this out a few pages back ... he will ignore what he finds inconvenient.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 08:38 PM)Drich Wrote:
Quote:Fundamentally, all of this is just assertion and interpretation.  Most of what you're saying has little to it that is falsifiable or verifiable.  
that's because this is a theological argument... if you don't know what that means it means it is not held to the same standard a scientific argument is held to. for one there is no need for falsifiability. Falsifiability is only needed in the support structure of a theory. This is not a theory. it is like trying to falsify the data on a street map. it can take you where you want to go or if you can't read a map you will get lost.

I like this analogy of a street map.  Let's roll with it.

It IS possible to falsify a satisfy a street map.  Simply drive to a point and check to see if the reality of how the roads are laid out match the map.  Maybe the map shows a road that no longer exists.  Various GPS systems were catching flack for this a few years ago.  Maybe there are roads there that weren't on the map.  Maybe the distances shown on the map are off, and you can confirm this with an odometer or surveying equipment.  

Any map which is trying to depict something in reality can be fact-checked.  Every detail of the map that is of any usefulness to know, like which roads connect to each other, where they are located, or so on, are also things that we can check, and the things that make them useful to know or lead us to want to know are the very things that we use to check them.  Those ways of checking are also viable ways the map might have been drawn up in the first place.  Why do I want to know how the roads connect?  Maybe I want to get from Point A to Point B.  If so, traveling from Point A to Point B is not only the value of using the map in question, it is also confirmation (in part) of the map's information, AND it's also one possible way the map was constructed.

WHY could a road map be wrong?  There are any number of reasons, and a lot of them are analogous to thinks that happened or might have happened in the construction of the Bible.  Maybe the people they sent out to the site simply copied the information down wrong, like misspelling a street name or leaving a 0 out of the address numbers for a block.  Maybe they simply copied the map from another source, and that source was unreliable.  Maybe the streets names have changed and new streets added since the map was published, and the map just isn't applicable to modern reality.  Maybe the map makers might have inserted an interesting set of roads in an empty spot of land out of pure whimsy, like the scribal interpolations that produced stories like the woman taken in adultery.  Maybe the map makers tried to extort a certain business, saying threatening to leave that business's access road off the map unless the business owner paid them a kickback, and when the poor schmuck refused to pony up the map was altered to include deliberate misinformation.  Now I'm not going to point a finger and definitively say that the later priesthood altered the Bible out of greed, but I will point out that the final product edited and compiled by that priesthood includes the command that those priests are due 10% of everyone's income.

The point is, it is very possible to falsify a street map.  Maps don't have many errors for the very reason that it's possible for the map's reader to identify errors and call them out.  If a map shows a highway leading from San Francisco to Honolulu, that can be shown to be false.  I do not have to take it as unquestionable truth.  I can write a polite letter to the map's publisher pointing out the mistake.  For that matter, the publisher has a host of ways to identify and correct the error on its own, before or after publication, and set matters right.  Those methods are also the ones that the publisher can use to put together a correct map in the first place.  That's the nicely synergistic combo of a good method for finding the truth (meaning, among other things, that multiple map-makers will agree), a good method for checking that it is true, and a good method for correcting it if it's false that you get when you have something that represents information about reality in a useful way.

(02-17-2020, 08:38 PM)Drich Wrote: This is a fact and I provide all fact concerning Christ and prayer.
1) he was asked twice; "as followers how do we pray?" this is recorded in mat7 luke11. each outline is the same, no other prayers or outlines for formal prayer are offered. Again this is an undeniable fact. .

2) there are other examples of prayer in the church that do not follow this pattern these are identified as petitions or supplicatory prayer.
There is a greek word for this and I provide it along with the greek word for the formal prayer which shows a separation of meaning in these two prayers.

Since christ only identifies one form of prayer and then says ask in prayer anything in my name (and even goes on to tell you what to ask for in the luke 11 version) we can discern this is the singular purpose of formal prayer. As no other prayers were ever offered by christ himself nor examples given when asked.

Again no falsification needed as this is not a theory but a review of the documented review of 'prayer.'

I suppose that depends on what you mean by the word fact.  But you seem to be talking about it being fact in the sense that this was  the original meaning or intent of the original authors of the Biblical passages, rather than it being what actually happens in reality.  (It's a fact that the map shows this road in this place, and this particular number along the line representing the road represents this particular feature of the road, as opposed to it being a fact that the road is actually there and actually having that feature.)  I'm not particularly interested in disputing that, because I'm deeply unconvinced that the original intent or meaning were accurate, even before any distortions of translation, interpretation, or the mistakes of inevitably come from viewing an umpteen-centuries-old document through a very distinct cultural lens.

That said, it's obvious there are quite a few Christians, even scholarly Christians who have read the same text as you with the same access to, care of, and understanding of original word meanings, and yet have come to very different conclusions.  This suggests to me that something about the methodologies that most of you are using are using is flawed and, what is more, you collectively don't have a good way of sitting down and comparing methodologies to come to an agreement about which ones work and which ones don't.

(02-17-2020, 08:38 PM)Drich Wrote: Again supplicatory prayer is little more than a wishing ceremony. it is used through out the nt. it is identified separately. this form of prayer is all that is remember by most. it has a different greek word provided in the video. this includes everything from the want of money a new mate a new job a house children anything you might want god to give you.

The point of the video was to draw a line between supplication and prayer. 

To answer the question the reason most prayers are not answer because people have forgotten what prayer is. They assume prayer is a wishing ceremony and it is not. it is you humbling yourself before God and learning to ask what he wants for you not the other way round.

Aaaand I think that puts us outside of the realm of falsification.  The synergistic combo vanishes.  There's no method to fact-check whether this claim is actually true.  (Not the claim that the Bible SAYS this is how prayer works, but rather the claim that this is actually how prayer works.  That is, no way to check that there's actually a bridge from San Francisco to Hawaii, rather than just check that the map says it's there.)  There's no way to know if it's true in the first place, and no way to correct it if it turns out to be false.

Hmmm... wait, maybe if the revelations doled out by God to different people in response to these prayers don't match up?  Maybe that could be a falsification criteria?

.... no, it's only learning what God wants for you, and you can't check that revelation against the revelation others claim to have received, because their subject area wouldn't overlap.  But it does seem to be implying that when OTHER PEOPLE claim that God told them what he wanted for YOU, that's out of bounds.

(02-17-2020, 08:38 PM)Drich Wrote:
Quote:It might serve as a handy post-hoc rationalization for someone trying to figure out how to reconcile unanswered prayer with their faith, but it doesn't actually demonstrate or even defend any aspect of the faith.
why should it? Faith and prayer are two seperate things. prayer does not even require faith. unless you are making wishes which again is the reason for the video. To show you making wishes and prayer are not the same thing.

For a lot of Christians, the power of prayer is an aspect of the faith and serves to buttress their faith.  It's part of the personal relationship with God that so many Christians think is the core of the faith.  It's part of the method that they use to authenticate the Bible as something reliable, or that they trust others have used to authenticate it.  For a lot of Christians it's a huge part of their faith, and realizing it doesn't work as they'd envisioned it can cause a major crisis of faith, as you acknowledge later on.  Either that faith in the power of prayer needs to be defended, or it needs to be abandoned and the larger framework of their Christian belief needs to be abandoned as well or changed (what you're trying to do by helping them change their interpretation of what prayer is) to account for that missing piece.

(02-17-2020, 08:38 PM)Drich Wrote:
Quote:Well, okay, maybe addiction is part of God's plan for you, or maybe it's something God doesn't care about.  How about something that God unambiguously doesn't like: blasphemy and taking his name in vain.  The Bible's pretty clear that God regards this as a no-no.  So let's imagine someone with a case of severe coprolalia (involuntary utterances, most popularly associated with Tourette's Syndrome).  This person shouts things like "Goddammit!" and "Jesus Fucking Christ!" at frequent intervals, and is not capable of stopping on their own.  So, they pray.  They pray for the Spirit to transform them into someone who won't do this thing God hates, or to give them the strength to fight the urge, or to take away the demon that's possessing them, or whatever.
let's hope it is not confined to tourettes.. Or I'm in serious trouble.

It's not.  It's a symptom of several neurological disorders.  What's more, only a small minority of people with Tourette's display that particular symptom.


(02-17-2020, 08:38 PM)Drich Wrote: Christ says several times there is forgiveness for taking his name and his father name in vain.

In romans 7 Paul talks to our nature being mind body and soul/spirit.

Say Satan is a share cropper/plantation owner who who breeds slaves so his buddy demons can consume/plague them.
God owns the land signed a lease with us but we got drunk and lost our lease to satan So his plantation now and everything he grown or is born on it belongs to him.

God says i want rights to harvest first everyone/slave who want to be free, and offered his son as payment for everyone who would ever want to be free from satan and go be with God.

The deal was struck, God can have the souls and spirits if they/we decide to go. But the body mind in this life will always belong to satan.

God through paul in romans tells us our bodys are slaves to sin and always will be. even he the apostle paul who basically wrote 2/3 of the NT and father of the gentile/non jewish church has a physical body who still struggles with sin everyday! He says is soul spirit can identify said sin and hates said sin but his body is still a slave to this sin and even though he knows better he can not control the body his soul/spirit is trapped in. this body commits the sins he hates while ignores the good he knows he should be doing.. he lements and identifies a principle that if we hate this sin that we do it is not us/soul spirit who sin, but the evil this body is owned by.

So when we die the evil of this body dies and when this soul/spirit is called back into an uncorrupted body, we will be able to live without the sin we hate.

the whole book of romans talks about this but specifically in chapters 6, 7 and 8

the heart of the matter found in 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

So you person with torrets can simply be trapped in a mind/body consumed by sin.

the short answer is Christ will know and judge correctly.

I wasn't asking about spiritual forgiveness or salvation for people with Tourette's.  I was trying to see if that was one possible way of fact-checking what you were saying.  But your clarification of what you meant by prayer puts that out of reach.

(02-17-2020, 08:38 PM)Drich Wrote:
Quote:If you are correct in your video when you say that this type of prayer works, this should produce a testable, reliable treatment, of significantly higher efficacy than a placebo (such as making a very sincere promise to their parents, who might not be in the room with them, never to do it again) for a documented condition that can be shown under laboratory conditions.
  This would count as... well, not total verification, since it doesn't confirm why it works, but the beginnings of verification.  And if it doesn't produce those results, it would count as falsification of what you're saying.
Again not with in the parameters of a theological discussion. you like one of the fat ugly step sisters trying to shoe horn her size 12 fat hoof into one of cinderella's size 6 glass slippers. Words like efficacy and falsifiability have no place here as they rely on chance and the ability to quantify the unknown/knowable. God is not unknowable. we do not need to  try and cram our understanding into a revelation. If you want to experience the revelation, then follow God's instructions. Otherwise know there is no formula God will abide by outside of his own will. which we can know as he has expressed it.

Efficacy is trial an error based on the assumption that a specific formula will yield a desirable answer. To look for efficacy here is to look to eliminate God's personal discretion, which is at the heart of his expressed will.  You are looking for an equation that produces a summary result you can then attribute to God or a equation for god. Know the limits of your discipline (science) as one form of intellect does not rule them all. 

If we are to have a discussion about he God of the bible, then the discipline or ring you must wear is that of theology. trying to force science into a theological matter is as foolish if not more so than making a scientific discussion one of theology. Why is it worse? because as an 'educated enlightened science' type you ought to know better.

Efficacy does not comment one way or the other about the will of, or existence of, God, and certainly makes no attempts to eliminate either.  It just says how frequently and how well something works, without comment on whether or how God wills it.  If God should hypothetically change His mind and make it stop working, or make it work only half the time, or whatever, then the efficacy would change and so too, hopefully, would our measurements of the efficacy.

Falsifiability is about qualification, not quantification.  Specifically, it's the quality of "if this idea is wrong, we can discover that it's wrong".  It's contrasted with the quality of "if this idea is wrong, we will never be able to discover that it's wrong".  Also, falsification is the act or event of demonstrating something to be wrong.  None of these things are numbers, and so this is not a quantification.

Unfalsifiable theology is terrifying, because theology is deeply unreliable and because theology has such a history of violence.  It's unreliability is something that CAN be quantified.  Count up all the contradictory theologies that have been generated from all the religions in the world.  I'll be generous and say this number is 100, though it's almost certainly an order of magnitude or more larger.  Because these theologies are contradictory, the number of these theologies that are actually true is either 1 or 0.  That means theology is either 1% reliable, or 0% reliable.

But if theology is unfalsifiable, then when there's an error in a theology, no means exists of identifying and correcting it.  The entire synergistic combo (good method of arriving at truth, of checking that it's true, and correcting if it's not) falls apart.  Theology is based on unreliable approaches to truth-finding (dreams, declarations from self-appointed prophets, word-of-mouth tradition, etc) and we know that they're unreliable because of the frequency with which their results contradict each other across religions.  There's no self-correcting features involved at all, since faith prevents any correction from being made.  (If you doubt this, try correcting a violent, extremist, radical Muslim about his theology.  I'll watch.  From a distance.) 

This is why road maps are consistently very close to each other and reality, while theologies diverge wildly across thousands of issues, each demanding that it be accepted uncritically and unquestionably while the great diversity of them guarantees, of logical necessity, that 99% or more of them must be wrong.

And it gets worse than that.  Because when you make theology something in which demonstrations that something is false can't be made and can't persuade, then what's left?  How do you persuade someone you're right?  How do they persuade you that they're right?  How do I, on my own, question whether I'm right, discover I've made a mistake, and correct that mistake?  Because at the point where it becomes impossible to convince someone that they're wrong, then talking, logic, science, or simply showing something to people no longer work.  This, more than anything else, is why religions react so violently to competing religion.  You automatically know the other guy is wrong, and the only way to make him stop being wrong is to make him dead.  All other options for resolving differences have been taken off the table.  (Save for just peaceful coexistence, and honestly, who expects that out of religion?)

As for shoving science into the realm of theology?  Well, it appeared at the time (before your clarification of what you meant by prayer) that your theology was creeping into the realm that could be addressed by science.  If you want to do the whole non-overlapping magesteria thing, fine, so long as you back off every time you come near science's realm.  Otherwise we get theology claiming evolution isn't real, or claiming vaccines are the work of the devil and spread disease, or claiming the Earth is flat, or claiming climate change is a hoax, and we're not allowed to use science to address any of that because now they're theological questions?  And that's before we get into value judgements that science can't really weigh in on, like whether the Biblical principle of female subservience is a good thing.  Yes, there are Christians who hold all these theological viewpoints.  Simultaneously.  Without anything they'd accept as proof they're wrong.  While waving an AR-15 and ranting about how they'll shoot people like me dead for being in league with Satan -- another claim that's apparently beyond any need for demonstration or means of falsification.  At the root of the problem, we're talking about people who think the map they're holding is the perfect depiction of reality as revealed in a completely unverifiable manner by divine agency (rather than some reproducible method like sending out surveyors), who never check it against reality and deny reality whenever it contradicts the map, and who will never correct the map in a million years.

And we're getting all of that anyway, regardless of whether scientific-minded people look at religion critically or not.  AND we're getting theologies (or people who believe them uncritically) causing massive harm to individuals, society, government, and the world.

A bit of aggressive searching for any way to tear apart those theologies is a matter of simple necessity.
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 03:06 PM)Drich Wrote: ive got +48 on AF.org

47. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
I can't believe that this Drich character has so much spare time on his hands—judging by checking
out the walls of text he posts.    Does he not have a family, or friends, or a workplace to attend?
Does he spend all his days locked in his basement typing out ridiculously detailed but irrelevant
responses to people across dozens of fora?

What a miserable fucking existence.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 03:29 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(02-17-2020, 03:24 PM)Drich Wrote: by whom? the holy Spirit?

how many time must I say this is between you and God. no preist=no out side influence or indoctrination.

Ironically, what should be between you and god should not also be between you and an entire church congregation.

Just saying, if personal evidence is going to be something to which you cling, then don't bring the community into it.

I bring a testimony with instruction on how to obtain your own personal evidence with little to no cost to you at all. That's how it works and what we are charged to do once we have connected with God.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 03:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:What did he cry out on the cross before he died? "it is finished."


That's one version of the story, dumbass.  You see, your fucking gospels can't even agree on that most basic of shit.

Grow up, Dripshit.  You act like an infant.  I keep waiting for your impassioned defense of the Easter Bunny.

and if you put all four together you get a completed picture. they do not have to agree if you are smart enough to understand each brings a different piece of the puzzle.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-18-2020, 06:16 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-17-2020, 03:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:What did he cry out on the cross before he died? "it is finished."


That's one version of the story, dumbass.  You see, your fucking gospels can't even agree on that most basic of shit.

Grow up, Dripshit.  You act like an infant.  I keep waiting for your impassioned defense of the Easter Bunny.

and if you put all four together you get a completed picture. they do not have to agree if you are smart enough to understand each brings a different piece of the puzzle.

If your puzzle parts don't agree, you end up with a mismatched puzzle. It's the same with the gospels. Contradicting stories don't combine to a cohesive whole.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-18-2020, 06:15 PM)Drich Wrote:
(02-17-2020, 03:29 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:
(02-17-2020, 03:24 PM)Drich Wrote: by whom? the holy Spirit?

how many time must I say this is between you and God. no preist=no out side influence or indoctrination.

Ironically, what should be between you and god should not also be between you and an entire church congregation.

Just saying, if personal evidence is going to be something to which you cling, then don't bring the community into it.

I bring a testimony with instruction on how to obtain your own personal evidence with little to no cost to you at all. That's how it works and what we are charged to do once we have connected with God.

That's nice l'll Dripship. You bring nothing.
The fact is, it contradicts the Bible ... Paul told you that faith is a gift .. not a matter of instructions and "doing things correctly".  
No one here buys into your crap. Your missing the ONE thing any real businessman knows ... know your target audience.
You angry "testimony" is shit. Get lost. That may be YOUR OPINION on how it works.
No one cares about the opinion of an angry fool who can't even spell like a 4th grader.
Also you're theologically wrong. Your "it's between me and god" in heresy. Christianity, especially the early Christianity you claim, had no "individual" Christians. Christianity always came in communities, and those (like you) who went off the rails, (like your non-hippie Jebus) got booted out from the communities as heretics. Your little cult of one does not meet the test of being like the early communities you claim. Your it's between me an god is not the position of early Christians.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 03:59 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
Drich/ Wrote:luke 11 is the extension/correlating verses, you have to consolidate all all of it to get a proper understanding. you can not just pick one and ignore the others.

According to whom ? You ? LMAO.
You certainly are an expert on nothing.
according to basic theology and the term exegesis. 
http://library.bu.edu/libraryresearchsth...ngexegesis

To only look at one passage is to pericope a given message. you wanting to pretend you passage is mat 7 is the only relevant passage on the subject, is to pericope this passage and specific teaching. if however if you want a complete understanding one must seek an exegetical understanding that takes all passages on the subject into consideration and from this broaden view provide a non contradictory reading or interpretation of the passage.

Again basic theology 101. Something you seeming have no understanding of, yet you try and judge other from a clear position of sheer ignorance. Your lack of basic knowledge here even hinders you from making proper insults. Your like a little brother trying to impress big brother's girl friend by using words you do not fully understand.

maybe go back to grading basic english composition. You are failing so badly here it embarrasses me to see anyone fail this hard.

Quote:
He said to them, “When you pray, say:
“‘Father,[a]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.[b]
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
    for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation.[d]’”

They are NOT asking to be changed.
Fail again. [/quote]
The changes are from an internally self centered perspective. Thy kingdom come means to have God's will carried out here.
IE: do you think abortion moral?? God doesn't. Strangely enough killing babies is wrong, why? because you would not want to be murdered without cause or reason.
Do you see a need for change now?
Need another example? Do you know how you love it when you boy friend comes over and you have the whole weekend together doing cigarette stuff? You do know Your kinda in violation of worshiping God with all of your body, when it is "steeped" in your BF's sauce. Especially when God says the only sex we are to have is the sanctified sex between a husband and wife.

You have no doubt thousands of reasons justifying this behavior, but there is no justification for it before God. only repentance and forgiveness. which is why if you justify your sins (which all 'moral people' do) then you in this prayer are asking for change. Do you see it now smart guy?

Sorry didn't mean to get so far ahead of you that you got lost, I just assumed you pretending to know so much, about this religion you can judge the teacher.. that you'd be able to connect your own dots to see where your 'morality' and God's kingdom come would be in conflict and demand change. I forgot you are only feigning knowledge on the subject. I keep forgetting everything you know of this religion is wrong which is why you failed and why you continue to fail when ever you try and describe a portion of it.


Quote:Do you see now a discrepancy between your world and God's world? 

This is a site for non-believers. [/quote] TO have discussion about christianity. which is what we are doing.

Quote:Prove your gods exist,
Only he can do that, which he promised to do if you seek him out on his terms or pound sand.
Quote:or STFU. Stop your fool preaching.
mr.s smartly, it is not preaching if you are challenging me or asking me questions.

Quote:Do not mention your god(s) again until you have proven it exists AND demonstrated the authority of your scripture, AND given us your credentials to be saying ANYTHING at all about anything. 
Take your time.
1) the proof is in what I myself have seen which is more than enough to establish or refute any case i might be apart of in this country. This is the same evidence offered to you if you simply seek him out on his terms.

2)the authority of scripture is no greater than a road map. It can take you where you are going if you know where you want to Go and follow the road signs. it is just as useless as a road map if you do not understand how to read it.

3) My credentials are no greater or less than what it required by the founders of this website require for anyone to freely post content that comply with in the base/standards of the rules they place on everyone equally. what did you think sport I needed a special license maybe in your toltollterian heart where unpopular speech is suppressed and people are forced to only think in smaller terms than you do.

Nothing more than is even in today's limited free speech society is required. 

That said get over yourself. could you imagine if I was the one challenging you right to speak as an atheist demanding your credentials! Sun
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-18-2020, 08:04 PM)Drich Wrote: To only look at one passage is to pericope a given message.

LMOA.   Thaks for proving to everyione you never once had a class in the Bible. The work "pericope" is not a verb. One does not "pericope" something.
Here's what it really is, you buffoon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericope
I have no intention of discussing theology with an ignoramus who never took 1 class in it.
Go away. You have no audience here. And from what you say, I see you have no credentials to preach anything.
I thought you were giving up the word "sport" ... liar.
Everyone sees, despite your little tantrum, you addressed NONE of the points.
You're such a joke.
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why your prayers often, if not always fail
(02-17-2020, 11:12 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(02-17-2020, 03:51 PM)Drich Wrote: [quote="Paleophyte" pid='185411' dateline='1581737719']
I really don't think that you get it. In your attempt to explain why god never seems to answer prayers you've managed to make him look like a complete bastard. The sort that can 'look into this universe like a 20 gallon Walmart aquarium' but won't do shit about little Timmy's cancer unless you grovel and plead in precisely the right way. It's the same mistake you made with 'Why bad things happen to good people'.

In trying to excuse your god's absence you have succeeded only in making him unworthy of worship.
that was a predetermined solution you are trying to force on to what I said..
 
what can't? who said can't?
how about won't.
why? because he is not a circus clown here to perform tricks for you when you have been commanded to formally approach a given way.

Quote:Do demonstrate please explain to us, my reason God does not answer prayer.

Immaterial. Any deity that can't respond to a simple request and has to be prayed to in a specific manner either lacks omniscience or is a petulant whiner unworthy of a Like on Facebook, much less worship.
it is not immaterial it is the crux of your specific demima.
In essence you have created your own God, then pray to him your own way... then expect the God of the bible to animate and interact with you through this dummy deity you semi have control over.

That my broken friend is the issue.

You are looking to control God and anything you do not have final say over you say is not worth worship.

To which I point out this is the purpose of this life. Meaning you whole life is centered around your confession right then and there. to determine whether or not you can worship god on his terms or if you like satan demand final say in what god can and can not do.

Quote:you have no clue, therefore your above answer was a diatribe you had formulated and believe coming into the discussion and is not apart of any reasoning provided here. your inability to even summarize my answer is proof of this...
No, it's simply proof that I haven't subscribed to your Youtube channel. Congrats.
wrong.. I was right the first time youtube be damned. You thought you knew enough on the subject to have a conversation when in fact the subject undermined everything you thought you knew.

Quote:Ad hom straw man in 3... 2... 1...

Accusing me of fallacies before I've had the chance to even present an argument is a classic example of Poisoning the Well. Nicely done.
here's the problem with that... It was clear from the start you had no clue what the spin I put on the subject matter was all about. you went off the typical atheist rant on prayer which again the video undermines as it properly defines prayer and defines the purpose of prayer. none of which is known in this community.

For example i posted this subject here which 13 pages and two weeks later this is still a hot button subject while on a similar christian site 3 comments were made one was mine. 

It is because christians understand the nature of prayer and you clowns loose faith because you think it is a formal wishing ceremony then get pissy when you wishes don't come true.

The well was poisoned when you thought you had all you needed on the subject and did not watch the video, rather pour out your own personal vitriol tainting the whole subject matter.

This conversation should look nothing like this, if first you had topically educated yourself before you spoke.
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