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Does the soul exist?

Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 06:31 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(02-16-2020, 02:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: The doctrine (molinism) from the beginning:

In one single intuition, God played out all possible worlds of free humans--including counterfactuals of our actions and his actions/responses to see which world would bring about the most people genuinely seeking after him. He predicted every action and reaction at this point. His knowledge comes from before he actualized the world we have. This is called middle knowledge.

See that bit in bold? That's you saying that there are no choices.

Quote:It will play out as he predicted. It cannot be any other way.

See? No choices. 0.000% free will.

Quote:In that sense, and only from that perspective of inside the mind of God is the world determined.

A world that is deterministic in any sense is fully deterministic. The fact that you're unaware of the inevitable outcome provides only the illusion of choice.

Quote:That does not mean we do not have free will (which was the entire point of this series of posts).

Yes, it really, really does. If god predicts that I will choose chocolate ice cream and there is no possible way that I can do anything other than what god has predicted then I have no choice whatsoever.

If what God knows is your choice, then by definition the world is not deterministic. That's it, your entire counter argument hinges on a bad definition. It is irrelevant that you will not choose vanilla.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 05:32 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Again, if God creates us, God must design us.  Good moral nature, indifferent, bad.  Why would God choose bad or indifferent?  How does this fit with the theory of intelligent design?  Is an eternal hell of torment for sentient beings part of this intelligent design theists keep telling us exists?  It would seem then, that this intelligent designer beasty is not that intelligent or is rather malevolent and malicious at best.

Is this intelligent designer God a sadist like a ten year old kid setting off fire crackers in an anthill?

Natural theology is the theology of proving God exists by starting with the nature of the world we see around us and demonstrating an all powerful, morally perfect and loving God exists.  It looks like that is not really a good idea when we carefully examine this idea.

I said this before about your 'good moral nature argument':

God does not have a "good moral nature" that somehow we could have had if he made us that way.

God is the standard of what is good. His nature is the definition of what is good. Describing him with a "good moral nature" requires you do define what is good apart from God (subjective) and that nowhere near the doctrine of God. So, you are not using the orthodox conception of God which leads you to a chain of errors. God could not have created us with his nature because it a property that only God could possess. So a "good moral nature" instantiated in a human could only mean inability not to do evil.

If God designed us with a "good moral nature" then that would not be libertarian free will. The entire Bible illustrates that we have free will and the entire plan of salvation requires we have it. Your hell point is weak without your 'good moral nature' and with the existence of free will.

Natural Theology does NOT demonstrate "morally perfect and loving God exists". It demonstrates that God exists. The plan of salvation, the hope for the broken, the strength for the weak, the anchor for purpose demonstrates that a loving God exists.
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Does the soul exist?
I see Steve is still off his medications.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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Does the soul exist?
(11 hours ago)SYZ Wrote: I see Steve is still off his medications.

At a certain point, you have to feel sorry for the mentally challenged.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 12:44 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-16-2020, 02:52 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-16-2020, 02:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: The doctrine (molinism) from the beginning:

In one single intuition, God played out all possible worlds of free humans--including counterfactuals of our actions and his actions/responses to see which world would bring about the most people genuinely seeking after him. He predicted every action and reaction at this point. His knowledge comes from before he actualized the world we have. This is called middle knowledge.

Okay i think we are getting closer to the question i was asking, by what mechanism does god 'play out' all possible worlds ?

In an omniscient mind. If God creates world A then this set of events will unfold. He knows human choices because he can see how every event, every experience, how every thought is formed and will play out. He sees what effect his interventions have. If he could do it for one possible world, he could do it for every possible world.

No, i understand what you are saying, I'm asking specifically how god plays out the scenario's, given that..

1) god cannot see the future
2) god does not calculate the futures 

Exactly how does he play out the possible options, in worlds that don't even exist
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 12:52 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(Yesterday, 06:31 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(02-16-2020, 02:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: The doctrine (molinism) from the beginning:

In one single intuition, God played out all possible worlds of free humans--including counterfactuals of our actions and his actions/responses to see which world would bring about the most people genuinely seeking after him. He predicted every action and reaction at this point. His knowledge comes from before he actualized the world we have. This is called middle knowledge.

See that bit in bold? That's you saying that there are no choices.

Quote:It will play out as he predicted. It cannot be any other way.

See? No choices. 0.000% free will.

Quote:In that sense, and only from that perspective of inside the mind of God is the world determined.

A world that is deterministic in any sense is fully deterministic. The fact that you're unaware of the inevitable outcome provides only the illusion of choice.

Quote:That does not mean we do not have free will (which was the entire point of this series of posts).

Yes, it really, really does. If god predicts that I will choose chocolate ice cream and there is no possible way that I can do anything other than what god has predicted then I have no choice whatsoever.

If what God knows is your choice, then by definition  the world is not deterministic. That's it, your entire counter argument hinges on a bad definition. It is irrelevant that you will not choose vanilla.

But didn't he set in motion a world where we don't have access to any other choice than to eat chocolate?

None of the other worlds have ever existed.
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
Deleted.. Double post
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 01:12 PM)SteveII Wrote: If God designed us with a "good moral nature" then that would not be libertarian free will. The entire Bible illustrates that we have free will and the entire plan of salvation requires we have it. Your hell point is weak without your 'good moral nature' and with the existence of free will.

Except that you cannot prove free will, even with the fantasy of unprovable imagined other worlds that were never actualised, it sounds much more like an admittance of determinism than you imagine. 

Quote:Natural Theology does NOT demonstrate "morally perfect and loving God exists". It demonstrates that God exists. The plan of salvation, the hope for the broken, the strength for the weak, the anchor for purpose demonstrates that a loving God exists.

Except you cannot prove that 'hope for the broken' or 'strength for the weak' are given by any god, they may seem miracles to you (because you are primed to believe them) there is no proof that they are anymore than mind states given by organised help, and in the case of religion false hopes.

And the problem of evil simply isn't, that you have to go out of your way so much to explain it reveals it's origins, the minds of men.
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 01:12 PM)SteveII Wrote: Natural Theology does NOT demonstrate "morally perfect and loving God exists". It demonstrates that God exists. The plan of salvation, the hope for the broken, the strength for the weak, the anchor for purpose demonstrates that a loving God exists

LOL. The god who demanded his son DIE so he could feel better ? That is a loving god ? LOL
Natural Theology demonstrates nothing except the bias of the beholders.
More presuppositionalism. Yawn.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 01:12 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(Yesterday, 05:32 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Again, if God creates us, God must design us.  Good moral nature, indifferent, bad.  Why would God choose bad or indifferent?  How does this fit with the theory of intelligent design?  Is an eternal hell of torment for sentient beings part of this intelligent design theists keep telling us exists?  It would seem then, that this intelligent designer beasty is not that intelligent or is rather malevolent and malicious at best.

Is this intelligent designer God a sadist like a ten year old kid setting off fire crackers in an anthill?

Natural theology is the theology of proving God exists by starting with the nature of the world we see around us and demonstrating an all powerful, morally perfect and loving God exists.  It looks like that is not really a good idea when we carefully examine this idea.

I said this before about your 'good moral nature argument':

God does not have a "good moral nature" that somehow we could have had if he made us that way.

God is the standard of what is good. His nature is the definition of what is good. Describing him with a "good moral nature" requires you do define what is good apart from God (subjective) and that nowhere near the doctrine of God. So, you are not using the orthodox conception of God which leads you to a chain of errors. God could not have created us with his nature because it a property that only God could possess. So a "good moral nature" instantiated in a human could only mean inability not to do evil.

If God designed us with a "good moral nature" then that would not be libertarian free will. The entire Bible illustrates that we have free will and the entire plan of salvation requires we have it. Your hell point is weak without your 'good moral nature' and with the existence of free will.

Natural Theology does NOT demonstrate "morally perfect and loving God exists". It demonstrates that God exists. The plan of salvation, the hope for the broken, the strength for the weak, the anchor for purpose demonstrates that a loving God exists.

You seem to be intent on missing the point  Free will is impossible.  It is constrained by our created moral nature.  God cannot dodge being responsible for our moral nature.  we are not brainless jelly fish or some other lowly animal without a moral nature to worry about.  Libertarian free will is right out. Impossible.

Define good moral nature?  God is the supposed source of all morality and defines morality, according to theologians.  God's goodness and his sub-goodnesses are defined in the Bible, Quran, et al.  Nor do we have to define that if we consider good, indifferent, or bad moral natures.  God would define that  A person with a bad moral nature that robs, steals, murders and rapes cannot be defined as good and cannot be defined as having a good moral nature.  It is that simple.

Natural theology cannot get from observations of the universe as it is to existence of a perfectly good and all powerful God such as we find defined in the Bible.  And this fact has glumly been admitted by most modern day theologians.  The best we can do is get a deist god that is not the Biblical God.  We do have modern day deists.  Deism is a subject perhaps for another day. as is modern day pantheism.

Deism carves god down, whittling God to a pale shadow of the Biblical God and still has major theoretical problems.

And the God of the Bible has major problems when considered from the viewpoint of modern day creationism, Intelligent Design.
The moral Nature of Man argument calls that fine tuning, ID God strongly into question.  Why would such a God who must choose our moral nature, good, indifferent, or bad, design us without the only logical choice, a good moral nature while designing our mere biological details?  This makes no sense and collapses as being a reasonable proposition.
In the beginning was the misteak.
Book of Erors 1:1


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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 12:52 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(Yesterday, 06:31 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(02-16-2020, 02:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: The doctrine (molinism) from the beginning:

In one single intuition, God played out all possible worlds of free humans--including counterfactuals of our actions and his actions/responses to see which world would bring about the most people genuinely seeking after him. He predicted every action and reaction at this point. His knowledge comes from before he actualized the world we have. This is called middle knowledge.

See that bit in bold? That's you saying that there are no choices.

Quote:It will play out as he predicted. It cannot be any other way.

See? No choices. 0.000% free will.

Quote:In that sense, and only from that perspective of inside the mind of God is the world determined.

A world that is deterministic in any sense is fully deterministic. The fact that you're unaware of the inevitable outcome provides only the illusion of choice.

Quote:That does not mean we do not have free will (which was the entire point of this series of posts).

Yes, it really, really does. If god predicts that I will choose chocolate ice cream and there is no possible way that I can do anything other than what god has predicted then I have no choice whatsoever.

If what God knows is your choice, then by definition  the world is not deterministic. That's it, your entire counter argument hinges on a bad definition.

Well one of ours does. If what god knows is my "choice", and no other alternative is possible, the by definition the world is deterministic. How could it be otherwise in a universe where every action that I would take was determined an untold eternity before I came into existence?

Quote:It is irrelevant that you will not choose vanilla.

Then show me where the choice is in this "free will" of yours.

Irony: Your dogmatic adherence to Molinism produces a weak argument that's easy to pull apart. I can do better than this apologetics rubbish.
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