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Does the soul exist?
#26

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 05:14 PM)Ranjr Wrote: For the physical person to exist, it must first exist as an idea.  Thus, a soul is the ideal form of an individual. 

Would you care to justify this assertion ?
What are you referencing when you say a "physical person" ?
Which parts of this "physical person" need an idea to exist ?
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#27

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 05:14 PM)Ranjr Wrote: ...Perhaps the contemporary way to define a soul is our genetic code and consciousness, all the information necessary to clone and duplicate the mind and body of an individual.

Nope.  The Christians' baseless notion of what they call a "soul" is a total self-deception or delusion.

To claim simply—without any empirical evidence—that it's somehow a repository of all the
"information" needed to clone a human entity is ludicrous.     Sorry.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#28

Does the soul exist?
If our genetic code and consciousness (what emerges from our physical brains) is what a "soul" is, then the word is redundant and imprecise.
It should not be used.
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#29

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 07:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Would you care to justify this assertion ?
What are you referencing when you say a "physical person" ?
Which parts of this "physical person" need an idea to exist ?

The physical person is the manifestation of the ideal person.  Everything in the universe must exist as an idea before it can exist as matter.  I would not like to justify the quoted assertion.  It's no a scientific statement.  It's an appeal to Platonism.
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#30

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 07:53 PM)SYZ Wrote: Nope.  The Christians' baseless notion of what they call a "soul" is a total self-deception or delusion.

To claim simply—without any empirical evidence—that it's somehow a repository of all the
"information" needed to clone a human entity is ludicrous.     Sorry.

In the post from which you cut, I made it clear what I believe the Christians call a soul.  I was offering a different perspective.

You claim it is a self-deception or delusion with no empirical evidence, so don't hold me to that standard.  I gave a solid effort to describe what may be considered a soul that could exist.
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#31

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 08:33 PM)Ranjr Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 07:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Would you care to justify this assertion ?
What are you referencing when you say a "physical person" ?
Which parts of this "physical person" need an idea to exist ?

The physical person is the manifestation of the ideal person.  Everything in the universe must exist as an idea before it can exist as matter.  I would not like to justify the quoted assertion.  It's no a scientific statement.  It's an appeal to Platonism.

...for which you have no evidence.
LONG before there was any consciousness in this universe, (and on this Earth), things existed when there was no capacity for "ideas".
Long before any consciousness existed on the Earth, there were countless "things" made of countless other things.
There were no ideas of these things until consciousness evolved.
Your "appeal" has no value and no evidence. It's nothing but woo. Dropping a famous name (Plato) does not make it more than woo.
Is a retarded baby a manifestation of an ideal baby ? Is a deformed child a manifestation of an ideal child. Get serious.
The woo of Dualism is easily refuted. There is no "ideal triangle". The idea exists ONLY in conscious beings who HAVE LEARNED by trial and error as infants/toddlers what to name a three-sided object, (which can take many forms). There is no one idea, no ideal, and no dualism.
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#32

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 08:33 PM)Ranjr Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 07:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Would you care to justify this assertion ?
What are you referencing when you say a "physical person" ?
Which parts of this "physical person" need an idea to exist ?

The physical person is the manifestation of the ideal person.  Everything in the universe must exist as an idea before it can exist as matter.  I would not like to justify the quoted assertion.  It's no a scientific statement.  It's an appeal to Platonism.

An appeal to platonism?   Pretty broad area. Do you mean the claim that there are such things as abstract objects? 

Pretty useless making a super-natural  claim to a bunch of atheists.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#33

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 04:44 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Drich or Ditch or Drip or whatever the hell his name is, keeps bringing this sillyness up in his posts. So a few questions.

If a soul exists and can travel somewhere in the afterlife how does it do this?
If a soul exists it must be made of material stuff.  What is this stuff?
If a soul exists and is part of the brain, which is a natural substance that makes material things in the brain which in turn can be measured by neurological equipment, why do scientist never see a "soul"? 
If the soul is the same thing as the brain, the brain dies after death, since the brain is reliant on neurological functions to be viable how does this soul survive brain death?

Here's another thing, one hundred trillion neutrinos pass through the human body each second.   Scientists can measure neutrinos, it's not easy but they can.  Why can scientist find and measure a subatomic particle so small it can pass through the human body but they never find a soul?  

Ahhh, says theists.  "It's invisible".    if the soul isn't a material substance and is more of an invisible supernatural thing then I may as well lay claim to the Invisible Magical Donut orbiting Jupiter.    Whistling

What if the "soul" meant the aspects of the conscious experience that we have difficulty with. How does the passing around of electrical and chemical signals between neurons result in a feeling of pain or an experience of red? We don't know, so would it be okay to call that unobservable sensation of self a "soul?" By this definition, it is not a physical, tangible thing. It's being utilized to describe the aspect of consciousness that isn't tangible.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#34

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 08:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 08:33 PM)Ranjr Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 07:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Would you care to justify this assertion ?
What are you referencing when you say a "physical person" ?
Which parts of this "physical person" need an idea to exist ?

The physical person is the manifestation of the ideal person.  Everything in the universe must exist as an idea before it can exist as matter.  I would not like to justify the quoted assertion.  It's no a scientific statement.  It's an appeal to Platonism.

...for which you have no evidence.
LONG before there was any consciousness in this universe, (and on this Earth), things existed when there was no capacity for "ideas".
Long before any consciousness existed on the Earth, there were countless "things" made of countless other things.
There were no ideas of these things until consciousness evolved.
You "appeal" has no value and no evidence. It's nothing but woo. Dropping a famous name (Plato) does not make it more than woo.
Is a retarded baby a manifestation of an ideal baby ? Is a deformed child a manifestation of an ideal child. Get serious.

You seem to think I threw that pitch as if I thought it was a strike.  Well, good for you.  Bad for discussion.
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#35

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 08:55 PM)Aegon Wrote: How does the passing around of electrical and chemical signals between neurons result in a feeling of pain or an experience of red? We don't know,

We do know. You may not. Neuro-science does.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3438523/
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#36

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 08:52 PM)grympy Wrote: An appeal to platonism?   Pretty broad area. Do you mean the claim that there are such things as abstract objects? 

Pretty useless making a super-natural  claim to a bunch of atheists.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Enjoy the low hanging fruit.  Up next, fish in a barrel.  

Of course there is no such thing as a soul.  Is this a discussion group or not?
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#37

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:01 PM)Ranjr Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 08:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 08:33 PM)Ranjr Wrote: The physical person is the manifestation of the ideal person.  Everything in the universe must exist as an idea before it can exist as matter.  I would not like to justify the quoted assertion.  It's no a scientific statement.  It's an appeal to Platonism.

...for which you have no evidence.
LONG before there was any consciousness in this universe, (and on this Earth), things existed when there was no capacity for "ideas".
Long before any consciousness existed on the Earth, there were countless "things" made of countless other things.
There were no ideas of these things until consciousness evolved.
You "appeal" has no value and no evidence. It's nothing but woo. Dropping a famous name (Plato) does not make it more than woo.
Is a retarded baby a manifestation of an ideal baby ? Is a deformed child a manifestation of an ideal child. Get serious.

You seem to think I threw that pitch as if I thought it was a strike.  Well, good for you.  Bad for discussion.

It's not even a foul ball.
So then, .... you have no evidence. That's what I thought.
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#38

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:04 PM)Ranjr Wrote: Of course there is no such thing as a soul.  Is this a discussion group or not?

You did make a claim. If this were a discussion group, you would be defending your assertions.
It's not a "make any assertion you like and no one will question you" group.
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#39

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 06:15 AM)Dānu Wrote: Without a protagonist to move the conversation forward, I'm not sure what the point of this is.

I keep waiting for Dritch or Drip, or whatever his name is, to show up and make a comment but I think he's too entrenched over in his own thread.  But yeah, it's always more fun when a theist comments.
                                                         T4618
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#40

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:04 PM)Ranjr Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 08:52 PM)grympy Wrote: An appeal to platonism?   Pretty broad area. Do you mean the claim that there are such things as abstract objects? 

Pretty useless making a super-natural  claim to a bunch of atheists.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Enjoy the low hanging fruit.  Up next, fish in a barrel.  

Of course there is no such thing as a soul.  Is this a discussion group or not?


You DID make that claim. I replied. 

 I have never claimed  there is no such thing as a soul.

I don't believe there  is such a thing due to a lack of evidence. I don't claim to know. ---there is no "of course"  for me-. 

In stating there is no soul you have made an affirming (positive)  claim.  The burden of proof is yours, let's see it.
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#41

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: You did make a claim. If this were a discussion group, you would be defending your assertions.
It's not a "make any assertion you like and no one will question you" group.


I offered an explanation of how Hellenistic influence shaped Christian ideas of the soul.  Then offered a modern day understanding of that idea.  You misunderstood it and wanted to play internet gotcha.  That is all.  Good for you.
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#42

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: It's not even a foul ball. 
So then, .... you have no evidence. That's what I thought.

Evidence of what?  Hellenistic influence on early Christian thought?  Yes, I do.

You can't even understand sport analogies.
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#43

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:38 PM)Ranjr Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 09:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: It's not even a foul ball. 
So then, .... you have no evidence. That's what I thought.

Evidence of what?  Hellenistic influence on early Christian thought?  Yes, I do.

You can't even understand sport analogies.

Quote:For the physical person to exist, it must first exist as an idea.  Thus, a soul is the ideal form of an individual.  I use this definition because of the role played by Hellenism in the development of Christianity.

Nowhere here did you make it clear this was NOT your position. You write very poorly.

Quote:Since the idea is permanent, it can be reborn to the physical world again and again, given such a process exists.  Perhaps the contemporary way to define a soul is our genetic code and consciousness, all the information necessary to clone and duplicate the mind and body of an individual. 

Maybe next time you try to engage in a discussion, you can adjust your poor writing ability, and include the fact that the assertion you are making is really an explanation of what others think.
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#44

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:21 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 06:15 AM)Dānu Wrote: Without a protagonist to move the conversation forward, I'm not sure what the point of this is.

I keep waiting for Dritch or Drip, or whatever his name is, to show up and make a comment but I think he's too entrenched over in his own thread.  But yeah, it's always more fun when a theist comments.

If that is what you want, why don't you PM him and ask him if he'd be willing to participate?
[Image: signature%20The-Ascension-of-Iweko.jpg]
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#45

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 08:55 PM)Aegon Wrote: How does the passing around of electrical and chemical signals between neurons result in a feeling of pain or an experience of red? We don't know,

We do know. You may not. Neuro-science does.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3438523/

Did you see what I was getting at, though?
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#46

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 08:33 PM)Ranjr Wrote: The physical person is the manifestation of the ideal person.  Everything in the universe must exist as an idea before it can exist as matter.  I would not like to justify the quoted assertion.  It's not a scientific statement.  It's an appeal to Platonism.

Mate... a couple of hints you need to think about in order to foster meaningful debate.

Don't talk in riddles; EG: a "physical" person is an "ideal" person.   Everything exists as an "idea" before it materialises.

Don't rely on pseudoscience (the paranormal or supernatural) to support your arguments.

Don't reply to every response so defensively and/or combatively.

Don't use thinly-disguised ad hominems  as debating points.

—And you need to think about this with regard to the Abrahamic bible:

In Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible published in 1890—which is an index of all primary words
contained in the King Jame's version of the Bible—the brain is not mentioned once, whereas the heart
is cited 826 times
. In ancient Egypt, from the late Middle Kingdom onwards, in preparation for mummification,
the brain was regularly removed, because it was assumed that the heart that was the seat of human
intelligence
, plus the role of electricity in the brain (bioelectricity) was only discovered in 1811 by
Luigi Galvani—which facts together prove that biblical scholars had not the vaguest notion of what the brain
was, how it functioned, or what it did.

This is the description [sic ] of the human "soul" taken from the Faith and Health Connection
site run by Dale Fletcher (who has a BS in Engineering, and should know better):

"Our soul is what gives us our personality and it’s through our soul that we live out our relationship
with God, with other people and with our self
. Our soul likely has three major components—our mind,
will and emotions. Our mind has a conscious part and a subconscious part. The conscious mind is where
we do our thinking and reasoning. The sub-conscious mind is where we hold our deep beliefs and our
attitudes. It’s also where we have our feeling, our emotions and retain our memories. Our will is what
gives us the ability to make choices. Through a very complex way, our mind, our will and our emotions
are connected to the body through our endocrine, nervous and immune systems."

Note that Fletcher does not actually define the meaning of the word "soul" in any meaningful terms,
other than the very sloppy declarative opening sentence—as I've bolded.

So... the bible had no knowledge of the brain, and modern theists have no knowledge of any putative "soul".
Although each one, apparently, is dependent on the other for its existence.    How does this work?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#47

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 10:01 PM)grympy Wrote: [quote="Bucky Ball" pid='175630' dateline='1578258886']
On close scrutiny, original ideas are a bit thin on the ground in Christianity.   

Not agreeing with christianity in any way, but think "eternal damnation" seems to be an original idea. Sometimes I disagree with people I agree with. LOL! Wink
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#48

Does the soul exist?
(01-07-2020, 01:50 PM)Aegon Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 09:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 08:55 PM)Aegon Wrote: How does the passing around of electrical and chemical signals between neurons result in a feeling of pain or an experience of red? We don't know,

We do know. You may not. Neuro-science does.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3438523/

Did you see what I was getting at, though?

Probably not.  I suspect he holds the view that science has all the answers as a faith position.  Anything which conflicts with that faith will cause him too much cognitive dissonance to possibly take in what you've said.
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#49

Does the soul exist?
Whether or not we understand the firing of neurons as in the existence of something that we can't really describe, I view the problem is one in which people believe this thing continues to exist after we die. Of course my view is that's some bunch of bullshit too Smile
I remember reading about the experiments where they place people who were nearly dead on top of very sensitive scales, trying to calculate the weight of the departing soul. Yeah that didn't work out LOL.
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#50

Does the soul exist?
(01-07-2020, 08:14 PM)Mark Wrote: Probably not.  I suspect he holds the view that science has all the answers as a faith position.  Anything which conflicts with that faith will cause him too much cognitive dissonance to possibly take in what you've said.

You suspect wrong. 
You have no evidence that I have ever taken a position of "faith" with respect to science. 
I know what science is and what it has a grasp of.
What exactly your expertise in, in science ?
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