Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Does the soul exist?
#51

Does the soul exist?
(01-07-2020, 08:21 PM)skyking Wrote: Whether or not we understand the firing of neurons as in the existence of something that we can't really describe, I view the problem is one in which people believe this thing continues to exist after we die. Of course my view is that's some bunch of bullshit too Smile
I remember reading about the experiments where they place people who were nearly dead on top of very sensitive scales, trying to calculate the weight of the departing soul. Yeah that didn't work out LOL.

 Yeah, I read about that dippy experiment. I thought at the time "what about exhaled breath?" Does air have mass? Or too little to measure?
The following 1 user Likes grympy's post:
  • skyking
Reply
#52

Does the soul exist?
(01-07-2020, 08:21 PM)skyking Wrote: Whether or not we understand the firing of neurons as in the existence of something that we can't really describe, I view the problem is one in which people believe this thing continues to exist after we die.

Of course people can be mistaken.


(01-07-2020, 08:21 PM)skyking Wrote: Of course my view is that's some bunch of bullshit too Smile
I remember reading about the experiments where they place people who were nearly dead on top of very sensitive scales, trying to calculate the weight of the departing soul. Yeah that didn't work out LOL.

Well then a soul must be considerably lighter than a breadbox.
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
Reply
#53

Does the soul exist?
(01-07-2020, 08:33 PM)Mark Wrote:
(01-07-2020, 08:21 PM)skyking Wrote: Whether or not we understand the firing of neurons as in the existence of something that we can't really describe, I view the problem is one in which people believe this thing continues to exist after we die.

Of course people can be mistaken.


(01-07-2020, 08:21 PM)skyking Wrote: Of course my view is that's some bunch of bullshit too Smile
I remember reading about the experiments where they place people who were nearly dead on top of very sensitive scales, trying to calculate the weight of the departing soul. Yeah that didn't work out LOL.

Well then a soul must be considerably lighter than a breadbox.
I'm thinking it's some fraction of a duck.

https://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g?t=166
Reply
#54

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 04:44 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Drich or Ditch or Drip or whatever the hell his name is, keeps bringing this sillyness up in his posts. So a few questions.

If a soul exists and can travel somewhere in the afterlife how does it do this?
If a soul exists it must be made of material stuff.  What is this stuff?
If a soul exists and is part of the brain, which is a natural substance that makes material things in the brain which in turn can be measured by neurological equipment, why do scientist never see a "soul"? 
If the soul is the same thing as the brain, the brain dies after death, since the brain is reliant on neurological functions to be viable how does this soul survive brain death?

Here's another thing, one hundred trillion neutrinos pass through the human body each second.   Scientists can measure neutrinos, it's not easy but they can.  Why can scientist find and measure a subatomic particle so small it can pass through the human body but they never find a soul?  

A few more questions for those that believe in the existence of a soul:

What is a soul? (e.g. Does it merely consist of memories or is it also conscious?)
If we have a soul then why do we need neurons?
Why do our mental abilities get affected as our neurons are affected (e.g. consumption of alcohol, drugs, anesthetic, brain damage etc)
How does a soul maintain its coherence without the use of matter?
What power source is used to stop a soul degrading due to the second law of Thermodynamics?
Can souls be theoretically harvested as an energy source?
Why can't we build weapons to disrupt communication between a soul and the body? After all there needs to be some materialistic connection between the two.
The following 1 user Likes Mathilda's post:
  • Dancefortwo
Reply
#55

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 09:21 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-06-2020, 06:15 AM)Dānu Wrote: Without a protagonist to move the conversation forward, I'm not sure what the point of this is.

I keep waiting for Dritch or Drip, or whatever his name is, to show up and make a comment but I think he's too entrenched over in his own thread.  But yeah, it's always more fun when a theist comments.

Oh if you think your initial questions will make Drich doubt himself then be aware that they'll go right over his head.

Drich is someone who once saw a youtube video of some students who built a non-invasive device to steer a remote control car based on the electromagnetic waves it could detect emitted by the brain. He then posted the youtube video on AF as proof that the brain acts an an antennae dish for the soul.

It's the modern day equivalent of thinking that a photograph traps your soul in a bit of paper.
The following 2 users Like Mathilda's post:
  • Phaedrus, Dancefortwo
Reply
#56

Does the soul exist?
(01-08-2020, 01:59 PM)Mathilda Wrote: Oh if you think your initial questions will make Drich doubt himself then be aware that they'll go right over his head.

Drich is someone who once saw a youtube video of some students who built a non-invasive device to steer a remote control car based on the electromagnetic waves it could detect emitted by the brain. He then posted the youtube video on AF as proof that the brain acts an an antennae dish for the soul.

It's the modern day equivalent of thinking that a photograph traps your soul in a bit of paper.

Oh, wow, wish I'd been a part of that conversation.
The following 1 user Likes Phaedrus's post:
  • Dancefortwo
Reply
#57

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 04:44 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Drich or Ditch or Drip or whatever the hell his name is, keeps bringing this sillyness up in his posts. So a few questions.

If a soul exists and can travel somewhere in the afterlife how does it do this?
If a soul exists it must be made of material stuff.  What is this stuff?
If a soul exists and is part of the brain, which is a natural substance that makes material things in the brain which in turn can be measured by neurological equipment, why do scientist never see a "soul"? 
If the soul is the same thing as the brain, the brain dies after death, since the brain is reliant on neurological functions to be viable how does this soul survive brain death?

Here's another thing, one hundred trillion neutrinos pass through the human body each second.   Scientists can measure neutrinos, it's not easy but they can.  Why can scientist find and measure a subatomic particle so small it can pass through the human body but they never find a soul?  

Ahhh, says theists.  "It's invisible".    if the soul isn't a material substance and is more of an invisible supernatural thing then I may as well lay claim to the Invisible Magical Donut orbiting Jupiter.    Whistling

The soul is an immaterial substance that makes you you (the "I" when you refer to yourself). It is not equal to your brain but relies on it in our present state much like a computer software relies on computer hardware. The soul holds our consciousness (it is not equal to our consciousness), which includes our intellect and volition which allow us to be self-reflective and capable of self determination.  I believe like J. P. Moreland that there are various type of souls--from a basic animal with simple reasoning abilities to Chimpanzees with richer capabilities, to humans with even more, to God at the pinnacle. 

Since the soul is immaterial (non physical), any discussion about physically detecting it is misguided (a category error). 'Existence' certainly does not mean the same thing as 'material.'

Any afterlife would not be part of this physical universe so any discussion that uses this universe's physical reality as a foundation is another category error.
Reply
#58

Does the soul exist?
There is no evidence for any of SteveII's assertions. His beliefs are irrelevant.
The faculties which he names are 100 % emergent from known physical processes, which when they are physically damaged, (stroke, disease, trauma, tumors) are impaired by SPECIFIC function, correlated to SPECIFIC physical location. Neurology, Neurosurgery and science can predict which faculty will be impaired by the physical location of brain injury. The concept of "soul" is outdated and an ancient notion which may have served once. It no longer has any usefulness or meaning with Neuro-science at the level it is today.

The use of the concept of "category error here" is an error, and itself false.
Quote:The soul holds our consciousness (it is not equal to our consciousness), which includes our intellect and volition which allow us to be self-reflective and capable of self determination.

..... is a LOCAL concept. Are souls non-local ? Are they all the same ? Are *individual souls* associated with other people ? Of course not.
If it holds one consciousness, does it "hold" someone else's consciousness ?
Therefore to speak or ask a question concerning a state or phase transition ("going to heaven") of INDIVIDUAL souls, which requires TIME to complete the transition, is not a category error at all.
"Immaterial" in this instance is meaningless and not defined. All it means is "it's a nothing".
The following 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post:
  • Mathilda, brunumb, Chas
Reply
#59

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 04:56 PM)SteveII Wrote: Since the soul is immaterial (non physical), any discussion about physically detecting it is misguided (a category error). 'Existence' certainly does not mean the same thing as 'material.'  

You mean like how we can't detect electricity or light or magnetic fields or gravity?
The following 3 users Like Mathilda's post:
  • skyking, airportkid, Chas
Reply
#60

Does the soul exist?
(01-08-2020, 01:39 PM)Mathilda Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 04:44 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Drich or Ditch or Drip or whatever the hell his name is, keeps bringing this sillyness up in his posts. So a few questions.

If a soul exists and can travel somewhere in the afterlife how does it do this?
If a soul exists it must be made of material stuff.  What is this stuff?
If a soul exists and is part of the brain, which is a natural substance that makes material things in the brain which in turn can be measured by neurological equipment, why do scientist never see a "soul"? 
If the soul is the same thing as the brain, the brain dies after death, since the brain is reliant on neurological functions to be viable how does this soul survive brain death?

Here's another thing, one hundred trillion neutrinos pass through the human body each second.   Scientists can measure neutrinos, it's not easy but they can.  Why can scientist find and measure a subatomic particle so small it can pass through the human body but they never find a soul?  

A few more questions for those that believe in the existence of a soul:

What is a soul? (e.g. Does it merely consist of memories or is it also conscious?)
If we have a soul then why do we need neurons?
Why do our mental abilities get affected as our neurons are affected (e.g. consumption of alcohol, drugs, anesthetic, brain damage etc)
How does a soul maintain its coherence without the use of matter?
What power source is used to stop a soul degrading due to the second law of Thermodynamics?
Can souls be theoretically harvested as an energy source?
Why can't we build weapons to disrupt communication between a soul and the body? After all there needs to be some materialistic connection between the two.

Your brain is the intersection between the immaterial soul (which contains your mind) and the material world. Damage or impairment of your brain is not damage or impairment of your soul because they are not the same thing. Obviously, your mind can be affected by damage to the physical brain (bad input) and your mind may be impaired as long as it has to rely on the damaged brain for input.

Given that the soul is immaterial, it survives independent of this universe because it does not depend on this universe for its existence. The Second Law of Thermodynamics does not apply to it.
Reply
#61

Does the soul exist?
There is no EVIDENCE of souls, nor has any been presented.
Assertions are not evidence.
The question of HOW this (supposed) "intersection" works, (no evidence for that has ever been presented) is not even addressed.
How does "immaterial" *intersect* with material ? LOL. They don't. There is NOT ONE instance known. It's meaningless.

Talking about that for which there is no evidence is of the same value as talking about whether Lord Voldemort intersects with this world. It's nothing but woo.
"Minds" are damaged when there is physical damage. There is no evidence for any further "layer''.
Are human "souls" already in heaven when people are alive ? LOL They TRANSITION ... and by definition a change occurs (according to religionists) and changes take TIME.
Their own "immaterial" state is refuted by their own theology/woo.
The following 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post:
  • brunumb
Reply
#62

Does the soul exist?
(01-08-2020, 01:59 PM)Mathilda Wrote: It's the modern day equivalent of thinking that a photograph traps your soul in a bit of paper.

Australian Aboriginals believe that today.  It's bad for them to view photographs or films of
aborigines who've died—whether good or bad people—as one may steal their spirit or be
inculcated with it.  Australian film and TV networks will show a warning to guard against
this in advance of broadcasts depicting deceased aborigines.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
The following 1 user Likes SYZ's post:
  • Mathilda
Reply
#63

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 05:07 PM)Mathilda Wrote:
(01-09-2020, 04:56 PM)SteveII Wrote: Since the soul is immaterial (non physical), any discussion about physically detecting it is misguided (a category error). 'Existence' certainly does not mean the same thing as 'material.'  

You mean like how we can't detect electricity or light or magnetic fields or gravity?

Are you suggesting that those things fall under the definition of immaterial?

Immaterial is a metaphysical concept and is just a category of things that do not have physical properties.
Reply
#64

Does the soul exist?
Like phlogiston for example.
Reply
#65

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 05:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: There is no evidence for any of SteveII's assertions. His beliefs are irrelevant.

The question pertained to what the belief is. There is a difference between not knowing another's belief and disagreeing with it.

Quote:The faculties which he names are 100 % emergent from known physical processes, which when they are physically damaged, (stroke, disease, trauma, tumors) are impaired by SPECIFIC function, correlated to SPECIFIC physical location. Neurology, Neurosurgery and science can predict which faculty will be impaired by the physical location of brain injury. The concept of "soul" is outdated and an ancient notion which may have served once. It no longer has any usefulness or meaning with Neuro-science at the level it is today.

That consciousness is emergent from known physical processes is not only an assertion, it is obviously false. We do not understand how consciousness works. Claiming it must be emergent therefore it is emergent is a metaphysical claim--not a scientific claim.

Quote:The use of the concept of "category error here" is an error, and itself false.
Quote:The soul holds our consciousness (it is not equal to our consciousness), which includes our intellect and volition which allow us to be self-reflective and capable of self determination.

..... is a LOCAL concept. Are souls non-local ? Are they all the same ? Are *individual souls* associated with other people ? Of course not.
If it holds one consciousness, does it "hold" someone else's consciousness ? Therefore to speak or ask a question concerning a state or phase transition ("going to heaven") of INDIVIDUAL souls, which requires TIME to complete the transition, is not a category error at all.
"Immaterial" in this instance is meaningless and not defined. All it means is "it's a nothing".

Immaterial is a metaphysical concept and is just a category of things that do not have physical properties. The fact that a soul relies on a body to interact with the world does not change its properties.
Reply
#66

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 04:56 PM)SteveII Wrote: The soul is an immaterialsubstance...

How then can you know a fact it exists? (At any rate, I think you actually mean "incorporeal".)

Quote:I believe like J. P. Moreland that there are various type of souls--from a basic animal with simple reasoning abilities to Chimpanzees with richer capabilities, to humans with even more, to God at the pinnacle.

Oh dear. JP Moreland with his phony doctorate from Biola "university"? The man who seriously
believes that amoebas have souls LOL?  Moreland is one of WL Craig's mates, so that says a lot.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
The following 2 users Like SYZ's post:
  • skyking, brunumb
Reply
#67

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 05:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: There is no EVIDENCE of souls, nor has any been presented.
Assertions are not evidence.
The question of HOW this (supposed) "intersection" works, (no evidence for that has ever been presented) is not even addressed.
How does "immaterial" *intersect* with material ? LOL. They don't. There is NOT ONE instance known. It's meaningless.

Talking about that for which there is no evidence is of the same value as talking about whether Lord Voldemort intersects with this world. It's nothing but woo.
"Minds" are damaged when there is physical damage. There is no evidence for any further "layer''.
Are human "souls" already in heaven when people are alive ? LOL They TRANSITION ... and by definition a change occurs (according to religionists) and changes take TIME.
Their own "immaterial" state is refuted by their own theology/woo.

I wasn't asked for evidence. I was asked what is the belief.
Reply
#68

Does the soul exist?
The notion that there are "things" which have no physical properties is meaningless.
By definition, a "thing" is one thing, and not another thing.
Therefore it has a "boundary". A "thing" is an object.
thing
/THiNG/
noun
noun: thing; plural noun: things; noun: the thing; noun: one's thing; plural noun: one's things
1. an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.
"look at that metal rail thing over there"
2.
an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being.
"I'm not a thing, not a work of art to be cherished"

There are no metaphysical "things" by definition. If it's a "thing" it's not metaphysical.
Reply
#69

Does the soul exist?
James Porter Moreland, better known as J. P. Moreland, is an American philosopher, theologian, and Christian apologist. He currently serves as a Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University in La Mirada, California.

LMAO

What IS a category error, is that a "distinguished philosopher" actually has anything to do with Biola.
Reply
#70

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 05:07 PM)Mathilda Wrote: ... You mean like how we can't detect electricity or light or magnetic fields or gravity ...?

This is an excellent point, this reminder that some effects appear to have no material component.  But their effects are observable, have been categorized, and thus far, can account for all phenomena observed to the extent that such concepts as "ether" and "phlogiston" have been discarded.  No "soul" sits as a placeholder in science to account for anything still not yet fully understood.  That, to my mind, is the most definitive aspect:  science hasn't found a need for "placeholders" - that while there remains (and always will remain) phenomena not yet understood, science has with every explanation thus far gleaned not had to invoke elements external to reality.
The following 1 user Likes airportkid's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus
Reply
#71

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 06:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: The notion that there are "things" which have no physical properties is meaningless.
By definition, a "thing" is one thing, and not another thing.
Therefore it has a "boundary". A "thing" is an object.
thing
/THiNG/
noun
noun: thing; plural noun: things; noun: the thing; noun: one's thing; plural noun: one's things
1. an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.
"look at that metal rail thing over there"
2.
an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being.
"I'm not a thing, not a work of art to be cherished"

There are no metaphysical "things" by definition. If it's a "thing" it's not metaphysical.

You either are simply asserting that only physical objects exist, or you are redefining 'thing'. In either case, you are wrong.

Is the number 4 a "thing"?
Is a math equation a "thing"?
Is a moral system a "thing"?
Is an idea a "thing"?
Is a character in a fictional novel a "thing"?
Is the concept 'a then b, a therefore b' a "thing"?
Is a symphony a "thing"?
Is the concept of causation a "thing"?

..of course they are. These things exist in a different way then an apple exists. A soul exists in a different way than an apple exists.
Reply
#72

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 06:43 PM)SteveII Wrote: You either are simply asserting that only physical objects exist, or you are redefining 'thing'.  In either case, you are wrong.

I am not asserting only physical things exist.
You forgot to say why you think I'm wrong. 

Quote:These things exist in a different way then an apple exists. A soul exists in a different way than an apple exists.

The things you listed,  each in there own way, CAN BE DEMONSTRATED.
Your soul concept cannot. The IDEA of a soul may exist. An actual soul, the ONLY property which you can name is "immaterial",
is NOT the same as all the other things you named. It's YOU that just made the category error.
Is your soul the same as someone else's soul ? If not, demonstrate IN WHAT WAY your assertions are true, and in what way they are different.
BTW, while you're at it, how about you define what you mean when you claim something "exists".
Reply
#73

Does the soul exist?
Since "soul" is not a Biblical concept (the OT Hebrews, for most of their history did not have the present day concept of "soul" (or immortality)), it is interesting to see how the concept developed over the centuries, and what it meant to the ancient Greeks, and the steps along the way.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
Reply
#74

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 06:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(01-09-2020, 06:43 PM)SteveII Wrote: You either are simply asserting that only physical objects exist, or you are redefining 'thing'.  In either case, you are wrong.

I am not asserting only physical things exist.
You forgot to say why you think I'm wrong. 

Quote:These things exist in a different way then an apple exists. A soul exists in a different way than an apple exists.

The things you listed,  each in there own way, CAN BE DEMONSTRATED.
Your soul concept cannot. The IDEA of a soul may exist. An actual soul, the ONLY property which you can name is "immaterial",
is NOT the same as all the other things you named. It's YOU that just made the category error.
Is your soul the same as someone else's soul ? If not, demonstrate IN WHAT WAY your assertions are true.
BTW, while you're at it, how about you define what you mean when you claim something "exists".

My list was to prove there are other categories of things that are not physical after you claimed that "The notion that there are "things" which have no physical properties is meaningless."

I did not claim that the list was like a soul.

A belief in a soul is not a result of experiments. It is a result of one's worldview--which can be arrived at through personal experience or philosophical and religious pursuits. The soul has explanatory power. I don't care if you don't agree. This is important: I am not making an argument that it exists BECAUSE I do not believe it exists for reasons that are available to you. As I repeated twice now, I am explaining the belief.

ex·ist
/iɡˈzist/
verb
1. have objective reality or being.

Your counter argument is the problem. In a nutshell, this is your argument:

1. Only things that can be demonstrated to exist, do exist.
2. A soul cannot be demonstrated to exist.
3. Therefore a soul does not exist.

Number 1 is obviously false. You have no idea what may also exist in all of reality that we do not/cannot have access to. It is a huge metaphysical claim.
Reply
#75

Does the soul exist?
(01-09-2020, 07:23 PM)SteveII Wrote: I did not claim that the list was like a soul.

Then why did you list them ?

Quote:A belief in a soul is not a result of experiments. It is a result of one's worldview--which can be arrived at through personal experience or philosophical pursuits. The soul has explanatory power. I don't care if you don't agree. This is important: I am not making an argument that it exists BECAUSE I do not believe it exists for reasons that are available to you. As I repeated twice now, I am explaining the belief.

We all know what the belief is. No one says beliefs are the result of experiment.
One could literally arrive at ANYTHING through "personal experience and philosophical pursuits". We all know how THAT can go off the rails.
Positing those as valid reasons to say something, which cannot be demonstrated exists, is not true.
What else have these pursuits and "world-view" shown you to be actually real, which cannot be shown to be true

Quote:ex·ist
/iɡˈzist/
verb
1. have objective reality or being.

Great. Post the "objective" evidence for the objective reality of gods or souls.

Quote:Your counter argument is the problem. In a nutshell, this is your argument:

1. Only things that can be demonstrated to exist, do exist.
2. A soul cannot be demonstrated to exist.
3. Therefore a soul does not exist.

Number 1 is obviously false. Did quantum particles exist in 1492? Without 1, all you have is an assertion, not an argument.

Nice try. That's NOT my argument.
YOU are claiming there are souls. I did not.

Everything you listed can be shown to exist. Your list is a "no brainer", and is not relevant to the soul topic.
No one has ever seen a soul, detected a soul, or even knows EXACTLY what you mean when you talk about one ... except you claim "something is immaterial" (yet has a boundary of some sort, as it's not someone else's soul).

Quantum particles did exist, but they could not be DEMONSTRATED until recently,
however neither did anyone go around CLAIMING they did in 1492, thus you analogy is false and fails. You falsify it yourself.  

You are asserting there are souls. You tell us you believe in them. Unsupported assertions.
That's nice. Knock yourself out.

I have come to believe through experience and study :
there are Pink Sparkly Unicorns, .... and that has as much truth value as your "soul" idea, BY YOUR STANDARDS.

BTW, she didn't ask you what your beliefs are. She asked how it made sense if it was immaterial / supernatural.
Then you replied "A soul IS ...". You didn't say "I believe (my beliefs are) a soul is". You asserted what a soul is.
Then you tried to change what anyone can see happened here.
The following 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post:
  • brunumb
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)