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Does the soul exist?
#1

Does the soul exist?
Drich or Ditch or Drip or whatever the hell his name is, keeps bringing this sillyness up in his posts. So a few questions.

If a soul exists and can travel somewhere in the afterlife how does it do this?
If a soul exists it must be made of material stuff.  What is this stuff?
If a soul exists and is part of the brain, which is a natural substance that makes material things in the brain which in turn can be measured by neurological equipment, why do scientist never see a "soul"? 
If the soul is the same thing as the brain, the brain dies after death, since the brain is reliant on neurological functions to be viable how does this soul survive brain death?

Here's another thing, one hundred trillion neutrinos pass through the human body each second.   Scientists can measure neutrinos, it's not easy but they can.  Why can scientist find and measure a subatomic particle so small it can pass through the human body but they never find a soul?  

Ahhh, says theists.  "It's invisible".    if the soul isn't a material substance and is more of an invisible supernatural thing then I may as well lay claim to the Invisible Magical Donut orbiting Jupiter.    Whistling
                                                         T4618
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#2

Does the soul exist?
The soul concept is a reification of the abstract information processing capacity of a physical brain.

According to the Cambridge Dictionary, "reification" is "the act of changing something abstract (= existing as a thought or idea) into something real."

The soul concept is based on the false dichotomy of dualism: "The mind is obviously something different than the brain, so it must be a separate substance." There is another, more likely option, that the mind is an emergent property of an operating brain.
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#3

Does the soul exist?
Alan pretty much nailed it ... but I know there is soul.
Soul food, soul music, soul brothers and sisters.
Dance
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#4

Does the soul exist?
I run across this soul thing from theists all the time.  Drives me nuts.  I wonder if theists define the "spirit" of a person differently than a  "soul".  They toss these words around so easily but make darned sure the meaning of these words remain mysterious,  that way they don't have to actually prove souls and spirits exist.
                                                         T4618
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#5

Does the soul exist?
Don’t want one.  

Gospel Jesus doesn’t present anything like the soul concept christians eventually developed.
god, ugh
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#6

Does the soul exist?
I could go for some soul food!  Angel
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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#7

Does the soul exist?
[Image: icon_quote.jpg]DFT:
If a soul exists and can travel somewhere in the afterlife how does it do this?

Magic

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]DFT:
If a soul exists it must be made of material stuff.  What is this stuff?

Magic

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]DFT:
If a soul exists and is part of the brain, which is a natural substance that makes material things in the brain which in turn can be measured by neurological equipment, why do scientists never see a "soul"?

Magic can not be measured by mere mortal means

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]DFT:
If the soul is the same thing as the brain, the brain dies after death, since the brain is reliant on neurological functions to be viable how does this soul survive brain death?

Magic

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]DFT:
Here's another thing, one hundred trillion neutrinos pass through the human body each second.   Scientists can measure neutrinos, it's not easy but they can.  Why can scientists find and measure a subatomic particle so small it can pass through the human body but they never find a soul?

All souls must graduate Summa Cum Laude from Ninja Soul Academy before they are permitted access to the earthly realm.
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#8

Does the soul exist?
From Aristotle, De Anima, On The Soul, Aristotle uses "soul" as a black box term for the mind's capabilities. Aristotle of course knew no biochemistry, about cells, synapses or anatomy of the brain or anything about how it worked. So Aristotle had to speak in very theoretical terms about mind and it's obvious capabilities, which was subsumed under the term soul. Xenophanes was the first known philosopher to claim a God exists that was without material body as we understand the term.

One god is greatest among gods and men,
Not at all like mortals in body or in thought. (frag. 23)
…whole he sees, whole he thinks, and whole he hears. (frag. 24)
…but completely without toil he shakes all things by the thought of his mind. (frag. 25)
…always he abides in the same place, not moving at all,
nor is it seemly for him to travel to different places at different times. (frag. 26)
- Xenophanes

The problem with the more religious ideas about soul and spirit is that there is no evidence such things exist, and no way to investigate such claims. As far as I can see, such lack of any way to demonstrate the truth of claims of a soul in a religious sense makes the entire idea of a soul doubtful. This has not stopped religious writers from writing thick books about the nothing that is "soul". The more we learn about brains and the connections of material brains to mind, the less the idea of a soul seems to make any sense. Theism's biggest difficulty is utter lack of anyway to demonstrate soul exists or how it influences matter. Other than empty assertions.

In the 19th century, attempts to demonstrate soul spawned parapsychology which was supposed to demonstrate that soul existed, but over nearly two centuries has not been able to do so. Parapsychology has only been able to muddy the waters and demonstrate how not to do science.
And my little boy named my truck "Giddyup gah gah gah!"  Isn't he cute?  He's only eight.



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#9

Does the soul exist?
One of the interesting things is, that the culture which created/assembled the Bible, did not believe in "souls".
"For dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return". The *shades* of the dead went to Sheol ... all of them. The good and the bad.
The animating factor was "breath". They did not go to "heaven". Immortality in Hebrew culture consisted in having male heirs to the family line. That changed somewhat, after the "Exile" ... but it was due to their coming into contact with outside ideas from other cultures. At the turn of the 1st millennium, one of the major Jewish sects did not buy into personal immortality. The concept of "immortality" in ancient cultures, and how that changed over time, is pretty complex, (and the subject of many PhD dissertations).

The god of the underworld (death) in Canaanite religions (including the Hebrews) was Mot. Some think that Passover got it's start in the Spring ritual where Mot eats Baal, "like a lamb". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mot_(god) Mot is mentioned in Hosea, Jeremiah, Job and Habakkuk as the god that Yahweh (a threat) can send Israel (Judah) to, if they're bad.

In "The Trouble with Resurrection", NT (seminary) scholar Dr. BB Scott talks about all the various mis-translations and incorrect assumptions that have resulted in the Christian interpretation of Hebrew "death" (and therefore *soul* conceptions) ... and when they are set right, the picture is far more logical, and culturally consistent that what is preached by Christianity.
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#10

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 09:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: One of the interesting things is, that the culture which created/assembled the Bible, did not believe in "souls".
"For dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return". The *shades* of the dead went to Sheol ... all of them. The good and the bad.
They did not go to "heaven". Immortality in Hebrew culture consisted in having male heirs to the family line. That changed somewhat, after the "Exile" ... but it was due to their coming into contact with outside ideas from other cultures. At the turn of the 1st millennium, one of the major Jewish sects did not buy into personal immortality. The concept of "immortality" in ancient cultures, and how that changed over time, is pretty complex, (and the subject of many PhD dissertations).

The god of the underworld (death) in Canaanite religions (including the Hebrews) was Mot. Some think that Passover got it's start in the Spring ritual where Mot eats Baal, "like a lamb". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mot_(god) Mot is mentioned in Hosea, Jeremiah, Job and Habakkuk as the god that Yahweh (a threat) can send Israel (Judah) to, if they're bad.

In "The Trouble with Resurrection", NT (seminary) scholar Dr. BB Scott talks about all the various mis-translations and incorrect assumptions that have resulted in the Christian interpretation of Hebrew "death" (and therefore *soul* conceptions) ... and when they are set right, the picture is far more logical, and culturally consistent that what is preached by Christianity.

Yup. Hard for us to grasp, but in 'ancient  times', many religions  had no notion of a soul or an afterlife. People worshipped and sacrificed to their gods hoping to placate them or gain favours. 


There is no concept of an eternal hell in Judaism . That was invented by the Christians., beginning with the greek hades, the home of all of the dead,   adding the god Pan, etc, ect  ---On close scrutiny, original ideas are a bit thin on the ground in Christianity.   
  
The dominance of the religion which came to be known as Christianity  was achieved through brute force, which was used with gay abandon from the fourth century, for over a thousand years.   

Your claim about contact with other cultures I think is a good one and very reasonable .  It may well have been the case.  I don't know enough about the topic to have an opinion.
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#11

Does the soul exist?
The bizarre notion of a human "soul" is absurd, in my opinion. Even the bible-bashers can't define it. Why should I bother?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#12

Does the soul exist?
OP: It's what you feel in your heart. Angel
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#13

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 09:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: One of the interesting things is, that the culture which created/assembled the Bible, did not believe in "souls".
"For dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return". The *shades* of the dead went to Sheol ... all of them. The good and the bad.
The animating factor was "breath". They did not go to "heaven". Immortality in Hebrew culture consisted in having male heirs to the family line. That changed somewhat, after the "Exile" ... but it was due to their coming into contact with outside ideas from other cultures. At the turn of the 1st millennium, one of the major Jewish sects did not buy into personal immortality. The concept of "immortality" in ancient cultures, and how that changed over time, is pretty complex, (and the subject of many PhD dissertations).

The god of the underworld (death) in Canaanite religions (including the Hebrews) was Mot. Some think that Passover got it's start in the Spring ritual where Mot eats Baal, "like a lamb". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mot_(god) Mot is mentioned in Hosea, Jeremiah, Job and Habakkuk as the god that Yahweh (a threat) can send Israel (Judah) to, if they're bad.

In "The Trouble with Resurrection", NT (seminary) scholar Dr. BB Scott talks about all the various mis-translations and incorrect assumptions that have resulted in the Christian interpretation of Hebrew "death" (and therefore *soul* conceptions) ... and when they are set right, the picture is far more logical, and culturally consistent that what is preached by Christianity.

Funny because a person's spirit and soul is a mainstay of Christianity these days.  And it's not just a Christian thing but all sorts of New Age beliefs incorporate souls and spirits.    I hear it in Yoga a lot.
                                                         T4618
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#14

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 11:40 PM)brewerb Wrote: OP: It's what you feel in your heart. Angel

You're right.  I feel a slight burning sensation in my heart.  I think it was the spicy burrito I had for lunch.
                                                         T4618
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#15

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 11:08 PM)SYZ Wrote: The bizarre notion of a human "soul" is absurd, in my opinion.  Even the bible-bashers can't define it.  Why should I bother?

 Your opinion of absurdity makes no difference about its truth or falsity .(argument from ignorance) 

I've always thought the notion of an immortal soul is quite rational , even if the  reasoning is flawed, like virtually  all supernatural beliefs.  Human beings have the built in ability to believe (or disbelieve)  literally anything. All  human beliefs have their own own internal reasoning , no matter how flawed they may seem, and no matter the level of cognitive dissonance which they may indicate .

I'm more interested in the 'why '(the reason) than the "what" (the bald facts )  

The 'quaint customs and beliefs'  school of anthropology  is based on the book "The Golden Bough" by Sir Janes George Frazer , first  printed  in 1890. It remains a common perception in the broader community. Especially noticeable on Youtube . I'm sure it's very gratifying, and helps impart a feeling of superiority.  

That smug sense of superiority  is common amongst  atheists, including myself.  Hard not  to feel superior when confronted with some of believers  seen here.  In my experience, they are atypical, as are the atheists on forums such as this.
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#16

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 11:51 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 11:40 PM)brewerb Wrote: OP: It's what you feel in your heart. Angel

You're right.  I feel a slight burning sensation in my heart.  I think it was the spicy burrito I had for lunch.

So then, if you take a "tums", your soul goes away. 
Hmmm.  Angel

Edit
Quote:If a soul exists and can travel somewhere in the afterlife how does it do this?

I heard they take the soul-train, but possibly they can call an Uber.
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#17

Does the soul exist?
OF COURSE SOUL EXISTS!

I give you the Empress of Soul

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#18

Does the soul exist?
I guess I look at "soul" as "mind" or personality, an emergent property of a complex brain. It's not hard to understand why ancients who didn't understand the importance of the brain to thinking -- and thus to "mind" or personality -- to assume an incorporeal definition.

We've inherited this outlook from them, and as a result still struggle with reconciling our own findings with the mental luggage we carry about consciousness and self.
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#19

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 11:51 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 11:40 PM)brewerb Wrote: OP: It's what you feel in your heart. Angel

You're right.  I feel a slight burning sensation in my heart.  I think it was the spicy burrito I had for lunch.

Ah oh Indy. Girl_devil
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#20

Does the soul exist?
Without a protagonist to move the conversation forward, I'm not sure what the point of this is.
[Image: giant%20meteor%202020.jpg]
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#21

Does the soul exist?
(01-05-2020, 04:44 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Does the soul exist?

No.

Next question  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
#BeExcellentToEachOther
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#22

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 12:05 AM)grympy Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 11:08 PM)SYZ Wrote: The bizarre notion of a human "soul" is absurd, in my opinion...

Your opinion of absurdity makes no difference about its truth or falsity. (argument from ignorance)

Nope, my claim is not and argument from ignorance at all.  (An argumentum ad ignorantiam  points
to "a lack of evidence to the contrary".  

Apparently you're happy to accept that a/the human "soul" may  in fact exist—despite a total lack of any
empirical evidence supporting or disputing that notion?  And on that basis—yes, I do  claim it's absurd to
believe it exists.

It's also absurd to claim the Earth is flat, that leprechauns exist, or paranormal events occur.  By saying
they're absurd, I'm neither attempting to prove or disprove them.  Each is simply a statement of fact.  
Just as there is no such thing as a soul is a statement of fact.

Quote:I've always thought the notion of an immortal soul is quite rational...

Nope.  Totally irrational.

Quote:That smug sense of superiority is common amongst atheists, including myself...
 
You may feel smugly superior, as you're entitled to of course, but I share none of that smugness.
You need to be very careful when making rash generalisations about atheists—or any other social
grouping for that matter.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#23

Does the soul exist?
(01-06-2020, 08:19 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:
(01-05-2020, 04:44 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Does the soul exist?

No.

Next question.

Best response so far.       Thumbs Up
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#24

Does the soul exist?
For the physical person to exist, it must first exist as an idea.  Thus, a soul is the ideal form of an individual.  I use this definition because of the role played by Hellenism in the development of Christianity.

Since the idea is permanent, it can be reborn to the physical world again and again, given such a process exists.  Perhaps the contemporary way to define a soul is our genetic code and consciousness, all the information necessary to clone and duplicate the mind and body of an individual. 

But yeah, Christians believe we have a ghost living inside of us that upon death rises from the body and joins the other ghosts.  That would sound appealing if Valkyries escorted my ghost to the great hall in Valhalla.  Not so much if Heaven is one endless Baptist wedding reception.  Though a Catholic reception would be alright.
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#25

Does the soul exist?
Without a soul the Church couldn't sell salvation for the soul. Therefore the soul exists.
  [Image: pirates.gif] Dog  
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