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"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
#26

"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
(01-03-2020, 01:50 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: It doesn't have to be always true of every individual without exception to be an accurate generalization.  Something can still be true without you or I liking it and of course I find it lamentable.  Jealousy, aggressiveness, selfishness, and competitiveness are all I would think undeniable aspects of human, especially male, nature.  They evolved alongside traits we rightly value and celebrate, like love, cooperativeness, compassion, and the capacity to think and reason.

Sorry if I sounded condescending in that but I was wondering.  You know how hard it is to pick up nuance in print.  Thanks for the clarification.  I don't feel as fatalistic about it as you seem to.  But I may more pessimistic about the environment than you.  Guess that makes us even?
"Talk nonsense, but talk your own nonsense, and I'll kiss you for it. To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's. 
F. D.
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#27

"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
(01-03-2020, 02:48 PM)Mark Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 01:50 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: It doesn't have to be always true of every individual without exception to be an accurate generalization.  Something can still be true without you or I liking it and of course I find it lamentable.  Jealousy, aggressiveness, selfishness, and competitiveness are all I would think undeniable aspects of human, especially male, nature.  They evolved alongside traits we rightly value and celebrate, like love, cooperativeness, compassion, and the capacity to think and reason.

Sorry if I sounded condescending in that but I was wondering.  You know how hard it is to pick up nuance in print.  Thanks for the clarification.  I don't feel as fatalistic about it as you seem to.  But I may more pessimistic about the environment than you.  Guess that makes us even?

No offense taken, no prob.  I don't know if I'm fatalistic about human nature, I think the overall arc of history is upwards (slow, and with bumps!) into the light and out of darkness.  I'm just a "proceed with caution" kind of guy.  Great Leaps Forward can lead to radical shifts backwards.
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#28

"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
(01-03-2020, 02:02 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 11:31 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(01-01-2020, 04:03 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: The male will to dominate, to be Alpha.  Hell, put five guys in a room, they will sort out a pecking order.
You do know that there is an abundance of matriachal societies in human history? Particularly in early human history?
Human nature is not just the male will to be Alpha. Looking at archaeological evidence it seems that matriachy rather was the first result of human nature in terms of forming societies.

How early and how sure are you?  How do you know?

It seems from the neolithic to the minoans at least. However there seems to be still a discussion about carious cultures (since archaeological evidence is not always conclusive, particularly for the oldest cultures. Ever if we take a conservative PoV that we cant neither prove that male nor female dominance was prevalent at any time, there are still ("worst case" for my argument) enough more modern matriarchies that refute the sole dominance of "male alphas". Its more complex than that.
cetero censeo religionem esse delendam 
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#29

"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
(01-03-2020, 01:55 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 11:31 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(01-01-2020, 04:03 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: The male will to dominate, to be Alpha.  Hell, put five guys in a room, they will sort out a pecking order.
You do know that there is an abundance of matriachal societies in human history? Particularly in early human history?
Human nature is not just the male will to be Alpha. Looking at archaeological evidence it seems that matriachy rather was the first result of human nature in terms of forming societies.

Where did I say human nature is only the will to be Alpha?  Why do you all pull this kind of shit?  Very frustrating.
Your response to the "human nature" argument was: "male will to dominate". PERIOD
No mentioning of female will to dominate or individual human will to dominate , nor "male will to dominate for example".
cetero censeo religionem esse delendam 
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#30

"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
A certain degree of collectivism is necessary to properly empower individualism. That's what them dang libertarians don't get.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#31

"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
(01-03-2020, 04:31 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 01:55 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 11:31 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: You do know that there is an abundance of matriachal societies in human history? Particularly in early human history?
Human nature is not just the male will to be Alpha. Looking at archaeological evidence it seems that matriachy rather was the first result of human nature in terms of forming societies.

Where did I say human nature is only the will to be Alpha?  Why do you all pull this kind of shit?  Very frustrating.
Your response to the "human nature" argument was: "male will to dominate". PERIOD
No mentioning of female will to dominate or individual human will to dominate , nor "male will to dominate for example".

GN was asking me about human nature in relation to my previous post, meaning what was it about human nature that I thought might make cooperative societies problematic- so I was addressing only those aspects of human (mainly male) nature.  But I still shouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that you were just trying to "gotcha" me.
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#32

"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
(01-03-2020, 04:34 PM)Aegon Wrote: A certain degree of collectivism is necessary to properly empower individualism. That's what them dang libertarians don't get.

And individual freedom can advance the collective.  No need to pick a side and marry it.
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#33

"Individualism" vs. "Collectivism"
(01-03-2020, 10:12 PM)Ranjr Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 04:34 PM)Aegon Wrote: A certain degree of collectivism is necessary to properly empower individualism. That's what them dang libertarians don't get.

And individual freedom can advance the collective.  No need to pick a side and marry it.

Why didn't you say that before I bought the ring?
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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