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Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
#26

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 04:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: And they were all basically working in isolation, in their kitchens, cooking up their own recipes of Christianity. 
When one jettisons the view / expectation that somehow there ought to be a a single/orthodox view, (how could there be, when they didn't talk to each other, regularly) you're free to see what they might really be saying.

Yes, this is a point that's not made often enough.

I've often thought that even if there is an original manuscript for the gospels, and they were a good-faith attempt to collect the oral and written traditions to that point, there would have been a marked tendency for the story to diverge and get embellished by different actors. Even in the hypothetical period of a few years after the crucifixion, someone living what today would be a 15 minute drive from Jerusalem could spin any random yarn about the events and it would be damn hard to verify that story against a dozen other conflicting ones and figure out which was accurate -- or even least inaccurate. People tend to not factor in the difficulty of travel, the total lack of comm tech including widespread literacy and libraries and things of that nature. Everything was hearsay and it would have been VERY hard to discern what was real and what was complete bullshit, even if you were a person of modern enlightenment with a time machine and viewing it from that perspective -- much less if you were an uneducated, illiterate artisan or goatherd.

Now add a few decades onto that and the gradual geographic spread of the sect so that now you might be a Christian who is a few hundred miles from Jerusalem, and it doesn't make matters better. By now the relative handful of actual eyewitnesses (real or claimed) would be doddering oldsters, too.

So the fact that the NT authors were operating mostly autonomously and not regularly talking to each other is a HUGE factor, even assuming they were laboring away in the 1st century.

In addition, with the (very) partial exception of Luke, the NT authors don't describe their methodology or source materials like a modern historian would. Or even really their intent. They just (mostly implicitly) assert that they are conveying truthfully actual events but with zero citations or substantiation of any kind. The tone of all the NT books is just "because I said so". Even the questionable rigors of modern historians were unknown to that era. It was all partisan scribblings pushing a particular "take" on what (allegedly) happened.
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#27

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 04:41 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-02-2020, 04:11 PM)mordant Wrote:
(01-02-2020, 03:46 PM)Minimalist Wrote: If you think about it with a slightly open mind those late additions reflect the need for xtian propagandists to fill in the blanks in the conversion of their godboy from a space cadet to an actual human.

Space cadet gods who live in outer space - which is what "paul" describes - and who then drop from the sky into Capernaum - which is what early xtian writers tell us that Marcion claimed - do not need birth or infancy stories.  It is only when the process of euhemerization begins to take a legend and flesh it out with an actual biography that people would even begin to ask questions about a god's "birth" and childhood.  And xtian propagandists were quick to fill the gaps in their history.  Goebbels would have loved those guys.

Paul doesn't exclusively describe a celestial Jesus, but the few bolted-on references to Jesus as a more flesh and blood persona have a creedal feel to them, and it isn't impossible or even unlikely that those mentions were retrofitted later to semi-harmonize Paul with the gospels, either.

There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien...58681.html
Quote:Researchers at Hadassah Medical Centre, linked to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, have scanned the brain of a man during a seizure, while he also had visions of God and noticed a surge of activity in the organ’s frontal lobe, which is linked to a belief people are interacting with a deity.

Quote:“While lying in bed, the patient abruptly ‘froze’ and stared at the ceiling for several minutes, stating later that he felt that God was approaching him. He then started chanting prayers quietly, looked for his kippa and put it on his head, chanting the prayers more excessively.”

It's believed that Paul had what was called in ancient times  "the falling down disease".   He wrote about an inability to not "stand proud" which in those days meant not able to stand up and his visions closely resemble people who have temporal lobe 
epilepsy.  Epilpesy has been connected to Paul for centuries.  Epilpesy is frequently called St Paul's Disease.  But wouldn't you know, when this report came out churches got all pushed out of shape.  

  https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/50/6/659.full.pdf

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." Corinthians 12: 7 - 9

Great

"Ask anything in my name, it will be given thee" John 13;14

Never mind
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#28

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Quote:There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god. 




Of course that would require the tales recounted in the Book of Acts to be true.  That's a leap I am not prepared to make.  Acts is nothing but late propaganda.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#29

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 04:54 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god. 

Of course that would require the tales recounted in the Book of Acts to be true.  That's a leap I am not prepared to make.  Acts is nothing but late propaganda.

They also claimed he changed his name from Saul to Paul, (which in Latin means "small"). 
He could have been of short stature, and that also would make the "stand' thing make sense, (but it doesn't make sense if he's asking to have "the thorn removed", as even he would have known that's not about to change. The New Agey thing says he was "gay" ... and that's what it's about. They did not know about human sexuality, so that's a crock.
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#30

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Quote:They also claimed he changed his name from Saul to Paul, (which in Latin means "small").

"Paulus" sometimes spelled with two "Ls" was an almost exclusive cognomen of the Aemilian clan.  They were an ancient Roman patrician family - Lucius Aemilius Paulus got himself killed as consul at the Battle of Cannae and the family remained prominent down to the reign of Augustus.  One does wonder why they would go all the way to Palestine to add some smelly jew to their ranks?

Or, is that just more bullshit?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#31

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 05:29 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:They also claimed he changed his name from Saul to Paul, (which in Latin means "small").

"Paulus" sometimes spelled with two "Ls" was an almost exclusive cognomen of the Aemilian clan.  They were an ancient Roman patrician family - Lucius Aemilius Paulus got himself killed as consul at the Battle of Cannae and the family remained prominent down to the reign of Augustus.  One does wonder why they would go all the way to Palestine to add some smelly jew to their ranks?

Or, is that just more bullshit?

Originally the story is that his name was Saul of Tarsus. I didn't know about the noble Roman family "Paulus". 
If in fact he was related to them, the family in Tarsus would have gone by that name, and there would have been more made of the fact that a noble Roman "sat at the feet of Gamaliel" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel

Yeah no. It's all bullshit.  Big Grin
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#32

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 04:54 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god. 



Of course that would require the tales recounted in the Book of Acts to be true.  That's a leap I am not prepared to make.  Acts is nothing but late propaganda.

How do you figure?  The new testament , including Acts, was written by superstitious people recounting superstitious stuff to sell to other superstitious people.  None of it is true except some of the geography actually exists.  Even at that one of the gospel writers  got some of the Palestinian geography and directions all wrong so I wouldn't put too much stock any new testament claim.
                                                         T4618
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#33

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 04:41 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god.

Diagnosing any neurological or psychological disorder is a challenge even with modern equipment and the patient present in the flesh. Making that sort of diagnosis without the patient present is not recommended by most practitioners. Making these diagnoses on historical and semi-mythical figures is little more than speculation. The paucity of available evidence simply doesn't support any meaningful conclusions.

All we know for certain is that Paul/Saul probably existed and was an early founder of Christianity. He may have had any of a number of medical conditions that would lead him to believe that he was speaking to God. Or none at all. It's entirely possible that he was a hale and healthy true believer, con artist, or both. In the end I doubt that it matters.
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#34

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-03-2020, 02:36 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(01-02-2020, 04:41 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god.

Diagnosing any neurological or psychological disorder is a challenge even with modern equipment and the patient present in the flesh. Making that sort of diagnosis without the patient present is not recommended by most practitioners. Making these diagnoses on historical and semi-mythical figures is little more than speculation. The paucity of available evidence simply doesn't support any meaningful conclusions.

All we know for certain is that Paul/Saul probably existed and was an early founder of Christianity. He may have had any of a number of medical conditions that would lead him to believe that he was speaking to God. Or none at all. It's entirely possible that he was a hale and healthy true believer, con artist, or both. In the end I doubt that it matters.

I agree.  But it's still funny to think that Paul falling down in an epileptic fit was the beginnings of a new religion. LOLOL! I mean, it's like something right out of a Monty Python sketch. It's so utterly ridiculous that it just might be true.   Nod
                                                         T4618
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#35

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-03-2020, 12:39 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-02-2020, 04:54 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god. 



Of course that would require the tales recounted in the Book of Acts to be true.  That's a leap I am not prepared to make.  Acts is nothing but late propaganda.

How do you figure?  The new testament , including Acts, was written by superstitious people recounting superstitious stuff to sell to other superstitious people.  None of it is true except some of the geography actually exists.  Even at that one of the gospel writers  got some of the Palestinian geography and directions all wrong so I wouldn't put too much stock any new testament claim.

Either you mis-read what I wrote or I was insufficiently precise.

The leap I am not prepared to make is that Acts is anything but bullshit.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#36

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
It's too bad Paul never met the Nazarene Jesus, who could have helped him.  "Paul, you just have a little scaring in your hippocampus from oxygen deprivation during an asthma attack as a child.  Here's a bag of Levitracitam I got from the future.  Take one a day."
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#37

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-03-2020, 04:25 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
(01-03-2020, 12:39 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(01-02-2020, 04:54 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Of course that would require the tales recounted in the Book of Acts to be true.  That's a leap I am not prepared to make.  Acts is nothing but late propaganda.

How do you figure?  The new testament , including Acts, was written by superstitious people recounting superstitious stuff to sell to other superstitious people.  None of it is true except some of the geography actually exists.  Even at that one of the gospel writers  got some of the Palestinian geography and directions all wrong so I wouldn't put too much stock any new testament claim.

Either you mis-read what I wrote or I was insufficiently precise.

The leap I am not prepared to make is that Acts is anything but bullshit.

Yup.  One big pile.
                                                         T4618
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#38

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Jesus was no genius, Ranj.  He have "driven out demons" or some such other dumb shit.  Tough on the pigs but then, Jews didn't like pigs.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#39

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-03-2020, 04:15 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Jesus was no genius, Ranj.  He have "driven out demons" or some such other dumb shit.  Tough on the pigs but then, Jews didn't like pigs.

Oh Jesus, not the livestock!
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#40

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-03-2020, 02:36 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(01-02-2020, 04:41 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god.

Diagnosing any neurological or psychological disorder is a challenge even with modern equipment and the patient present in the flesh. Making that sort of diagnosis without the patient present is not recommended by most practitioners. Making these diagnoses on historical and semi-mythical figures is little more than speculation. The paucity of available evidence simply doesn't support any meaningful conclusions.

All we know for certain is that Paul/Saul probably existed and was an early founder of Christianity. He may have had any of a number of medical conditions that would lead him to believe that he was speaking to God. Or none at all. It's entirely possible that he was a hale and healthy true believer, con artist, or both. In the end I doubt that it matters.

 
"Diagnosing any neurological or psychological disorder is a challenge even with modern equipment and the patient present in the flesh."

Just so.

 Does that mean I have no basis for my idea that Joan D'Arc suffered from schizophrenia ? IE she heard a voice she identified as St Catherine.  Her voice promised to save her . Apparently Joan became a bit distraught when she worked out her voice was not going to save her from being burned alive by the spiteful English.

Bernadette Soubirous at Lourdes? Also delusional? Or just lying?   Fatima? I've long thought the children were lying   .

OR simply hysteria? (in the  psychiatric meaning of the term)  https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictio...m/hysteria

Impossible to know I guess. That's THE problem with a great many Catholic saints; many never existed as people and  many were pagan gods absorbed by the faithful. Mexico is a wonderful example of old gods being given a new coat of paint.  One of my favourites is La Santisima  Muerta/Santa Muerta  (literally 'Most Holly Death'/ 'Holy Death ') beloved of the drug cartels  :

I found the full article cited below  fascinating :

"It's believed that Santa Muerte is rooted as far back as to the Aztecs, particularly to the goddess Mictlancihuatl (the Aztec goddess of death) and the wife of Mictlantecuhtli (the Aztec god of death) who together ruled over the underworld and the world of the dead.

Interestingly, the spider, the owl and the bat are associated with Mictlantecuhtli (the Aztec god of death) as they are with Santa Muerte. Because she is known as the Lady of the Dead, and for other similarities, she and Santa Muerte are considered one in the same.  "

http://curiouscurandera.com/acatalog/San...mbols.html
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#41

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
The nut houses are full of people who think "god" talks to them.

There is a reason we consider them crazy.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#42

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
I think there are multiple explanations for things like Joan D'Arc's experience which don't require mental illness. Hallucination, especially under certain conditions, is well within the range of normal behavior and psychology.
[Image: giant%20meteor%202020.jpg]
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#43

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Could all be bullshit, too.  Men love to think that 'god is on their side.'

The cemeteries are full of them.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#44

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Yup, asswipes always think that god is on their side.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/03/us/po...artner=rss

Quote:In Miami Speech, Trump Tells Evangelical Base: God Is ‘on Our Side’
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#45

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-03-2020, 09:22 PM)grympy Wrote: Does that mean I have no basis for my idea that Joan D'Arc suffered from schizophrenia? IE she heard a voice she identified as St Catherine.

Not a sound basis, no. The difficulty is that the evidence amounts to a game of whispers played by a pack of mendacious zealots. So yes, Jeanne d'Arc might have suffered from schizophrenia. Or epilepsy. Or tuberculosis. Or migraines. Or just about anything that produces delusions, hallucinations, or a fistful of other possible symptoms. The list of possibilities is endless.

And that's with a living individual that we have some smattering of historical evidence for. In the case of Paul we lack any historical data. We don't even know what he looked like.
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#46

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Indeed.  The earliest depiction of "paul" in xtian art is a 4th century fresco found in a catacomb in Rome.  By then it seems the bullshit had taken hold!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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