Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
#1

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
churchandstate.org

Quote:1. Paul’s Silence

The earliest texts in the New Testament are letters written during the first half of the first century by Paul and other people who used his name. These letters, or Epistles as they are called, give no hint that Paul or the forgers who used his name had heard about any signs and wonders surrounding the birth of Jesus, nor that his mother was a virgin impregnated by God in spirit form. Paul simply says that he was a Jew, born to a woman.

2. Mark’s Silence

The Gospel of Mark—thought to be the earliest of the four gospels and, so, closest to actual events—doesn’t contain a nativity or “infancy” story, even though it otherwise looks to be the primary source document for Matthew and Luke. In Mark, the divinity of Jesus gets established by wonders at the beginning of his ministry, and some Christian sects have believed that he was adopted by God at this point.

Why is Mark thought to be where the authors of Matthew and Luke got material? For starters, some passages in Mark, Matthew, and Luke would likely get flagged by plagiarism software. But in the original Greek, Mark is the most primitive and least polished of the three. It also is missing powerful passages like the Sermon on the Mount and has endings that vary from copy to copy. These are some of the reasons that scholars believe it predates the other two. Unlike Paul, the author of Mark was writing a life history of Jesus, one that was full of miracles. It would have been odd for him to simply leave out the auspicious miracles surrounding the birth of Jesus—unless those stories didn’t yet exist.

3. A Tale of Two Tales

Beyond a few basics, the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke have remarkably little overlap. In both, Jesus is born in Bethlehem of a virgin Mary who is betrothed to a man named Joseph. That’s where the similarity ends.

In Matthew’s story, an unnamed angel appears to Joseph, astrologers arrive bearing symbolic gifts, a special star appears in the east, Herod seeks to kill Jesus, warnings come during dreams, and the holy family flees to safety in Egypt just before boy infants are slaughtered across Judea.

In Luke’s story, the angel Gabriel appears to the future parents of John the Baptist. They miraculously conceive, but his father is made mute as a punishment for doubting. Gabriel then appears to Mary. During a visit between the two prospective mothers, who are cousins, John the Baptist in the womb recognizes Jesus in the womb and leaps. Later when John is named, his father miraculously regains the power of speech. A census forces Mary and Joseph to go to Bethlehem, where there is no room in the inn. Jesus is born and laid in a manger/cradle, and angels sing to shepherds who visit the baby. After his naming, his parents take him to the Jerusalem temple where he is recognized and blessed by a holy man and a resident prophetess, and then the family returns to their home in Nazareth instead of going to Egypt.

Some Christians try to harmonize these stories but a simpler explanation is that they represent two different branches in the tree of oral tradition. The study of European fairy tales shows that different versions of the stories tend to split off, with characters and magical elements diverging over time much like an evolutionary tree. The Matthew and Luke nativity stories likely underwent a similar process, meaning that oral traditions circulated and evolved for some time before the two authors inscribed their respective versions. Scholars debate how much the authors further revised the stories they received.

It’s interesting to note that each author inserted a dubious historical event (an impossible census in one and an unlikely mass infanticide in the other) to make his plotline work. Dubious histories become credible only after potential eyewitnesses die off—so their presence is one more indicator that one or more generations lapsed before the stories took their present form.

4. Pagan Parallels

Luke’s story appears to be slanted toward a Roman audience, and in fact the idea of gods impregnating human women was a common trope that many Jews and Christians have recognized as pagan. Progressive theologian Marcus Borg argued that the point of the story was to pivot fealty from Caesar Augustus to Jesus. According to Roman imperial theology, Augustus had been conceived when the god Apollo impregnated his human mother, Atia. Titles inscribed on coins and temples during his reign included “Son of God,” “Lord,” and “Savior.” They also included the phrase “peace on earth,” which Luke has his angels sing to shepherds.

5. Say What?!

By the second chapter of Luke, the parents of Jesus behave as if they have forgotten the astounding signs and wonders that accompanied his birth. When the boy is twelve, Mary and Joseph take him to Jerusalem for a festival, where they lose him in the crowd and find him three days later among the teachers in the temple. When they scold him, he says ‘“Why were you searching for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” But they did not understand what he said to them’ (Luke 2:49-50).

Wait. They didn’t know what he was talking about?! This otherwise bizarre narrative glitch, which directly follows the nativity story, suggests that the former was tacked on at a later time.

6. Divinity Rising

If we line up the four gospels in the estimated order they were written—Mark (60CE), Matthew (70-90CE), Luke (80-95CE), then John (90-100CE)—an interesting pattern emerges. Jesus becomes divine earlier and earlier. In Mark, as mentioned, he is shown to be divine when he is baptized (and perhaps is uniquely adopted or entered by God at that point). In Matthew and Luke, he is fathered by the Holy Spirit and is sinless from birth. In John, he is the Logos, present at the creation of the world—though also born of a woman. This sequence suggests that theologies explaining the divinity of Jesus emerged gradually and evolved as Christianity crystalized and spread.

After the Gospels of Matthew and Luke were bundled into the Catholic Bible, the two infancy stories merged. The three astrologers became Kings riding camels. Mary got her own “immaculate conception” and became, to some, a sinless perpetual virgin. The place of Jesus birth became a stable filled with adoring animals. And the holy birthday moved to winter solstice, weaving in delicious and delightful pagan traditions including feasting, tree decorating and festivals of light. The birth of a long-awaited messiah fused with the rebirth of the sun—and their joint birthday party became, in the dead of winter, a celebration of bounty and beauty and love and hope that captivated hearts even beyond the bounds of Christianity.
The following 8 users Like Phaedrus's post:
  • M.Linoge, Minimalist, Alan V, Gwaithmir, Cavebear, Paleophyte, grympy, RobbyPants
Reply
#2

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Anyone who thinks virgin birth narratives are legit is an idiot or a Christian.
The following 2 users Like jerry mcmasters's post:
  • Phaedrus, M.Linoge
Reply
#3

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Aren't they synonymous Jerry?
The following 3 users Like no one's post:
  • jerry mcmasters, Dancefortwo, Minimalist
Reply
#4

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Baby jesus was a late term addition?

How curious.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
The following 2 users Like brewerb's post:
  • Phaedrus, grympy
Reply
#5

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Quote:5. Qi

Like the birth of Jesus, the birth of Qi bypassed a father in Chinese myth. Qi was miraculously conceived when his mother Jiang Yuan stepped in a giant footprint left by the supreme deity Shangdi. Without an earthly father of her baby, Jiang Yuan tried to abandon him after he was born. But Qi, whose name means "the abandoned one," survived each time his mother tried to get rid of him. Jiang Yuan eventually took back her son, after recognizing his supernatural resilience. Qi proved to be a precious farmer and later became known as Houji, a god of agriculture and the mythical ancestor of China's Zhou dynasty.

Humans have a great capacity for bullshit.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 5 users Like Minimalist's post:
  • Dānu, brunumb, Phaedrus, Paleophyte, Old Man Marsh
Reply
#6

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Jesus' infancy stories were a big part of my literature studies all through my Catholic grade school period.  Consider
Reply
#7

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 01:43 AM)Phaedrus Wrote: churchandstate.org

Quote:1. Paul’s Silence

The earliest texts in the New Testament are letters written during the first half of the first century by Paul and other people who used his name. These letters, or Epistles as they are called, give no hint that Paul or the forgers who used his name had heard about any signs and wonders surrounding the birth of Jesus, nor that his mother was a virgin impregnated by God in spirit form. Paul simply says that he was a Jew, born to a woman.

2. Mark’s Silence

The Gospel of Mark—thought to be the earliest of the four gospels and, so, closest to actual events—doesn’t contain a nativity or “infancy” story, even though it otherwise looks to be the primary source document for Matthew and Luke. In Mark, the divinity of Jesus gets established by wonders at the beginning of his ministry, and some Christian sects have believed that he was adopted by God at this point.

Why is Mark thought to be where the authors of Matthew and Luke got material? For starters, some passages in Mark, Matthew, and Luke would likely get flagged by plagiarism software. But in the original Greek, Mark is the most primitive and least polished of the three. It also is missing powerful passages like the Sermon on the Mount and has endings that vary from copy to copy. These are some of the reasons that scholars believe it predates the other two. Unlike Paul, the author of Mark was writing a life history of Jesus, one that was full of miracles. It would have been odd for him to simply leave out the auspicious miracles surrounding the birth of Jesus—unless those stories didn’t yet exist.

3. A Tale of Two Tales

Beyond a few basics, the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke have remarkably little overlap. In both, Jesus is born in Bethlehem of a virgin Mary who is betrothed to a man named Joseph. That’s where the similarity ends.

In Matthew’s story, an unnamed angel appears to Joseph, astrologers arrive bearing symbolic gifts, a special star appears in the east, Herod seeks to kill Jesus, warnings come during dreams, and the holy family flees to safety in Egypt just before boy infants are slaughtered across Judea.

In Luke’s story, the angel Gabriel appears to the future parents of John the Baptist. They miraculously conceive, but his father is made mute as a punishment for doubting. Gabriel then appears to Mary. During a visit between the two prospective mothers, who are cousins, John the Baptist in the womb recognizes Jesus in the womb and leaps. Later when John is named, his father miraculously regains the power of speech. A census forces Mary and Joseph to go to Bethlehem, where there is no room in the inn. Jesus is born and laid in a manger/cradle, and angels sing to shepherds who visit the baby. After his naming, his parents take him to the Jerusalem temple where he is recognized and blessed by a holy man and a resident prophetess, and then the family returns to their home in Nazareth instead of going to Egypt.

Some Christians try to harmonize these stories but a simpler explanation is that they represent two different branches in the tree of oral tradition. The study of European fairy tales shows that different versions of the stories tend to split off, with characters and magical elements diverging over time much like an evolutionary tree. The Matthew and Luke nativity stories likely underwent a similar process, meaning that oral traditions circulated and evolved for some time before the two authors inscribed their respective versions. Scholars debate how much the authors further revised the stories they received.

It’s interesting to note that each author inserted a dubious historical event (an impossible census in one and an unlikely mass infanticide in the other) to make his plotline work. Dubious histories become credible only after potential eyewitnesses die off—so their presence is one more indicator that one or more generations lapsed before the stories took their present form.

4. Pagan Parallels

Luke’s story appears to be slanted toward a Roman audience, and in fact the idea of gods impregnating human women was a common trope that many Jews and Christians have recognized as pagan. Progressive theologian Marcus Borg argued that the point of the story was to pivot fealty from Caesar Augustus to Jesus. According to Roman imperial theology, Augustus had been conceived when the god Apollo impregnated his human mother, Atia. Titles inscribed on coins and temples during his reign included “Son of God,” “Lord,” and “Savior.” They also included the phrase “peace on earth,” which Luke has his angels sing to shepherds.

5. Say What?!

By the second chapter of Luke, the parents of Jesus behave as if they have forgotten the astounding signs and wonders that accompanied his birth. When the boy is twelve, Mary and Joseph take him to Jerusalem for a festival, where they lose him in the crowd and find him three days later among the teachers in the temple. When they scold him, he says ‘“Why were you searching for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” But they did not understand what he said to them’ (Luke 2:49-50).

Wait. They didn’t know what he was talking about?! This otherwise bizarre narrative glitch, which directly follows the nativity story, suggests that the former was tacked on at a later time.

6. Divinity Rising

If we line up the four gospels in the estimated order they were written—Mark (60CE), Matthew (70-90CE), Luke (80-95CE), then John (90-100CE)—an interesting pattern emerges. Jesus becomes divine earlier and earlier. In Mark, as mentioned, he is shown to be divine when he is baptized (and perhaps is uniquely adopted or entered by God at that point). In Matthew and Luke, he is fathered by the Holy Spirit and is sinless from birth. In John, he is the Logos, present at the creation of the world—though also born of a woman. This sequence suggests that theologies explaining the divinity of Jesus emerged gradually and evolved as Christianity crystalized and spread.

After the Gospels of Matthew and Luke were bundled into the Catholic Bible, the two infancy stories merged. The three astrologers became Kings riding camels. Mary got her own “immaculate conception” and became, to some, a sinless perpetual virgin. The place of Jesus birth became a stable filled with adoring animals. And the holy birthday moved to winter solstice, weaving in delicious and delightful pagan traditions including feasting, tree decorating and festivals of light. The birth of a long-awaited messiah fused with the rebirth of the sun—and their joint birthday party became, in the dead of winter, a celebration of bounty and beauty and love and hope that captivated hearts even beyond the bounds of Christianity.

Can't add much to that except that the sheperds were only out there in the Spring, LOL! Early Xians were good at taking over previous holidays...
A friend in need is a pain in the ass. If you are lucky, when he comes around you won't be home!
Reply
#8

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
The infancy gospels of James and Thomas are well known examples of these cooked up stories.
The fact that they even existed as "gospels" at all says a lot about what "gospels" are.
The following 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post:
  • Cavebear, Minimalist
Reply
#9

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 05:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: The infancy gospels of James and Thomas are well known examples of these cooked up stories.
The fact that they even existed as "gospels" at all says a lot about what "gospels" are.

The oonial US "founding fathers" often used old names to hide their identity and make good arguments. That some religious adherents did in the early years of their writings is not much of a surprise.

I consider it doubtful that the texts written using apostolostic (did I just create a word?) names were written by such actual people.
A friend in need is a pain in the ass. If you are lucky, when he comes around you won't be home!
Reply
#10
Information 
Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 01:45 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Anyone who thinks virgin birth narratives are legit is an idiot or a Christian.

The virgin birth story was a translation error and misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14.  The writers, as they were backwriting the Jesus story and making every attempt to shoehorn him into the messiah role,  followed this  translation error.  The Jesus prophecy claim was nothing of the sort.   Backwriting is a writing technique, not prophecy.
                                                         T4618
The following 2 users Like Dancefortwo's post:
  • jerry mcmasters, Gwaithmir
Reply
#11

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 06:02 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 01:45 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Anyone who thinks virgin birth narratives are legit is an idiot or a Christian.

The virgin birth story was a translation error and misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14.  The writers, as they were backwriting the Jesus story and making every attempt to shoehorn him into the messiah role,  followed this  translation error.  The Jesus prophecy claim was nothing of the sort.   Backwriting is a writing technique, not prophecy.

Well, of course. But that all assumes there were any such individuals at all.
A friend in need is a pain in the ass. If you are lucky, when he comes around you won't be home!
Reply
#12

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 06:07 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 06:02 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 01:45 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Anyone who thinks virgin birth narratives are legit is an idiot or a Christian.

The virgin birth story was a translation error and misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14.  The writers, as they were backwriting the Jesus story and making every attempt to shoehorn him into the messiah role,  followed this  translation error.  The Jesus prophecy claim was nothing of the sort.   Backwriting is a writing technique, not prophecy.

Well, of course.  But that all assumes there were any such individuals at all.

Well, it's a little off the threads topic but I'm not a mythisist however I don't care if people are. I don't get all pushed out of shape like Free does. I personally think some joe-schmo Jesus guy existed, a local hero that peasants told stories about and was elevated to god status.  A little like King Authur.  He may have existed too. His magical sword and Merlin did not.   Siddhartha Gautama probably existed, aaaaaand  then the stories began. Many people worship Buddha as a god.  Vlad the Impaler existed, vampires do not.  People love to tell stories and believe in superstitious shit. 

Anyway, the virgin birth is total crap.
                                                         T4618
The following 2 users Like Dancefortwo's post:
  • jerry mcmasters, Gwaithmir
Reply
#13

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 05:35 PM)Cavebear Wrote: I consider it doubtful that the texts written using apostolostic (did I just create a word?) names were written by such actual people.

The word is "apostolic".

Even most conservative scholars regard Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as "traditional" attributions. Fundamentalist preachers generally talk as if they were really written by those guys, and I suspect most pew-warmers therefore think they are the actual authors. But when pressed, most any conservative scholar, even the inerrantists, will admit we don't actually know who wrote them. The documents themselves make no such claim. There's no byline on them.
Reply
#14

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 06:02 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 01:45 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Anyone who thinks virgin birth narratives are legit is an idiot or a Christian.

The virgin birth story was a translation error and misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14.  The writers, as they were backwriting the Jesus story and making every attempt to shoehorn him into the messiah role,  followed this  translation error.  The Jesus prophecy claim was nothing of the sort.   Backwriting is a writing technique, not prophecy.

Matthew found prophecy in every fart and sneeze of Jesus. It's clear that Matthew is hagiography at its worst. He likely simply invented half of it.
[Image: signature%20The-Ascension-of-Iweko.jpg]
The following 5 users Like Dānu's post:
  • Cavebear, Inkubus, mordant, Phaedrus, Dancefortwo
Reply
#15

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 07:19 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 06:02 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 01:45 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Anyone who thinks virgin birth narratives are legit is an idiot or a Christian.

The virgin birth story was a translation error and misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14.  The writers, as they were backwriting the Jesus story and making every attempt to shoehorn him into the messiah role,  followed this  translation error.  The Jesus prophecy claim was nothing of the sort.   Backwriting is a writing technique, not prophecy.

Matthew found prophecy in every fart and sneeze of Jesus.  It's clear that Matthew is hagiography at its worst.  He likely simply invented half of it.

The way that prophecy is treated in the Bible is one of the clearer indicators of authorship, or rather who the authors weren't. In Judaism prophecy is a set of instructions from God to mortals. If you do A, B, and C then D will be the result. If you need a white buffalo it doesn't matter if you use CRISPR or meta-materials to get the job done so long as the beast is a buffalo and white.

By contrast, the Bible treats prophecy in the same way that the Hellenic world did, as a series of signs and portents to announce that God has already done all the heavy lifting and the Chosen One has been born. This is no surprise for a book cooked up by a Roman mystery cult but pretty clearly illustrates that the books of the Bible weren't written by any disciple of Jesus or anybody even remotely Jewish.
The following 2 users Like Paleophyte's post:
  • Dānu, brunumb
Reply
#16

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 06:02 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(12-15-2019, 01:45 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Anyone who thinks virgin birth narratives are legit is an idiot or a Christian.

The virgin birth story was a translation error and misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14.  The writers, as they were backwriting the Jesus story and making every attempt to shoehorn him into the messiah role,  followed this  translation error.  The Jesus prophecy claim was nothing of the sort.   Backwriting is a writing technique, not prophecy.

Agreed.  I meant idiot not only of the Christian variety that would believe the virgin birth story on its face, but anyone is an idiot to think it wasn't a late addition to the Jesus story.  Not being in Mark or mentioned by Paul is a giveaway.
The following 2 users Like jerry mcmasters's post:
  • Phaedrus, Dancefortwo
Reply
#17

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 01:43 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:
Quote:If we line up the four gospels in the estimated order they were written—Mark (60CE), Matthew (70-90CE), Luke (80-95CE), then John (90-100CE)—an interesting pattern emerges. Jesus becomes divine earlier and earlier.

You see that type of pattern in other stories that are told in more than one gospel. The later ones always make the story bigger. It's like those fish stories. Mark is holding his hands a foot apart when the tells the story, and John has his spread as wide as they can go while claiming the fish is actually God. It's pretty consistent.


(12-15-2019, 01:45 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Anyone who thinks virgin birth narratives are legit is an idiot or a Christian.

Anecdotally, most Christians I know believe pretty much every Sunday school story they've ever heard up until they're forced to examine it closer. Up until that point, it's just never given a second thought, and even afterward, they still are as likely to cling to it as to dismiss it as a metaphor.
The following 1 user Likes RobbyPants's post:
  • Phaedrus
Reply
#18

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 01:43 AM)Phaedrus Wrote: If we line up the four gospels in the estimated order they were written—Mark (60CE)

Most scholars date Mark around 69 to 70CE and the original lacks a post resurrected Jebus.   Gods stories always have magical births and deaths.  They defy the phyics that chain the rest of us poor schmucks to the earth.  They fly or walk on water or do amazing things we mortal people can't do.  The Jebus story is pretty common god stuff.

Someone at the old forum pointed out that Joseph and Mary were always being amazed at Jesus, like when he was 12 and at the Temple and they finally find him there, they were "amazed" at his wisdom and suprised that he's in "his father's house".  Um HELLO!  Hey Mary, don't you remember that angel appearing to you and telling you you were going to have the son of a god?  Guess it didn't make much of an impression on her because she keeps forgetting all about it.
                                                         T4618
The following 6 users Like Dancefortwo's post:
  • Dānu, RobbyPants, Inkubus, brunumb, Phaedrus, Paleophyte
Reply
#19

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(12-15-2019, 04:39 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:5. Qi

Like the birth of Jesus, the birth of Qi bypassed a father in Chinese myth. Qi was miraculously conceived when his mother Jiang Yuan stepped in a giant footprint left by the supreme deity Shangdi. Without an earthly father of her baby, Jiang Yuan tried to abandon him after he was born. But Qi, whose name means "the abandoned one," survived each time his mother tried to get rid of him. Jiang Yuan eventually took back her son, after recognizing his supernatural resilience. Qi proved to be a precious farmer and later became known as Houji, a god of agriculture and the mythical ancestor of China's Zhou dynasty.

Humans have a great capacity for bullshit.

The Chinese have a wonderful and varied tradition of bullshit.----yet this was at one time the most advanced culture on earth . --I won't even start  on the golden age of Islamic  culture. 

Below a clip of "Tiger Balm Gardens" Singapore.  Built by Haw Par brothers, original owners of "Tiger Balm" ointment, as a public service .  (the original is/was  on Hong Kong Island) Painted concrete  statues and scenes of Chinese mythology. I first saw it in 1970.   Looks like it may have been recently refurbished. 


I think this falls under the heading of "muck for the masses"  Consider  

The following 1 user Likes grympy's post:
  • Phaedrus
Reply
#20

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Baby Jesus was a dick.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nzn5z...-of-a-dick
The following 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post:
  • Phaedrus, Dancefortwo, Inkubus
Reply
#21

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
If you think about it with a slightly open mind those late additions reflect the need for xtian propagandists to fill in the blanks in the conversion of their godboy from a space cadet to an actual human.

Space cadet gods who live in outer space - which is what "paul" describes - and who then drop from the sky into Capernaum - which is what early xtian writers tell us that Marcion claimed - do not need birth or infancy stories.  It is only when the process of euhemerization begins to take a legend and flesh it out with an actual biography that people would even begin to ask questions about a god's "birth" and childhood.  And xtian propagandists were quick to fill the gaps in their history.  Goebbels would have loved those guys.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 4 users Like Minimalist's post:
  • mordant, Bucky Ball, Dānu, brunumb
Reply
#22

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 03:46 PM)Minimalist Wrote: If you think about it with a slightly open mind those late additions reflect the need for xtian propagandists to fill in the blanks in the conversion of their godboy from a space cadet to an actual human.

Space cadet gods who live in outer space - which is what "paul" describes - and who then drop from the sky into Capernaum - which is what early xtian writers tell us that Marcion claimed - do not need birth or infancy stories.  It is only when the process of euhemerization begins to take a legend and flesh it out with an actual biography that people would even begin to ask questions about a god's "birth" and childhood.  And xtian propagandists were quick to fill the gaps in their history.  Goebbels would have loved those guys.

Paul doesn't exclusively describe a celestial Jesus, but the few references to Jesus as a more flesh and blood persona have a bolted-on, creedal feel to them, and it isn't impossible or even unlikely that those mentions were retrofitted later to semi-harmonize Paul with the gospels, either.
Reply
#23

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
Remember that we do not have the originals of any of this shit.  All we know about "paul" is what emerged from the xtian re-write.  Scholars have identified numerous examples of interpolations in "paul."  As a source, he is hopelessly compromised.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • mordant
Reply
#24

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 04:11 PM)mordant Wrote:
(01-02-2020, 03:46 PM)Minimalist Wrote: If you think about it with a slightly open mind those late additions reflect the need for xtian propagandists to fill in the blanks in the conversion of their godboy from a space cadet to an actual human.

Space cadet gods who live in outer space - which is what "paul" describes - and who then drop from the sky into Capernaum - which is what early xtian writers tell us that Marcion claimed - do not need birth or infancy stories.  It is only when the process of euhemerization begins to take a legend and flesh it out with an actual biography that people would even begin to ask questions about a god's "birth" and childhood.  And xtian propagandists were quick to fill the gaps in their history.  Goebbels would have loved those guys.

Paul doesn't exclusively describe a celestial Jesus, but the few bolted-on references to Jesus as a more flesh and blood persona have a creedal feel to them, and it isn't impossible or even unlikely that those mentions were retrofitted later to semi-harmonize Paul with the gospels, either.

(01-02-2020, 04:19 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Remember that we do not have the originals of any of this shit.  All we know about "paul" is what emerged from the xtian re-write.  Scholars have identified numerous examples of interpolations in "paul."  As a source, he is hopelessly compromised.

And they were all basically working in isolation, in their kitchens, cooking up their own recipes of Christianity. 
When one jettisons the view / expectation that somehow there ought to be a a single/orthodox view, (how could there be, when they didn't talk to each other, regularly) you're free to see what they might really be saying.
The following 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post:
  • mordant
Reply
#25

Baby Jesus stories were late additions to early christian lore
(01-02-2020, 04:11 PM)mordant Wrote:
(01-02-2020, 03:46 PM)Minimalist Wrote: If you think about it with a slightly open mind those late additions reflect the need for xtian propagandists to fill in the blanks in the conversion of their godboy from a space cadet to an actual human.

Space cadet gods who live in outer space - which is what "paul" describes - and who then drop from the sky into Capernaum - which is what early xtian writers tell us that Marcion claimed - do not need birth or infancy stories.  It is only when the process of euhemerization begins to take a legend and flesh it out with an actual biography that people would even begin to ask questions about a god's "birth" and childhood.  And xtian propagandists were quick to fill the gaps in their history.  Goebbels would have loved those guys.

Paul doesn't exclusively describe a celestial Jesus, but the few bolted-on references to Jesus as a more flesh and blood persona have a creedal feel to them, and it isn't impossible or even unlikely that those mentions were retrofitted later to semi-harmonize Paul with the gospels, either.

There's some evidence that Paul had a type of temporal lobe epilepsy that closely fits those who have this kind of epilepsy.  They believe they're interacting with a god.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien...58681.html
Quote:Researchers at Hadassah Medical Centre, linked to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, have scanned the brain of a man during a seizure, while he also had visions of God and noticed a surge of activity in the organ’s frontal lobe, which is linked to a belief people are interacting with a deity.

Quote:“While lying in bed, the patient abruptly ‘froze’ and stared at the ceiling for several minutes, stating later that he felt that God was approaching him. He then started chanting prayers quietly, looked for his kippa and put it on his head, chanting the prayers more excessively.”

It's believed that Paul had what was called in ancient times  "the falling down disease".   He wrote about an inability to not "stand proud" which in those days meant not able to stand up and his visions closely resemble people who have temporal lobe 
epilepsy.  Epilpesy has been connected to Paul for centuries.  Epilpesy is frequently called St Paul's Disease.  But wouldn't you know, when this report came out churches got all pushed out of shape.  

  https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/jnnp/50/6/659.full.pdf
                                                         T4618
The following 1 user Likes Dancefortwo's post:
  • Bucky Ball
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)