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Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
#1

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
There's pretty good evidence Roman Polanski raped an underage girl and of course we all know about Bill Cosby.  There's controversy about Woody Allen too but nothing substantial.  Well, he did marry his adopted daughter and that's a little bit...ewww.  Given all the information, do you still think Cosby was funny or enjoy Roman Polanski's films?  If an entertainer or film maker rapes a women or diddles an underage girl how do you react to their work?  

Recently I read about the film, Last Tango in Paris in which the director Bernardo Bertollucci and actor Marlon Brando privately discussed an upcoming rape scene with 19 year old actress, Marie Schneider.  They both decided to use a stick of butter as lubrication during the anal penetration scene without telling her.  The director wanted her reaction to be real and true to life.  There was no penetration but the scene was still very graphic.  She later said she was so shocked and humiliated that she felt raped.  I'm not a lawyer but I'd think that scene is more like sexual assault.  So would you still watch Last Tango in Paris?  I've never seen it.
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#2

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
(12-04-2019, 04:22 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: There's pretty good evidence Roman Polanski raped an underage girl and of course we all know about Bill Cosby.  There's controversy about Woody Allen too but nothing substantial.  Well, he did marry his adopted daughter and that's a little bit...ewww.  Given all the information, do you still think Cosby was funny or enjoy Roman Polanski's films?  If an entertainer or film maker rapes a women or diddles an underage girl how do you react to their work?  

Recently I read about the film, Last Tango in Paris in which the director Bernardo Bertollucci and actor Marlon Brando privately discussed an upcoming rape scene with 19 year old actress, Marie Schneider.  They both decided to use a stick of butter as lubrication during the anal penetration scene without telling her.  The director wanted her reaction to be real and true to life.  There was no penetration but the scene was still very graphic.  She later said she was so shocked and humiliated that she felt raped.  I'm not a lawyer but I'd think that scene is more like sexual assault.  So would you still watch Last Tango in Paris?  I've never seen it.

I can't enjoy Cosby anymore, I still think he is funny and I would love to be able to enjoy him, but all I can think about when I see him now is what he did.

Same with the others, but not as strongly. Rationally, I think the work should be separate from the man, but emotionally it doesn't work out that way.
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#3

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
I have a problem with insisting on perfection from any one.  I sure as hell could not meet that standard and I doubt many others could either.  Political correctness is a modern scourge. The great artists of the world always seem to have a screw loose or two.  Or, as H. L. Mencken put it:

Quote:The great artists of the world are never Puritans, and seldom respectable. No virtuous man--that is, virtuous in the Y.M.C.A. sense--has ever painted a picture worth looking at, or written a symphony worth hearing, or a book worth reading.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#4

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
Yeah, no. I don't think "being an artist" is an excuse for anything.

Some of Woody Allen's movies are now cringeworthy in hindsight, especially Manhatten.

If artists do terrible things, it colors all of their work. Everything is read in a certain context.

No one is insisting on perfection to say people shouldn't be criminals.
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#5

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
(12-04-2019, 04:28 PM)Dom Wrote: Rationally, I think the work should be separate from the man, but emotionally it doesn't work out that way.

Yeah, I get that. This is a difficult subject because like Alan V mentioned, I can't watch Woody Allen movies anymore without thinking about his personal life.  All OJ Simpson has to do is walk across the screen in Naked Gun and I'm not enjoying the film anymore.  I kinda liked those movies too but the ones with OJ turn my stomach. 

I don't know if there are degrees of badness an artist is allowed to get away with before there's a tipping point of no return.  Seems like it.
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#6

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
(12-04-2019, 06:02 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(12-04-2019, 04:28 PM)Dom Wrote: Rationally, I think the work should be separate from the man, but emotionally it doesn't work out that way.

Yeah, I get that. This is a difficult subject because like Alan V mentioned, I can't watch Woody Allen movies anymore without thinking about his personal life.  All OJ Simpson has to do is walk across the screen in Naked Gun and I'm not enjoying the film anymore.  I kinda liked those movies too but the ones with OJ turn my stomach. 

I don't know if there are degrees of badness an artist is allowed to get away with before there's a tipping point of no return.  Seems like it.

I think that's in the eyes of the beholder. If you can compartmentalize then you can continue to enjoy the work of a "bad" person. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But if seeing that person triggers you, you just can't enjoy the work anymore.

Still, I think one should give credit where credit is due, and some of those folks created great work. Whether your enjoyment continues or not is a separate matter.
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#7

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
From a different angle, I was a huge football fan when younger, and admired OJ, until it became clear that he was an abusive murderer. That doesn't diminish his feats on the field, but it's hard for me to enjoy them due to his crimes.

Much of the time I can separate the performance from the performer, but not always. Cosby is another like that for me. I loved him as a kid -- saw him from the front row in 1981 -- but when I hear him now I hear a hypocrite, which devalues the comedy he put out back then, for me.
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#8

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
Allen also molested his bio daughter.  At least that’s what she has consistently claimed.  

I don’t watch any of their stuff anymore (the only one I truly liked was Allen, his stories and essays, not his movies so much, not a movie buff generally).  Polanski films: haven’t seen them.  Cosby: there was something about his persona that always read authoritarian to me, and my natural response to that is opposition.   

I am trying harder these days to avoid putting money in the pockets of abusers, especially those who used money and influence to destroy the careers of the people they injured.  

Their personal defects don’t affect the aesthetic value of their work.  I have no problem conceding that all have done work of strong quality.   I won’t be consuming their product anymore.  I won’t be scolding people who decide differently, though.
god, ugh
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#9

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
(12-04-2019, 04:22 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Given all the information, do you still think Cosby was funny or enjoy Roman Polanski's films?

I never thought Cosby to be funny. But I do enjoy Polanski's films.
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#10

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
Cosby played a big role in my childhood humor. His criminal behavior really trashed my thoughts about that.
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#11

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
Yeah, I can't watch without getting pissed off. Hell, I have a hard time watching anything with scientology actors.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#12

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
(12-04-2019, 08:53 PM)brewerb Wrote: Yeah, I can't watch without getting pissed off. Hell, I have a hard time watching anything with scientology actors.

I only have a problem with Cruise, which has more to do with his acting skills than his scientology affiliation. I rather like Travolta. I even like some of Gibson's films. Not scientology, I know, but religious nutjob supreme.
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#13

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
I have none of the same angst when recalling George Carlin or Frank Zappa. Cosby really soured me, I can't revisit his material.
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#14

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
(12-04-2019, 06:18 PM)Dom Wrote: Still, I think one should give credit where credit is due, and some of those folks created great work. Whether your enjoyment continues or not is a separate matter.

Agree totally.  That was then; this is now.

Here in Melbourne, we painted over all of Rolf Harris's street murals, removed his books from libraries,
stopped selling his DVDs and banned publicly broadcasting them etc.  Was it realistic to do all that
stuff—considering the entertainment/education factors of his broad works—his art, humour, his books,
and his songwriting abilities etc?

His songs, "Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport", "Jake the Peg" and "Two Little Boys" —were Top Ten hits in
Australia, the UK, and the United States.

Should we suddenly reject all that massive compendium of Australia art and literature? Should we write
Harris out of a large part of our earlier entertainment history when Harris's name was on everybody's
lips?  Should we pretend he didn't even exist?

Bear in mind that Harris was not a paedophile as such, but was convicted on twelve counts of indecent
assault on four teenage female victims. I'm not saying those crimes were anything less than reprehensible,
but too many people here in Australia are loosely describing him as a paedophile, which in Australia is too
often the cue for the ultra-conservatives and the church(!) to scramble to their soap boxes in order to spew
their bullshit about Aussie morals and ethics, and sexuality and politics etc.

(Harris's oldest complainant, leading to further charges, was 27 years of age.)
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#15

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
My take is that if a person commits a crime, there is a process for handling them. I do not think that any stature that they may have achieved in society exempts them from equal consequences under the law. That's my "Pollyanna" quote for the day.  Blush I know how it actually works. $$$$ buys "justice".
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#16

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
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#17

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
(12-05-2019, 12:42 AM)Fireball Wrote: My take is that if a person commits a crime, there is a process for handling them. I do not think that any stature that they may have achieved in society exempts them from equal consequences under the law...

I agree. And that's exactly why multi-millionaire and one of Australia's favourite sons
Harris was convicted and sentenced to 5 years and 9 month's jail at 84 years of age.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#18

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
(12-04-2019, 08:53 PM)brewerb Wrote: Yeah, I can't watch without getting pissed off. Hell, I have a hard time watching anything with scientology actors.

It's true for me as well.  There was a tv sitcom called The King of Queens with Leah Remini, who was a scientologist and I purposely didn't watch it for that reason........well, also because it was a piece of crap show.  After she deconverted and came out in a big way against Scientology I tuned in to one of the reruns.  It was still a piece of crap show but I was a little more tolerant of it's, umm, humor. 

A few years ago I read a biography about Ava Gardner (beautiful woman!) and the book recounts how she was having a fling with George C Scot during the filming of a movie and he beat the shit out of her, breaking her collar bone,  almost killing her.  The director had to pull him off of her.   Now, I whenever I see George C Scott in a movie (which isn't very often)  I think about him beating up Ava Gardner.   I guess I need to not read about the private lives of actors.
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#19

Roman Polanski, Bill Cosby and others
I try to divorce the performer from the the performance, but in some cases what they did is simply too reprehensible. At least in Cosby's case, there was no great loss since that sad sack of shit quit being funny when he started having kids and tried working them into his act.
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