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[Serious] Singing the N-word
#26

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-12-2019, 10:22 PM)jerryg Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 09:38 PM)Ferdinand Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 07:24 PM)jerryg Wrote: It's obviously not racist.  But if the people at the bottom of society want to be dumb about it, seems like that's a small concession for being stuck at the bottom of society.

It's one word.  I think us white folks can survive without it.

I can’t tell if you’re implying that people of color are the bottom of society or if I am interpreting this wrong? If I am interpreting wrong I apologize. Additionally, last I checked, a word rooted in the history of slavery and racist atrocities is definitely racist. Just ask any person of color what they feel. 

I live in a predominantly diverse area and I grew up with a very racist white family. I had to learn what racism was and realize racial boundaries on my own because my family was hateful, and southern, and I didn’t want to follow that example. I learned from those around me what systematic racism was, and I learned from my own family that racism is very much still alive. That word is the unspoken word because it is culturally inclusive and harbors a lot of pain when it comes from someone that’s not a poc. I think that many poc would agree that it’s just not okay to sing or say and it’s not my right as non poc to argue that.

PoC are definitely at the bottom of society.  They get shot up by cops, get the shit schools, went through a bunch of slavery and oppression, and still face a bunch of racism.  They aren't rolling in societal advantages.  I wasn't saying they are doing something wrong, just that they've been getting the short end of the stick.

N-word used in context, definitely racist.  Some white kid singing along to Gold Digger though?  Not really.  PoC can definitely call it racist.  And we can play along.  But it's pretty clearly not.  Music is art.  Singing Golddigger is racist in the same way looking at the Sistine Chapel is porn.  But again, poc have dealt with enough, if they want to call it racist, playing along is literally the least us white folks can do.

Same with black face.  Old Timey Minstrel Shows.  Obviously racist.  But I think we know some Kappa Beta chick going as Slutty Kirby Puckett for Halloween in Minnesota isn't the same thing.  But again, poc have been through some shit, so the least we can do is play along.

A part of playing along, of course, is also pretending like what I'm saying isn't true.  But I think a little leeway to speak freely exists on the internet.

Another comparison to singing along to Golddigger would be actors saying it in movies.  Again, I think art softens a lot of the rules you have in everyday society.

I can totally see where you’re coming from, and I agree that context is everything. I think that when the word is said with the intent to be racist, that’s what makes it racist, but I think the reason we don’t even say it in the context of art or music is because of sensitivity, and understanding what the word means. Kendrick Lamar pulled a white girl on stage to sing one of his songs and she incidentally sung the word and he kicked her off stage – she didn’t sing the word with racist intent, but there was still a lot of backlash and Lamar also kind of set that situation up for himself. It’s just a sticky situation all around, even if it’s said without malicious context, or sung, and poc just cringe at others using it.
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#27

[Serious] Singing the N-word
Context matters. This can be seen simply in the difference between the self-deprecation in "Damn I'm stupid." and the much deeper insult in "Damn you're stupid."

Similarly, "Damn you're an ugly nigger!" can be a compliment of sorts when uttered by a black person but is rated amongst the top ten ways to get your teeth punched in when uttered by a white person. As a result, the smart white person doesn't use that word.

It's a little more complicated when it's a song lyric but in this specific case the white boy in question was told by a group of people who have good reason to be offended by certain uses of that word that he shouldn't be doing what he was doing. At this point in the dialogue the smart individual apologizes and asks the offended individuals what the smart way to handle this sort of problem is. This approach might lead to a productive discussion.

By contrast, simply stating that your position is right and being intractable is a brilliant way to turn any argument into a fight. That doesn't necessarily make you a racist, but it does make you a fucking moron. The offended party may now rightly regard you as a complete jackass, and the difference between a white jackass who insists on saying "nigger" and a racist being razor thin, they might be excused for mistaking you for the latter.
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#28

[Serious] Singing the N-word
It's not a word I would use myself whether as a slur or in an innocent context. If other people want to fight about it, that's on them.

But simply eliminating this word's use won't do a whit for rooting out racism.

Considering the systemic and quiet modes of racism that are still rampant in the US but don't get any attention because they aren't that sexy and exciting to talk about, I find sound-bite controversies like this to be a bit of a distraction.

-Teresa
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
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#29

[Serious] Singing the N-word
Either a world is off-limits for everybody or nobody. The whole point of not being a racist is to not treat races differently.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#30

[Serious] Singing the N-word
If you don't like it, stop promoting a double standard. This applies to all races.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#31

[Serious] Singing the N-word
I said it before. I think black people should be be more worried about those that don't use the word but pull strings on their back than some withey boy singing along a music. But this is a cultural thing and I fear that in the US, racism has become part of the country culture.
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#32

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-13-2019, 01:40 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Either a world is off-limits for everybody or nobody. The whole point of not being a racist is to not treat races differently.

(11-13-2019, 03:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: If you don't like it, stop promoting a double standard. This applies to all races.

Ok, valid opinion, but not quite realistic. Cultural exclusivity doesn't promote racism, and you can allow cultural exclusivity while still treating races equally. This particular case of cultural exclusivity is also different from other forms, as we did, ya know, enslave poc and committee atrocities against them for hundreds of years.
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#33

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-13-2019, 01:40 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Either a world is off-limits for everybody or nobody. The whole point of not being a racist is to not treat races differently.

 Interesting point with which I agree. Racism will have become extinct when we become colour blind.Children are ,they have to be taught to be racist.

The clip below is from 'South Pacific'; "You've got to be carefully taught"



(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

In his early stand up, Richard Prior used the N word a lot in his act. As far as I can tell, black people did not take offence.

Later in his career he spoke of his visit to Africa . Seeing  black  people in their own country living  lives with a natural dignity and respect effected him deeply. Richard  made a conscious decision to never use the N word again.  He said there are no niggers. That it's a word "used to describe our own wretchedness" 

Whether you agree or not, I think the video linked below is worthy of consideration: 

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#34

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-12-2019, 10:59 PM)Chimp3 Wrote: I remember Richard Pryor's skit on why it is OK for Black people to use the word nigger and not white people.
I agreed with him then and still do. I only use the word nigger in this post because writing "the N-word" is disingenuous...

I agree.  It's similar to people writing "f*ck" or "G*d" or "c*nt".  In all three cases,
it's more than obvious what they're saying, and it's silly to assume that the asterisk
make the words any less offensive to those of a delicate or puritanical nature.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#35

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-14-2019, 05:56 AM)Ferdinand Wrote:
(11-13-2019, 01:40 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Either a world is off-limits for everybody or nobody. The whole point of not being a racist is to not treat races differently.

(11-13-2019, 03:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: If you don't like it, stop promoting a double standard. This applies to all races.

Ok, valid opinion, but not quite realistic. Cultural exclusivity doesn't promote racism, and you can allow cultural exclusivity while still treating races equally. This particular case of cultural exclusivity is also different from other forms, as we did, ya know, enslave poc and committee atrocities against them for hundreds of years.

Stating that "we get to do something/be something/wear something/say something and you don't" is at the very heart of racism.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#36

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-14-2019, 05:56 AM)Ferdinand Wrote:
(11-13-2019, 01:40 PM)EvieTheAvocado Wrote: Either a world is off-limits for everybody or nobody. The whole point of not being a racist is to not treat races differently.

(11-13-2019, 03:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: If you don't like it, stop promoting a double standard. This applies to all races.

Ok, valid opinion, but not quite realistic. Cultural exclusivity doesn't promote racism, and you can allow cultural exclusivity while still treating races equally. This particular case of cultural exclusivity is also different from other forms, as we did, ya know, enslave poc and committee atrocities against them for hundreds of years.

You think that not disallowing certain groups of people to behave certain ways, but allowing others to behave that way (i.e.avoiding bigotry) is not realistic?

I'm sure even a lot of people who used to be against slavery still thought that ending it was "not realistic".

And this is obviously not as serious or difficult as that. All the law has to do is either say a word is not okay for everybody or it's okay for everybody.

It's actually far less realistic to micromanage it so that certain groups of people don't have to follow the same laws. Applying different laws to different groups of people is a lot more awkward than applying the same laws to everybody. And it's obviously totally bigoted and racist to treat one race different to others. There can be no exceptions to that. All races should have to follow the same laws otherwise the law is racist as fuck.

But America's government is already as racist as fuck. Hence why there are so many black people in jail who make most of the weapons for the U.S. military while in prison. America has revitalized the slave trade by the backdoor.

Allowing black people but no other race to say the word "nigger" ... is not a step in the right direction ... it actually further justifies treating them differently and further justifies their mistreatment (whilst giving a false image that you care). And it's condescending, too.

Banning words doesn't work and banning them for only certain groups of people is more than just totally unrealistic ... it will actually make things worse. America is weird. The law is supposed to be universal.

If you're going to ban a word at least ban it for everybody ... there's nothing more racist than applying different laws to different races. It hurts minorities more than it helps them. These weak attempts to make up for their past mistreatment will NOT help ... it will just further divide them from everybody else and increase resentment in their direction ... which is the last thing minorities need.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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#37

[Serious] Singing the N-word
(11-14-2019, 05:56 AM)Ferdinand Wrote: Cultural exclusivity doesn't promote racism

It's not "cultural exclusivity" it's racial exclusivity.

Quote: and you can allow cultural exclusivity while still treating races equally.

It's not treating races equally if different laws are applied to different races.

Quote: This particular case of cultural exclusivity is also different from other forms, as we did, ya know, enslave poc and committee atrocities against them for hundreds of years.

"Against them" ... i.e. against racial minorities ... not "cultural" minorities.

Acting like you're helping by being extra nice to minorities after hurting them for ages ... is just a racist pretending to be nice. It will just keep races divided ... it's bigoted as fuck ... and condescending, too. This is beyond obvious to anybody who understands what bigotry is.

And even if it were the case that you were treating different culturres differently regardless of their race so that white people who grew up in a black person's culture was still treated as a "cultural minority" and got different treatment that was supposedly a good thing ... it would still be bigoted as fuck for exactly the same reason. It would just be cultural bigotry instead of racial bigotry. Exclusivity is bigotry. Encouraging diversity in a non-bigoted way is about multiculturalism ... not about cultural segregation which is exactly what cultural exclusivity leads to. And cultural segregation is obviously bigoted as fuck ... and even worse when it leads to racial segregation. It's the definition of racism.

Either be all-inclusive regarding all races and cultures or admit that you're a bigot. There is no non-bigoted way of applying different laws to different groups. If you're a person you should follow the same laws as everybody else. By saying that minorities don't have to follow the same laws ... you're basically saying that they're not people. And you're just continuing to dehumanize and victimize them while pretending to be extra nice. Maybe some individuals in some minority groups want special treatment ... but plenty of them will also think it's fucked up that they're not being treated the same as everybody else.
My Argument Against Free Will Wrote:(1) Ultimately, to control your actions you have to originate your original nature.

(2) But you can't originate your original nature—it's already there.

(3) So, ultimately, you can't control your actions.
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