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Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
#1

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4818218/a...s-founders

Watched this debate, pretty interesting. Seidel made some good points, especially about the golden rule not being a Christian concept and how Christians claim to have invented it when they really didn't.
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#2

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
Xtians invented lots of stuff.... including their godboy.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#3

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-21-2019, 11:45 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Xtians invented lots of stuff.... including their godboy.

 Indeed.

Hence the radical difference between the YHWH of the Old and New Testaments

To be pedantic, the people who became the Jews  lacked the wit to invent their own god.  They stole YHWH from the Canaanite pantheon and tweaked him  into an utter cunt. 

The christians subsumed YHWH and added Jesus and  the holy spirit to complete the trinity.  They then  put Jesus in charge .

To this  day the more extreme christian sects like to cherrypick the OT to find bits which support their myopic and hateful  world view.   Some  of the truly lunar sects  focus  on the Nt's Book Of Revelations* , to keep recalculating the tend of days. 


*the one  written by it is thought at least two hands . Both of those hands seem to have ingested some form of  hallucinogen.
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#4

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
Most likely Revelations started out as Jewish Apocalyptic literature... and then underwent extensive jesus freak redaction.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#5

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 01:15 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Most likely Revelations started out as Jewish Apocalyptic literature... and then underwent extensive jesus freak redaction.

 Really.  Fascinating. I didn't know that. Do you have a source for that information?
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#6

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-21-2019, 08:42 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4818218/a...s-founders

Watched this debate, pretty interesting. Seidel made some good points, especially about the golden rule not being a Christian concept and how Christians claim to have invented it when they really didn't.

There is little good that is original in the Bible, and that which is original is not good.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it.
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#7

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 01:15 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Most likely Revelations started out as Jewish Apocalyptic literature... and then underwent extensive jesus freak redaction.

Revelation, no 's'. Whistling

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it.
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#8

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 02:06 AM)grympy Wrote:
(10-22-2019, 01:15 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Most likely Revelations started out as Jewish Apocalyptic literature... and then underwent extensive jesus freak redaction.

 Really.  Fascinating. I didn't know that. Do you have a source for that information?

http://www.oocities.org/davidmwilliams/ntb519c.html

Try this as a starter.

Revelations actually dates itself:

Quote:King James Bible

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:10

Five fallen are Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero.

One is Galba.

One is yet to come.  The revolts against Galba had begun.  Josephus had declared that Vespasian would be the next emperor.
Bootlicker that he was.

So Galba was murdered in mid January of 69 and allowing for some time for the news to reach Judaea we can estimate that the earliest date for writing this shit was Spring of 69.  By then Vespasian had cut off Jerusalem in a brilliant series of moves that cut off all the roads and was letting the city starve. 

No one in the city except the most diehard religious assholes could have doubted the ultimate result of the Roman siege.

Xtians twist their balls into knots trying to make this into something that fits their bullshit but, then, that is what they always do.  Argument by obfuscation is their best bet!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#9

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 06:46 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
(10-22-2019, 02:06 AM)grympy Wrote:
(10-22-2019, 01:15 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Most likely Revelations started out as Jewish Apocalyptic literature... and then underwent extensive jesus freak redaction.

 Really.  Fascinating. I didn't know that. Do you have a source for that information?

http://www.oocities.org/davidmwilliams/ntb519c.html

Try this as a starter.

Revelations actually dates itself:

Quote:King James Bible

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 17:10

Five fallen are Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero.

One is Galba.

One is yet to come.  The revolts against Galba had begun.  Josephus had declared that Vespasian would be the next emperor.
Bootlicker that he was.

So Galba was murdered in mid January of 69 and allowing for some time for the news to reach Judaea we can estimate that the earliest date for writing this shit was Spring of 69.  By then Vespasian had cut off Jerusalem in a brilliant series of moves that cut off all the roads and was letting the city starve. 

No one in the city except the most diehard religious assholes could have doubted the ultimate result of the Roman siege.

Xtians twist their balls into knots trying to make this into something that fits their bullshit but, then, that is what they always do.  Argument by obfuscation is their best bet!

I guess my only concern here is how do you know that the seven kings are THOSE seven kings and you're not just experiencing confirmation bias about it? They could just as well be made up.

Whenever you see the number seven in the Bible, it is likely not an accidental choice; seven was seen as a portentious symbolic number reflecting completion or perfection or the end of an epoch. To me, the failure to name actual names here reflects what all holy books are about: making vague statements that, even if the original author had someone specific in mind (and here's where you may be right) his contemporaries would know just what he was referring to, but if the prediction didn't pan out, future readers would just project it onto something in their contemporary world, even if they had to torture it to fit. But the number 7 as opposed to, say, 5 or 9, strikes me as deliberate symbolism, too.
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#10

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
christards are like the crapple overlords who claim to have invented the rectangle.
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#11

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 12:50 AM)grympy Wrote:
(10-21-2019, 11:45 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Xtians invented lots of stuff.... including their godboy.

 Indeed.

Hence the radical difference between the YHWH of the Old and New Testaments

To be pedantic, the people who became the Jews  lacked the wit to invent their own god.  They stole YHWH from the Canaanite pantheon and tweaked him  into an utter cunt. 

The christians subsumed YHWH and added Jesus and  the holy spirit to complete the trinity.  They then  put Jesus in charge .

To this  day the more extreme christian sects like to cherrypick the OT to find bits which support their myopic and hateful  world view.   Some  of the truly lunar sects  focus  on the Nt's Book Of Revelations* , to keep recalculating the tend of days. 


*the one  written by it is thought at least two hands . Both of those hands seem to have ingested some form of  hallucinogen.

The trinity and the concept of good and evil goes back to Zoroastrianism. 


The idea that things come in "three'" is as  old as the hills.  It's part of Greek classical art, as in the Three Muses.

[Image: NY-day2_10muses.jpeg]

Aristotle felt strongly that the number three was infused in all things.

Quote:‘All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods; for, as the Pythagoreans say, everything and all things are bounded by threes, for the end, the middle and the beginning have this number in everything, and these compose the number of the Trinity'”

Buddism has several "three's" in their beliefs I'm not sure about Hinduism.

I find it interesting that even today people look for a pattern of "three" in the deaths of celebrities, like it's a magical number.
                                                         T4618
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#12

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
Quote:I guess my only concern here is how do you know that the seven kings are THOSE seven kings and you're not just experiencing confirmation bias about it? They could just as well be made up.


That's what the xhristards try to do.  What is more reasonable?  That someone living in the Roman Empire would know who the rulers of that Empire were and applied them to their situation or that they latched on to Sleepy, Dopey, Doc, Bashful, etc?  ROME was fucking closing in on Jerusalem.  In 67 Vespasian smashed the northern army in Galilee.  In 68 he cut the city off by seizing all the roads leading to it.  The only thing that let the revolt last for 4 years was that the political situation in Rome went to shit when Nero committed suicide in June of 68.  Vespasian marked time ( Jerusalem wasn't going anywhere) while events in Rome sorted themselves out and then made his move for the throne leaving Titus to handle the final assault.

Again we are hampered by not having the original text sans later xtian edits.  It becomes detective work looking for clues as to what may or may not have been in the original.  But if you expect me to buy this "John of Patmos" shit you are barking up the wrong tree.
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#13

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 04:50 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:I guess my only concern here is how do you know that the seven kings are THOSE seven kings and you're not just experiencing confirmation bias about it? They could just as well be made up.


That's what the xhristards try to do. What is more reasonable? That someone living in the Roman Empire would know who the rulers of that Empire were and applied them to their situation or that they latched on to Sleepy, Dopey, Doc, Bashful, etc? ROME was fucking closing in on Jerusalem. In 67 Vespasian smashed the northern army in Galilee. In 68 he cut the city off by seizing all the roads leading to it. The only thing that let the revolt last for 4 years was that the political situation in Rome went to shit when Nero committed suicide in June of 68. Vespasian marked time ( Jerusalem wasn't going anywhere) while events in Rome sorted themselves out and then made his move for the throne leaving Titus to handle the final assault.

Again we are hampered by not having the original text sans later xtian edits. It becomes detective work looking for clues as to what may or may not have been in the original. But if you expect me to buy this "John of Patmos" shit you are barking up the wrong tree.

Well I'm simply suggesting that the most economical explanation is that it was a made up story, whether by John of Patmos of Clyde of Utmost. It matters not.

At any given point in history, there is someone in power, and five people before that who were in power, and one who will shortly be in power, for a total of seven. Whether the author had his current political environment in mind, or was just doing a generic riff, scarcely matters. Since the authorship of the Revelation of Whoever, readers have just applied it in the context of whoever the current ruler was ... or more likely in my mind, they do what I did back in my fundagelical daze, and apply it to a future End of Days scenario that is eternally Just Around the Corner.

I don't think we can confidently date the Revelation based on what it says about seven un-named kings and assuming "fallen" means past rulers of that era and then date the authorship from it. It's a theory, which, together with other evidence, might amount to something, but by itself it doesn't strike me as remotely conclusive.
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#14

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
Quote:Well I'm simply suggesting that the most economical explanation is that it was a made up story, whether by John of Patmos of Clyde of Utmost. It matters not.


Absolutely, but Gone With The Wind was a made up story too but there was still a Civil War and Atlanta did get burned.  Just because someone wrote a novel does not mean that all the facts contained therein were invented.

Here's an example of what I mean.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta...kings.html

This jesus freak asshole decides ( with no fucking evidence whatsoever ) that this is a simple substitution code.  Where the book says "kings" it means "kingdoms." 

Quote:The five kings which had fallen by John’s day (Rev. Rev. 17:10+) appear to represent kingdoms (see #4 - Seven Heads/Kings). Assuming Rome is the kingdom which “is” at the time of John, then five kingdoms precede it and one will follow. We know from the book of Daniel that the three kingdoms which precede Rome are Greece, Medo-Persia, and Babylon (see #8 - Four Beasts/Kings). Yet two more are required. If we limit our scope of inquiry to kingdoms of special relevance to Israel, then two additional candidates immediately come to mind: Assyria and Egypt. Since Israel was born as a nation in the Exodus from Egypt, the five fallen kings represent all fallen kingdoms of significance which oppressed Israel from her birth to John’s time—the time of Rome. The most likely candidates are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.

The five kingdoms of the past are the ones who have persecuted God’s people (Egypt, Eze. Eze. 29:1-Eze. 30:1; Nineveh or Assyria, Nah. Nah. 3:1-19; Babylon, Isa. Isa. 21:9 and Jer. Jer. 50:1-Jer. 51:1; Persia, Dan. Dan. 10:13 and Dan. 11:2; Greece, Dan. Dan. 11:3-4). The persecutor of God’s people during John’s lifetime was Rome. . . . So the angel’s clarifying word to John about the seven heads [Rev. Rev. 17:9-11+] spans essentially the entire history of Gentile world empires.1

I mean anyone can play that game.  If something doesn't say what you want it to say you simply say that it means something else.

Xhristards do that all the time.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#15

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-21-2019, 08:42 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4818218/a...s-founders

Watched this debate, pretty interesting. Seidel made some good points, especially about the golden rule not being a Christian concept and how Christians claim to have invented it when they really didn't.

Christianity is in no way an original  religion . I'm not sure if it has ANY original ideas.  


Hard to believe I know, but the Christians are  either pig ignorant  (as usual) or lying, again.  .
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#16

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 08:02 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Well I'm simply suggesting that the most economical explanation is that it was a made up story, whether by John of Patmos of Clyde of Utmost. It matters not.


Absolutely, but Gone With The Wind was a made up story too but there was still a Civil War and Atlanta did get burned.  Just because someone wrote a novel does not mean that all the facts contained therein were invented.

Here's an example of what I mean.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta...kings.html

This jesus freak asshole decides ( with no fucking evidence whatsoever ) that this is a simple substitution code.  Where the book says "kings" it means "kingdoms." 

Quote:The five kings which had fallen by John’s day (Rev. Rev. 17:10+) appear to represent kingdoms (see #4 - Seven Heads/Kings). Assuming Rome is the kingdom which “is” at the time of John, then five kingdoms precede it and one will follow. We know from the book of Daniel that the three kingdoms which precede Rome are Greece, Medo-Persia, and Babylon (see #8 - Four Beasts/Kings). Yet two more are required. If we limit our scope of inquiry to kingdoms of special relevance to Israel, then two additional candidates immediately come to mind: Assyria and Egypt. Since Israel was born as a nation in the Exodus from Egypt, the five fallen kings represent all fallen kingdoms of significance which oppressed Israel from her birth to John’s time—the time of Rome. The most likely candidates are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.

The five kingdoms of the past are the ones who have persecuted God’s people (Egypt, Eze. Eze. 29:1-Eze. 30:1; Nineveh or Assyria, Nah. Nah. 3:1-19; Babylon, Isa. Isa. 21:9 and Jer. Jer. 50:1-Jer. 51:1; Persia, Dan. Dan. 10:13 and Dan. 11:2; Greece, Dan. Dan. 11:3-4). The persecutor of God’s people during John’s lifetime was Rome. . . . So the angel’s clarifying word to John about the seven heads [Rev. Rev. 17:9-11+] spans essentially the entire history of Gentile world empires.1

I mean anyone can play that game.  If something doesn't say what you want it to say you simply say that it means something else.

Xhristards do that all the time.

This is precisely my point, Min. One can claim it's five fallen kingdoms, five fallen kings, five fallen satanic principalities, five rulers that will fall in the future. All claims are equally valid because we have no way of knowing what was inside the fevered mind of the author (and that's probably a mercy). I just would not date the authorship of the Revelation on ANY of those assumptions. Because that's what they are ... assumptions.

In fairness I can't fault the author of this citation too much since the florid language surrounding this passage is full of metaphors of uncertain provenance; it literally BEGS you to make wild guesses. What, for example, of the ten horns = ten kings who will receive power with the Beast for "an hour"? Is that a literal hour? Likely not, if they're literal kings. It "probably" means "a short time relative to who knows what".

I would not want to date authorship of a document based on a toss-away line in the middle of an acid trip.
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#17

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
It's all we have.

We can't believe anything that the later churchies wrote.
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#18

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-23-2019, 12:29 AM)Minimalist Wrote: It's all we have.

We can't believe anything that the later churchies wrote.

The date of 95 AD that's generally accepted is based on "clues" in the visions supposedly pointing to the reign of Domitian. That is no valid basis either in my view. "All we have" is nothing but the reading of tea leaves, really. It's a book that was written by someone at some point. It would not surprise me to find it's actually from the late 200s or early 300s. But who knows.
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#19

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 02:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: The trinity and the concept of good and evil goes back to Zoroastrianism. 

The were many concepts of "good and evil" and the one you cite is very interesting as it's more akin to the Christian concept, and it's "purification" (from evil) rituals than the Babylonian one, which is more akin to the Hebrew one. It's also interesting as Zoroastrianism had an effect on Mithraism, and Paul came from Tarsis, which was big on Mithraism ... and very probably could be why Christianity bought into what it did. It took some major rearrangement of the deck chairs to get to where Jesus is dying for someone's sins, when that concept was totally not in line with what ancient Hebrews bought into.
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#20

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
You're right.  Just like 1 Clement was dated to 95-96 AD because of the Persecution of Domitian.

There's just one problem.  There was no persecution by Domitian.  This is just later horseshit invented by later church writers trying to justify themselves.

Quote:http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-aki...dnt-happen

Quote:Domitian and the Persecution That Didn’t Happen

I hate to agree with the fucking catholicks, but.....

Quote:Third, in Revelation 17:9-10 we read:
This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads [of the beast] are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while. 
The most natural reading of this is that the kings are the line of Roman emperors, who reigned from Rome’s famous seven hills. The first five emperors were Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. These are the five who are fallen.
The “one [who] is” would be the sixth emperor—Galba—who reigned from June of 68 to January of 69.
The “other [who] has not yet come” would be the seventh emperor—Otho—and he did, indeed, reign “only a little while,” from January of 69 to April of 69—just three months.
This would put the writing of Revelation during the reign of Galba, between June of 68 and January of 69.
Once we detach Revelation from the idea of a non-existent, lethal persecution under Domitian, so much falls into place.


I just found this now when I went looking for an article on Domitian for you.  But it is hardly news..... except to the religiously inclined!  And those idiots believe anything they are told.
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#21

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-22-2019, 08:02 PM)Minimalist Wrote: If something doesn't say what you want it to say you simply say that it means something else.

Especially when said writings are allegedly the word -- or "inspiration", pick your poison -- of  an infallible god who by definition should be perfectly understandable without contradictions arising. A perfect god could speak or "inspire" much more clearly.

Said contradictions giving rise to exactly the retcon you're talking about here.
"What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?" -- Frank Herbert
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#22

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-23-2019, 01:31 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Third, in Revelation 17:9-10 we read:
This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads [of the beast] are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while. 
The most natural reading of this is that the kings are the line of Roman emperors, who reigned from Rome’s famous seven hills. The first five emperors were Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. These are the five who are fallen.
The “one [who] is” would be the sixth emperor—Galba—who reigned from June of 68 to January of 69.
The “other [who] has not yet come” would be the seventh emperor—Otho—and he did, indeed, reign “only a little while,” from January of 69 to April of 69—just three months.
This would put the writing of Revelation during the reign of Galba, between June of 68 and January of 69.
Once we detach Revelation from the idea of a non-existent, lethal persecution under Domitian, so much falls into place.


I just found this now when I went looking for an article on Domitian for you.  But it is hardly news..... except to the religiously inclined!  And those idiots believe anything they are told.

Well its as good a speculation as the next I suppose.

One fly in the ointment I see is, how could the author have accurately predicted the next emperor's rule would be brief? Especially given that Galba's reign was itself relatively brief. It smells of something written after the fact and represented as authored before the fact, so it could appear to be prophetic. Nothing in the quoted line of reasoning precludes the book being authored years, decades or even centuries later.
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#23

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
(10-23-2019, 02:31 AM)mordant Wrote:
(10-23-2019, 01:31 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Third, in Revelation 17:9-10 we read:
This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads [of the beast] are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while. 
The most natural reading of this is that the kings are the line of Roman emperors, who reigned from Rome’s famous seven hills. The first five emperors were Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. These are the five who are fallen.
The “one [who] is” would be the sixth emperor—Galba—who reigned from June of 68 to January of 69.
The “other [who] has not yet come” would be the seventh emperor—Otho—and he did, indeed, reign “only a little while,” from January of 69 to April of 69—just three months.
This would put the writing of Revelation during the reign of Galba, between June of 68 and January of 69.
Once we detach Revelation from the idea of a non-existent, lethal persecution under Domitian, so much falls into place.


I just found this now when I went looking for an article on Domitian for you.  But it is hardly news..... except to the religiously inclined!  And those idiots believe anything they are told.

Well its as good a speculation as the next I suppose.

One fly in the ointment I see is, how could the author have accurately predicted the next emperor's rule would be brief? Especially given that Galba's reign was itself relatively brief. It smells of something written after the fact and represented as authored before the fact, so it could appear to be prophetic. Nothing in the quoted line of reasoning precludes the book being authored years, decades or even centuries later.

Without an original text, but with plenty of evidence that transcribers over the years had agendas, taking it at face-value seems a tad naive.
"What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?" -- Frank Herbert
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#24

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
Quote:One fly in the ointment I see is, how could the author have accurately predicted the next emperor's rule would be brief?

I don't think he did.  There's no way that anyone could have predicted the successful, if brief, rebellions of Otho and Vitellius.  As noted above, Josephus had declared that Vespasian would become emperor.  He was already 60 years old.  In that time period, how much intuitiveness did it take to think that someone would die in their 60's?  Expecting their world to be overrun by the Romans it does not seem as if they cared much beyond the immediate, and dire, future. 

Let's remember the example of the Book of "Daniel."  Prior to 164 BC every event "predicted" happened.  After 164, none of them did.  I wonder when the fucking thing was written?
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#25

Author Debate on the Influence of Christianity on America's Founders
Again, the church has a long, sordid, history of pious frauds! 

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/Plai...toryid=157

Quote:At the period when the popes first acquire temporal power in Italy, in the 8th century, the theory evolves that their new Papal States belong to them anyway. The first Christian emperor, Constantine, is now said to have granted to Silvester I (pope from 314 to 335) the right to rule over Italy and the whole western world.

Holy horseshitters!
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