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Roman invention of Jesus
#1

Roman invention of Jesus
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#2

Roman invention of Jesus
Oh, fuck.... not fucking Atwill again!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#3

Roman invention of Jesus
(10-02-2019, 03:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Oh, fuck.... not fucking Atwill again!

Agreed.

I'd rather have "Jesus didn't exist" then listen to Atwill's bullshit.
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#4

Roman invention of Jesus
He argues that the Flavian dynasty used the Roman propaganda machine to promote some vast counter-Messianic movement for which there isn't the slightest shred of historical evidence prior to Josephus at the very end of the Flavian dynasty. Roman propaganda was never terribly subtle and if it had existed you'd expect it to have left a fairly obvious record. Much like the elephant in my garage this is a case where the absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
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#5

Roman invention of Jesus
(10-02-2019, 05:35 PM)Free Wrote:
(10-02-2019, 03:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Oh, fuck.... not fucking Atwill again!

Agreed.

I'd rather have "Jesus didn't exist" then listen to Atwill's bullshit.

LOL!  You mean for once we agree on something?

How the fuck did that happen?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#6

Roman invention of Jesus
This is tinfoil hat territory.

The Roman government would have had to have been prescient, savvy and nuanced enough to mount a massive subterfuge involving a whole bunch of people over a large span of time, not have it discovered, and not have unintended consequences flow from it.

I don't think we're philosophically and psychologically sophisticated enough to pull that off today, much less 2,000 years ago.

The alternative is simply to crush all opposition. Far simpler and more straightforward, and much clearer what success looks like. And far more Roman.

It also takes far less skill and resources. Trump is a great example: he's ignorant and incompetent but his approach is to just spew bullshit all over everything until people doubt what's right in front of them, and gradually take over a baffled populace by force, if he got far enough with it. That's the way it worked throughout the 20th century with every other despot. Even with sophisticated mass media no one has attempted to plant a new religion to manipulate the public. It's too complicated.

You can argue that despots, including Trump, have leveraged and manipulated existing religion, but not by introducing new beliefs or dogmas, just by figuring out what the religious leaders need / want and getting them to sell their souls for it.
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#7

Roman invention of Jesus
Quote:The Roman government would have had to have been prescient, savvy and nuanced enough to mount a massive subterfuge involving a whole bunch of people over a large span of time, not have it discovered, and not have unintended consequences flow from it.

Agreed but what is even worse is that Atwill totally ignores the historical situation facing Vespasian in 69 AD.  He "won" the civil war but what he won was a bankrupt empire, with its capitol burned out in the final battle, in which he still had Titus' army besieging Jerusalem and had to send Quintus Petillius Cerialis to Batavia to crush a remaining revolt which he did in 70.  Aside from Vespasian's Syrian Army the other major formations of the Roman Empire had backed one or the other of the other would-be emperors and each been defeated in turn.  Those legions had to be rebuilt which also cost money..... a lot of money.  Vespasian was far more concerned with raising money than dealing with the fucking Jews.  He imposed a tax on urine and is reputed to have made the observation "pecunia non olet" ( money does not stink ) when someone complained about the source.  The Romans did two things to the Jews.  One they crushed the revolt in the old fashioned way - by killing as many of them as they could and enslaving a shitload of others.  They also imposed a special tax on the Jews who survived.  Big fucking deal. 

Atwill's fantasy is that Vespasian would have been so worried about a people he had just utterly crushed that he had to create some totally asinine religion.  Vespasian was a soldier.  If the jews had caused trouble again he would have gleefully slaughtered them as he had done before.  The Romans knew how to put down revolts.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#8

Roman invention of Jesus
[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Minimalist:
Oh, fuck.... not fucking Atwill again!

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Free:
Agreed.

I'd rather have "Jesus didn't exist" then listen to Atwill's bullshit.

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Minimalist:
LOL!  You mean for once we agree on something?

How the fuck did that happen?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.[Image: Thumbs%20Up.png]
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#9

Roman invention of Jesus
(10-02-2019, 06:08 PM)Paleophyte Wrote: He argues that the Flavian dynasty used the Roman propaganda machine to promote some vast counter-Messianic movement for which there isn't the slightest shred of historical evidence prior to Josephus at the very end of the Flavian dynasty. Roman propaganda was never terribly subtle and if it had existed you'd expect it to have left a fairly obvious record. Much like the elephant in my garage this is a case where the absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

 Could have been a baby elephant Tongue

 I didn't watch because pretty sure I would have come across that theory if it had any credence. I mean, Min would have cited it for a start. 


The brief description suggests a vast conspiracy , which is an oxymoron.
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#10

Roman invention of Jesus
(10-02-2019, 09:44 PM)no one Wrote: [Image: icon_quote.jpg]Minimalist:
Oh, fuck.... not fucking Atwill again!

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Free:
Agreed.

I'd rather have "Jesus didn't exist" then listen to Atwill's bullshit.

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Minimalist:
LOL!  You mean for once we agree on something?

How the fuck did that happen?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.[Image: Thumbs%20Up.png]


Atwill always reminds me of:

[Image: Schiller-against-stupidity-the-gods-them...-quote.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#11

Roman invention of Jesus
(10-02-2019, 10:45 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(10-02-2019, 09:44 PM)no one Wrote: [Image: icon_quote.jpg]Minimalist:
Oh, fuck.... not fucking Atwill again!

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Free:
Agreed.

I'd rather have "Jesus didn't exist" then listen to Atwill's bullshit.

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Minimalist:
LOL!  You mean for once we agree on something?

How the fuck did that happen?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.[Image: Thumbs%20Up.png]


Atwill always reminds me of:

[Image: Schiller-against-stupidity-the-gods-them...-quote.jpg]
 
Umm, according to believers god must truly love the stupid and wilfully ignorant; he made so many of them.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#12

Roman invention of Jesus
(10-02-2019, 10:45 PM)Minimalist Wrote: [Image: Schiller-against-stupidity-the-gods-them...-quote.jpg]

You probably know ... Schiller wrote the "poem" ... the text .. Beethoven used in the last movement of the 9th Symphony. 
Whistling
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#13

Roman invention of Jesus
The 9th is magnificent but I always thought Beethoven must have had to go take a dump at some point and left writing the 3d movement to a very untalented student.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#14

Roman invention of Jesus
(10-03-2019, 02:32 AM)Minimalist Wrote: The 9th is magnificent but I always thought Beethoven must have had to go take a dump at some point and left writing the 3d movement to a very untalented student.

I haven't listened to it for a while ... it has many echos of the Choral Fantasy and Fidelio, (which may be better).
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#15

Roman invention of Jesus
When you get some time.....



La Chambre Philharmonique - on original instruments.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#16

Roman invention of Jesus
There was a great thread over at AF on (Western) Classical Music.  Alex K started it.  He's another guy who just disappeared from there one day.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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